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Letrange
Minmatar
Chaosstorm Corporation
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.05.12 17:15:00 -
[1]
I.e. Commercial logistics.
There seems to be something missing for enabling the players to scale up carting operations (I.e. moving things from point A to point B). Part of this is the lack of any form of freight forwarding mechanism. Part of this is the lack of third party insurance mechanisms.
The big one for scaling up carting operations is probably some form of freight forwarding mechanism which would allow for hub to hub large volume operations with routing instructions and partial payments along the route. I could see this taking the form in one of two ways:
- The ability to have routed freight contracts with way stops for the cargo and partial payments for each leg of the contract. In this case the original shipper breaks his contract into likely parts.
- The ability to take a full destination contract and sub-contract parts of the route. In this case the corp taking the full contract could for example sub-contract parts of it to various specialized pilots between certain spots. This would allow a cartage specialist to gather shipments in hubs for freighter hauls between major hubs but allow for local collection and distributions near the hubs.
For the insurance I'll leave that one alone for now except for saying I feel that ship and insurance should be handled at the corporate level with specific insurance contracts. This would allow for newbie insurance coverage (by the newbie corps) while at the same time moving all remaining insurance to the player run corporate level. Once insurance is part of the contract system, there could be two types: ship insurance and single trip cargo insurance (yes I'm not a fan of the current insurance mechanism - the current mechanism is basically typical no fault insurance - which is a feature of carebear societies - and is horribly inappropriate to the gritty world that EvE tries to portray).
Any further thoughts on this?
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Chira Netanru
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Posted - 2008.05.12 17:21:00 -
[2]
jump freighters noob
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.05.12 17:27:00 -
[3]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 17:44:05
 Originally by: Chira Netanru
jump freighters noob
To use your JF for a courier contract and risk landing in low sec hot spot is quite dumb, unless the reward is worth it, which I doubt it.
Most of the courier contracts with high reward tend to be ganking traps anyway.
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 17:28:02
Originally by: Chira Netanru
jump freighters noob
To use your JF for a courier contract and risk landing in hot low sec spot is quite dumb, unless the reward is worth it, which I doubt it.
Most of the courier contracts with high reward tend to be ganking traps anyway.
Originally by: Letrange
- The ability to have routed freight contracts with way stops for the cargo and partial payments for each leg of the contract. In this case the original shipper breaks his contract into likely parts.
Any further thoughts on this?
Yes I have a few actually.
It won't be implemented.
If you wanted something ferried from one quadrant of the Universe to another you could just issue successive contracts for 1/3 of the distance each time (if you really want to). Or you could increase the reward heavily and I'm sure there will be those to accept it.
Originally by: Letrange
This would allow a cartage specialist to gather shipments in hubs for freighter hauls between major hubs but allow for local collection and distributions near the hubs.
You do realize that what you suggest allows for a delay in fulfilling the contract? Why not increase the reward and have your package ferried in less than 24h?
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.05.12 17:40:00 -
[4]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 17:33:17
Originally by: Chira Netanru
jump freighters noob
To use your JF for a courier contract and risk landing in low sec hot spot is quite dumb, unless the reward is worth it, which I doubt it.
Most of the courier contracts with high reward tend to be ganking traps anyway.
Which despite the repeated attempt to scam and gank people are surprisingly easy to collect and make money off. |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.05.12 17:42:00 -
[5]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 17:45:53
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 17:33:17
Originally by: Chira Netanru
jump freighters noob
To use your JF for a courier contract and risk landing in low sec hot spot is quite dumb, unless the reward is worth it, which I doubt it.
Most of the courier contracts with high reward tend to be ganking traps anyway.
Which despite the repeated attempt to scam and gank people are surprisingly easy to collect and make money off.
True but still the risk is there. Will you risk a JF just so you can be rewarded with 1/1000 of its value?
If adrenaline is what you're looking for try using a JF to siphon some trit from low sec minmatar space. The potential reward is way greater. The risk is pretty much the same.
Next!
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Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.12 18:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
The only way to lower your risk is using alts to check if the system is empty and then jump near the target station and instantly dock. You could also time your jump so very few people are online (i.e. right after restart).
Later you can use your alt to check if the space around the station is clear. Never done it, dunno if it works but seeing how enthusiastic you are bout it I thought I'd give you a hand 
I'm curious, how do you jump to a system without an alt in it?  Don't give advice when you have no idea how things actually work.
Jumping around low sec in a capital ship (JF's included) is one of the safest means of transport around. I've made at least 100 jumps across almost every low sec region and never come anywhere near loosing my JF or carrier. All it has to do is survive the ~20 seconds before it can dock. In fact, the vast majority of my safety concerns are centered around my cyno alt getting killed. The movement and safety of the JF is almost trivial compared to that of the cyno alt. All the JF has to do is undock, hit the jump button and immediately redock. Anything that's in position to lock and kill it in under ~20 seconds will be noticed by even a half decent pilot. Hence, we have yet to see any JF killmails.
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.05.12 18:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Originally by: YouGotRipped
The only way to lower your risk is using alts to check if the system is empty and then jump near the target station and instantly dock. You could also time your jump so very few people are online (i.e. right after restart).
Later you can use your alt to check if the space around the station is clear. Never done it, dunno if it works but seeing how enthusiastic you are bout it I thought I'd give you a hand
I'm curious, how do you jump to a system without an alt in it? Don't give advice when you have no idea how things actually work.
Jumping around low sec in a capital ship (JF's included) is one of the safest means of transport around. I've made at least 100 jumps across almost every low sec region and never come anywhere near loosing my JF or carrier. All it has to do is survive the ~20 seconds before it can dock. In fact, the vast majority of my safety concerns are centered around my cyno alt getting killed. The movement and safety of the JF is almost trivial compared to that of the cyno alt. All the JF has to do is undock, hit the jump button and immediately redock. Anything that's in position to lock and kill it in under ~20 seconds will be noticed by even a half decent pilot. Hence, we have yet to see any JF killmails.
This pretty much...
And besides, a good majority of the scam contracts and gank contracts are far below freighter requirements. Many often times they fit into a cargo fitted cruiser. So really it's not that difficult to fit a blockade runner and run it out shortly after DT. Collect the pirates money and ferry back with low/null sec goods and resale for profit.
If more people knew how easy it was, the contracts would dry up.
... ohh wait   |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.05.12 19:02:00 -
[8]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 19:04:40
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Originally by: YouGotRipped
The only way to lower your risk is using alts to check if the system is empty and then jump near the target station and instantly dock. You could also time your jump so very few people are online (i.e. right after restart).
Later you can use your alt to check if the space around the station is clear. Never done it, dunno if it works but seeing how enthusiastic you are bout it I thought I'd give you a hand
I'm curious, how do you jump to a system without an alt in it? Don't give advice when you have no idea how things actually work.
How do you check if the destination system is empty if not with the cyno alt that's already there?
Jesus, you're so dumb that from now on I'll detail every post just so I can spare you the effort of repeatedly proving it.
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Chira Netanru
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Posted - 2008.05.12 19:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Hence, we have yet to see any JF killmails.
Actually, Arrow Project lost the first jump freighter, an Anshar IIRC. I don't have an AAR though so not sure if it was actually ganked or lost due to pilot error. It definitely was in null-sec though and not low-sec.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.05.12 19:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 12/05/2008 19:16:09
Originally by: Chira Netanru
Originally by: Kwint Sommer
Hence, we have yet to see any JF killmails.
Actually, Arrow Project lost the first jump freighter, an Anshar IIRC. I don't have an AAR though so not sure if it was actually ganked or lost due to pilot error. It definitely was in null-sec though and not low-sec.
I remember a Rhea being lost too soon after JFs were available.
The thread title was "Guess who just lost a Rhea?"
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Robacz
Essence Trade
Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.05.12 19:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Letrange
I.e. Commercial logistics.
There seems to be something missing for enabling the players to scale up carting operations (I.e. moving things from point A to point B). Part of this is the lack of any form of freight forwarding mechanism. Part of this is the lack of third party insurance mechanisms.
The big one for scaling up carting operations is probably some form of freight forwarding mechanism which would allow for hub to hub large volume operations with routing instructions and partial payments along the route. I could see this taking the form in one of two ways:
- The ability to have routed freight contracts with way stops for the cargo and partial payments for each leg of the contract. In this case the original shipper breaks his contract into likely parts.
- The ability to take a full destination contract and sub-contract parts of the route. In this case the corp taking the full contract could for example sub-contract parts of it to various specialized pilots between certain spots. This would allow a cartage specialist to gather shipments in hubs for freighter hauls between major hubs but allow for local collection and distributions near the hubs.
For the insurance I'll leave that one alone for now except for saying I feel that ship and insurance should be handled at the corporate level with specific insurance contracts. This would allow for newbie insurance coverage (by the newbie corps) while at the same time moving all remaining insurance to the player run corporate level. Once insurance is part of the contract system, there could be two types: ship insurance and single trip cargo insurance (yes I'm not a fan of the current insurance mechanism - the current mechanism is basically typical no fault insurance - which is a feature of carebear societies - and is horribly inappropriate to the gritty world that EvE tries to portray).
Any further thoughts on this?
CCP said they want to add three-party contracts and one of devs spoke about possibility of player driven insurance contracts, so maybe some of your ideas will be possible with these new tools, but only God knows when/if they will be in game.
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Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.05.12 21:52:00 -
[12]
I've never tried setting a courier contract to move another courier contract package, but if you can, there are a lot of possibilities. I think the profitability of freight forwarding limits it more than game mechanics.
I thought it would be fun to start a courier company, but the whole thing becomes decreasingly plausible as you begin to set numbers to it. Mostly that is because everything in eve is a commodity. With very few exceptions, profit from transportation is limited to the difference between prices at the origin and destination. There comes a point at which you are better off selling your old widget over here, buying a new one over there and letting the invisible hand figure out how to move them around. Here is how my reasoning proceeds.
First, termination in low-sec is entirely different from hi-sec hauling, and it has an entirely different (and separate) price. There may be a lot of freight moving long distances in low-sec via jump drives, but that is not a market I am looking to enter any time soon.
Next, consider tritanium. It moves in large quantities, and it has a relatively low value per cubic meter. This type of item (high volume, low isk/m3) is problematic for a pure logistics company. It exists everywhere in any quantity. Suppose you can put 100M tritanium in a freighter. A price difference of 0.5 isk per unit between origin and destination means the movement of that freighter will earn 50M isk. OK, maybe that's worth getting off the couch, but everybody else with a freighter is looking at those price differences every day. Once it becomes worth moving, it generally moves on its own. The only money to be made by sending tritanium via courier (less the market defined cost of haulage) is in the difference between buy and sell orders.
The same is true more or less for any item bought and sold in bulk. It's usually pretty cost effective to just drop it in hi-sec and let it drift along the price gradient.
So let's consider the opposite cargo, small things that are expensive. Suppose you have a named module (5.0 m3) that you can sell in Jita for 10M more than you could in the back-woods system where it dropped. That thing might be worth moving, but how? Generally, you want to get it into the hold of a ship that is going that way anyway. If you're lucky, the player you ganked to get it will haul it for you on his way to get a new one. If not, you can move it out to an autopilot route and wait for a freighter to come by.
So where can a logistics company fit in? Maybe you can split up the route, one contract to a shipping hub and another to Jita. Maybe you could make money on that. From what little I've seen of contract prices, though, the odds would be against you. The most expensive parts seem to be the deposit and getting someone to actually dock and pick it up, not the jumps.
Maybe you could make money by delivering such packages between hubs. You would have to convince your customers to make other arrangements for the final jumps. That might be doable. Still, though, suppose you manage to pack a freighter with 200k packages with 100M deposit each. That would be what? 20 quadrillion isk? Every time I jumped I'd feel like the guy in Dr. Strangelove who rides the atomic bomb all the way to the ground, screaming "YE-HAW" and waving his hat.
With or without a change to the game mechanics, I think there is room in the market for logistics companies, but I think they would need to focus more on total supply chain management. To me, it seems awfully hard to compete with freelance couriers.
Cheers,
Brisco Smiley
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