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DaddyS	Posted - 2004.04.30 09:57:00 - [1] I have to decide for an Interceptor race soon and I saw the discussions about frigs loosing cruise missiles. What is the latest on that? If the interceptors can't carry cruises anymore, the Caldari intercepors would just be useless. Do I see this right? Or do you have any other information?
Loka	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Loka on 30/04/2004 10:11:59 Originally by: DaddyS I have to decide for an Interceptor race soon and I saw the discussions about frigs loosing cruise missiles. What is the latest on that? If the interceptors can't carry cruises anymore, the Caldari intercepors would just be useless. Do I see this right? Or do you have any other information? I completely disagree. If CM are taken from frigs they wont able to kill a large ship in few numbers anymore. Pirates cant also do kamikazeKestrelKILLSIndy attacks. Frigates are no dmgdealer they are supportships and they do this job well. Dont know why everyone is whinning. In mix fleets they are still worth. They can attack drones, Scramble BS, Webb BS and do any nasty thing they want. They are fast locking Scramblers hard to hit. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
DeerHunter GE	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:39:00 - [3] Edited by: DeerHunter GE on 30/04/2004 10:43:17 If you use two Heavy missiles instead of one cruise you do at least the same amount of damage. Sure Cruise missile has better range and speed etc. but in therms of killing BS is no difference between Cruise Missiles and Heavys Edit.... The short targeting range of Frigs prevents to use the major advantage of the Cruise Missiles.......the range! My Conclusion, i don't care about this because i won't fit Cruise missiles onto an frig at all Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you!
DaddyS	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:43:00 - [4] do i see it right, that the decision "no cruises on frigs" has been taken?
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:44:00 - [5] No such decision is official. Pain is meant to be felt
Estios	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:49:00 - [6] Cruise missles on frigs HAVE to go IMHO No 1 BS can kill another BS in a single volley No 1 Cruiser can kill another cruiser in one volley A Kestrel can potentially kill 1 and half (if that makes sense) Frigates in 1 volley. Its stoopid and unbalanced. So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
Jazz Bo	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:53:00 - [7] Originally by: DeerHunter GE Edited by: DeerHunter GE on 30/04/2004 10:43:17 If you use two Heavy missiles instead of one cruise you do at least the same amount of damage. Not "at least", almost. Cruises get a damage bonus per skill level, Heavies don't. Originally by: DB Preacher Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.04.30 10:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Estios Cruise missles on frigs HAVE to go IMHO No 1 BS can kill another BS in a single volley No 1 Cruiser can kill another cruiser in one volley A Kestrel can potentially kill 1 and half (if that makes sense) Frigates in 1 volley. Its stoopid and unbalanced. Missile frigates can be countered though Estios. Something that can be countered isn't unbalanced. Also a Full Torp volley from a Caracal can kill 1 cruiser. Should torps be removed from Cruisers then? It's not that simple, people. Pain is meant to be felt
DeathBunny	Posted - 2004.04.30 14:39:00 - [9] A full torp volly might beable to kill some cruisers but not all. Kestrel can kill basically all frigates in 1 volly without a problem (1200 damage min). Caracal Torps (2250 Damage) this takes down shields and most armor 1 one shot Cruise (1500 Damage min) this takes down shields and partial armor *Fear The Bunny*
Valerien	Posted - 2004.04.30 15:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: Estios Cruise missles on frigs HAVE to go IMHO No 1 BS can kill another BS in a single volley No 1 Cruiser can kill another cruiser in one volley A Kestrel can potentially kill 1 and half (if that makes sense) Frigates in 1 volley. Its stoopid and unbalanced. Missile frigates can be countered though Estios. Something that can be countered isn't unbalanced. Also a Full Torp volley from a Caracal can kill 1 cruiser. Should torps be removed from Cruisers then? It's not that simple, people. true, just fit 2 shield hardeners for each damage type, and you'll counter the missile boat threat! searches for that frig with 8 mid slots... i know I saw it around here somewhere...
Damajink	Posted - 2004.04.30 15:25:00 - [11] Edited by: Damajink on 30/04/2004 15:29:16 The Kestrel is ultimately the loser in frig vs frig combat with cruise missiles. A Rifter can easily kill a Kestrel - two cruise missiles are enough to kill, if not severely damage another frigate. The Kestrel might be able to fit more cruise missiles on it, but it is not fast enough to outrun the missiles (unless you fit overdrives and two MWDs or something, but then you aren't sustainable). A Kestrel can launch 4 missiles at another frigate, but that other frigate (unless it's Caldari) can outrun them. Sure, if you've got high skills and fit it out, you might be able to outrun them, but it's just not worth it because any other frig you come up against will flee from your missiles while popping a couple off in your direction.....of course, this scenario usually ends up with both ships dead EDIT: I'm assuming both ships are using webifiers - if only the Kestrel has a webber then of course it will win
Meridius	Posted - 2004.04.30 20:15:00 - [12] A kestrel can potentially take out 2 frigates in 1 volley i think :) Personally, i don't think that cruise/heavy missles should be removed from frigates. It's far too much fun :D Perhaps more skill requirements for cruise missles? Missle Launcher 5 takes almost a week, perhaps tag another week onto that and we would see less new players making the rush for cruise missles. All i know is that frigate combat is fun because of cruise missles, remove them from frigates and you'll be sitting there trying to shoot each other with small turrets and moving at 2km/s. This would also make frigates sole scrams/webbers in fleet combat as well. ________________________________________________________
Ronyo Dae'Loki	Posted - 2004.04.30 20:18:00 - [13] If they remove CMs from frigs, I will no longer need to fear encountering a Crow with my Taranis. That being said, I don't want CMs being removed from frigs. It'd be stupid. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . )
Herophant	Posted - 2004.04.30 21:19:00 - [14] Originally by: DeerHunter GE Edited by: DeerHunter GE on 30/04/2004 10:43:17 If you use two Heavy missiles instead of one cruise you do at least the same amount of damage. Sure Cruise missile has better range and speed etc. but in therms of killing BS is no difference between Cruise Missiles and Heavys Edit.... The short targeting range of Frigs prevents to use the major advantage of the Cruise Missiles.......the range! My Conclusion, i don't care about this because i won't fit Cruise missiles onto an frig at all So if we take half the dmg from bs and cruiser guns it will make no difference?
Herophant	Posted - 2004.04.30 21:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Estios Cruise missles on frigs HAVE to go IMHO No 1 BS can kill another BS in a single volley No 1 Cruiser can kill another cruiser in one volley A Kestrel can potentially kill 1 and half (if that makes sense) Frigates in 1 volley. Its stoopid and unbalanced. The fun with this game is the way that ship types are not S M and L ships. I dont want a S bs. I like the way a frig is totaly different from other ship types. Go play Lineage 2. I hear that game is linear.
Garrik Shelt	Posted - 2004.05.01 11:24:00 - [16] I don't think that cruise missles are a problem either, sure u can kill another frigate w/ one volley of cruises, but 1: that is expensive, and 2: it's a frigate! Yes, it would be lame for those who fly crows if we lose Cruise missles, as they have 3 missle slots, but they don't get the bonus to targetting range, so a kestrel will still be better for missles. If you wanna just shoot cruise missles, use a kestral. Interceptors are for speed and close range fighting, cruise missles are for long range fighting. --------------------------------------------------------- Those who live by the sword, die by those who don't
Agent Shield	Posted - 2004.05.01 12:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Garrik Shelt ..., cruise missles are for long range fighting. Ok, so it is 5:00 AM here where I am, but that is funny. Agent Shield
Nighthawk	Posted - 2004.05.01 13:27:00 - [18] Edited by: Nighthawk on 01/05/2004 13:32:39 arent they reworking cruise so they no longer hit frigates??? imo the whole problem stems from the fact missles werent thought thru...... rockets/light missles need to go about 5000m/sec so they can catch mwding frigates. this would make them the missle to use against other frigates. cruise should be anti capital ship weapons. imo frigates should retain their ability to use cruise, as removing it would seriously hurt caldari, and would make the caldari interceptors useless..... a taranis with blasters already outdamages a crow....... besides, we should retain our ability to inflict pain on bigger ships, cause just webbing/scrambling in fleet battles is a tad boring...... oh yea, and if they are boosting light missles.......i want chaff/flares on my frigates so i can use my manuverability to avoid them by spraying out flares :) --- All hail to the mighty space hamster!!! ---
Karhig Duruckhai	Posted - 2004.05.01 14:20:00 - [19] I'm with the guy above. The problem doesn't lie with Frigates being able to fire cruise missiles, the problem lies with the cruise missiles themselves being able to hit frigates in the first place. Frigates not being able to fire cruise missiles would partly solve the symptoms, but not cure the cause. Just make it so that frigs cant be hit by cruise, that way a frigate needs to use heavies, making frigate fights longer and more interesting whilst not completly nerfing a frigates ability to take on and take down an unwary cruiser. Cruisers already have the defence needed to protect themselves against frigs, they're called drones. Use them, learn how they're effective, and you'll go far. You can also jam all interceptors and most frigates pretty easily, and dampen them even easier so they need to get so close they could get out and place the cruise missile on your hull. By dampening them you also often force the foolish frigate pilot into coming close enough that you can web them. A webbed frigate is a dead frigate. As for Battleships being taken down by a swarm of frigs. You deserve if for wandering around in a battleship unsupported. DON'T DO IT! Battleships are long range capital ships. They're not meant to be taken out on their own, they will die, and they deserve to die. regards,
Shintoko Akahoshi	Posted - 2004.05.01 17:37:00 - [20] Personally I think denying cruise missiles to frigates would be a mistake. They aren't unbalanced against other frigates as all high-end frigates (Incursus, Rifter, etc) can easily be fitted to outrun the things. In order to kill one of these frigates with cruise missiles you need to webbify it, which is the number one disadvantage to using cruise missiles against other frigates (not that most people realize this, nor do they take advantage of it). I don't even think that they need an agility change (I'm assuming that a cruise missile with poor agility would still be able to hit a webbed frigate). What I would like to see would be faster small missiles. The way it stands now, nobody uses light or heavy missiles unless they don't have the skill for cruise missiles (or they want to save some isk). If heavy missiles went something like 3 km/s and light went 5 km/s it would make frigate combat much more interesting. Just my own 0.02 isk, of course... There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.05.01 20:18:00 - [21] (Cruise) Missiles are getting a bit of a change towards the speedier side as the Caldari missile ships were obviously suffering from missile slowness. That in long range combat their missiles would never reach target. What will happen is you'll have Cruise missiles going at top speed of 6km/s, and that at slow speeds they'll be turning really badly. This has the effect that the missiles will not really hit close range targets, as their flight time will also get halved. Remain to question is if not the close range rockets and light missiles should not get a boost instead of allowing frigates to haul around Cruise Missiles. It's going to be hard to balance cruise missiles for effectiveness of both Battleship class and frigate class ships. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Neverblu	Posted - 2004.05.04 19:50:00 - [22] speaking of taranis out damaging a crow, here's one of the screens a friend posted here http://myeve.eve-online.com/screenshots/?screenID=4039 o.O
Baun	Posted - 2004.05.04 22:24:00 - [23] I went over this ad nauseum in the other post I made. I will state this in the simplest terms possible: Heavy missles as they currently are, are simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH to be valid anti-frigate weapons (and light missles are laughably useless). The damage over time is low (CMs already have a low DOT compared to many turret frigs), and they hit things even less frequently than CMs do now. If CMs are taken from frigates and other missles are otherwise left unchanged then the kestrel, breacher, crow, and the new bombers will be entirely useless. This is most certainly the case with the crow. If a crow does not have cruise missles it is not a viable interceptor .. it is just a glorified warp scrambling/webbing *****. CMs can be countered easily by frigates as it stands now. A single volley of CMs will almost never kill a well equipped frigate pilot (and in many cases simply cannot). The kestrel is so slow that it really is not a viable anti-frigate platform against smart frigate pilots anyway. The Crow is a ship that is, by definition, supposed to be an anti-frigate platform. Unless standard missle launchers are changed such that they can hold more heavy missles, fire faster, and heavy missle speed is increased (to at least what CM speed is right now), removing CMs will render useless all missle frigates in the context of frigate vs frigate fights. The Enemy's Gate is Down
feroci0us	Posted - 2004.05.04 23:33:00 - [24] Edited by: feroci0us on 05/05/2004 15:38:33 since this picture has been removed -edited -feroci0us. Proud Member of the Fountain Alliance
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.05.04 23:33:00 - [25] I don't know, Braun, but it seem to me that turrets are doing a very good job of taking down frigs right now, and that leaves missiles in a bit of a different role. But, I'll just say it again: why not make the low-end missiles worth the while instead? Standard launcher could hold three or four heavy missiles without really upsetting things too much, as long as they may still not hit things very well at short range... (what are rockets for, anyway, if not to kill frigates?) -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Baun	Posted - 2004.05.05 00:03:00 - [26] Well, if missles aren't supposed to take donw frigates, I kindly ask the devs to give the crow 3 turret slots instead of 3 missle slots and to give it a turret bonus. Interceptors with missles are still intended to be interceptors. Rockets are short range, blasteresque missle. Currently they are crap and are worthless (especially given their damage and flight time). Perhaps if these were made useful and if the crow was given a damage bonus for them then the crow could become a taranis like interceptor. This merits SOME thought. The issue is that making such a change, changes the crows role almost completely. As such, rockets aren't really a viable replacement for cruise missles. Heavy missles might be ... but they need serious changes in order for that to be the case. No one in their right mind can seriously believe that standard missle launchers + heavy missles is a viable combination at the moment. The Enemy's Gate is Down
ZelRox	Posted - 2004.05.05 00:52:00 - [27] Kestrel cant kill ***. Except a lone indy or a shuttle. You can just laugh at pilots that use kestrels in frig vs frig combat. ---------------------- I wanna tuc tuc ..*
Baun	Posted - 2004.05.05 02:28:00 - [28] They can also kill stupid frigate pilots, but thats about it. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Latex Mistress	Posted - 2004.05.05 10:00:00 - [29] Stick to the post, people! The last thing we need is another "what frig is worth a d@## without CM's" thread... He asked two things: 1) what the latest on CM nerfing was (no decision has been finalized that I know of) 2) will the Caldari Interceptors be useless without them? (well they certainly can't use lasers...) Regardless, none of this has ANYTHING do to with Kestrals, 1on1 w/ Cruisers, etc, etc, etc... If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
OFFT	Posted - 2004.05.05 12:02:00 - [30] Edited by: OFFT on 05/05/2004 12:08:06 Edited by: OFFT on 05/05/2004 12:06:11 Will post a link to another thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=78040 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=78168 But for now .. Interceptors : So far they work on NPC upto Moa's as a one on one for me. Yes with cruise. Consider the Balance changes in Dev Blog.... If these changes come to pass then maybe cruise wont be needed cos Moa's will struggle to hit me...But I will need more ammo I expect. Interceptors are like any ship in the game : Good while it lasts. All are subject to changes. I used to really love my Blackbird. They changed it I moved on. I admit I never crunch numbers : I just play as it comes. OFFT FORM LIFE :SIMPLE IN A COMPLICATED WAY Some players make EVE history : Other players are EVE history "We cant all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and and clap as they go by" scooooshcrumpzerump (c) Random RandomnesesesesÖ

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