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Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 02:46:00 - [1] One of the dev's seems to think Factional Warfare is going to Originally by: CCP Atropos open new markets and oppurtunities. Enterprising Corporations and Alliances can profit from being able to shift larger amounts of hardware and have the financial backbone to fund various projects in the new warzones. New market hubs will appear as the trade routes suffer and there will be increased demand as conflict rages. Here's the source of that quote. Here's the first tidbits about Factional Warfare. Apparently we get a new region of Caldari low sec. Personally I'm looking forward to the casual PVP it offers and so long as I'm there I might just put a few buy orders and ship the stuff back in my JF. My concern is that I won't be the only one and in short order the margins won't warrant the trouble. There will probably be a bit better margins on shipping stuff in but only on the big items and moving battleships around gets labor intensive; fuel intensive too if your using a JF. So, what do you think this will do for the market? Will it mean new opportunities, new IPOs and better margins or is it simply too small to make a difference? Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.15 02:57:00 - [2] Edited by: Professor Leech on 15/05/2008 02:58:25 That's interesting they're actually making a real pvp zone with a reason to be there. We're going to see some pretty strange combinations of corps and alliances fighting side by side. One issue that concerns me is how it'll be balanced. You know, to stop everyone joining the winning side. Market edit: It will generate a lot of demand for war supplies with easy high sec access. I'll have to think about how this will impact the market a bit more.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:06:00 - [3] Alliances won't be able to participate at first which makes sense. If you let the big boys play they'd park capital fleets there and things would quickly go from fun, casual PVP to 600 in local, insane lag and a titan DD'ing your gang. Also, you have to declare your support for one of the 4 empires and as you fight for them I imagine your standings will reflect it so there's no jumping to the other side once you've fought for their enemy. I would also assume that any ISK to be gained from PVP missions would dry up once you've conquered the region so while one side can 'win' by having everyone join them or give up there's no point to fighting after that happens. Thus they wonder off and presumably Gallente pilots will return, take some space back and things start all over again. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:10:00 - [4] Even if allainces cant "officially" join, trust me when I say there will be plenty of Cap Ships in that area, doing MoM bombing tactics and such. The whole area will just turn into the fun that is places like Rancer. --
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:11:00 - [5] I really really want to be optimistic/excited about this, but I'm somewhat skeptical. If the idea is to put a low-sec gulf back between the various empires, I really think the effect will only be to pack more people into Caldari space. Instead of telling noobs to go to Jita, people will tell noobs "oh just change your mission running/agent/etc to be permanently in Caldari space." Maybe if you put Motsu and Jita on the opposite sides of the gulf you'd get something interesting. Then again, maybe one hub would just win out.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:12:00 - [6] As to what it will do to the market, well I think the thing that has the most potential to stimulate the market, investments and other isk making things is the introduction of new moons that will have the potential to posses the ultra high end moon minerals. --
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Shakuul I really really want to be optimistic/excited about this, but I'm somewhat skeptical. If the idea is to put a low-sec gulf back between the various empires, I really think the effect will only be to pack more people into Caldari space. Instead of telling noobs to go to Jita, people will tell noobs "oh just change your mission running/agent/etc to be permanently in Caldari space." Maybe if you put Motsu and Jita on the opposite sides of the gulf you'd get something interesting. Then again, maybe one hub would just win out. Reading Comprehension -10 Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Shakuul I really really want to be optimistic/excited about this, but I'm somewhat skeptical. If the idea is to put a low-sec gulf back between the various empires, I really think the effect will only be to pack more people into Caldari space. Instead of telling noobs to go to Jita, people will tell noobs "oh just change your mission running/agent/etc to be permanently in Caldari space." Maybe if you put Motsu and Jita on the opposite sides of the gulf you'd get something interesting. Then again, maybe one hub would just win out. Because of the whole "opt in" statements from all commenting Dev's I doubt that any of this Low Sec will "have" to be traversed to go between all the main racial hubs of empire. I ofc could be wrong, but the outcry and potential loss of subscribers if you forced pilots to travel through low sec choke points to move between opposing empires would be a extreme blow to CCP's bottom line. --
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:28:00 - [9] Edited by: Professor Leech on 15/05/2008 03:29:53 Edited by: Professor Leech on 15/05/2008 03:29:05 I think the mechanics controlling the behaviour are going to be very important. I've been on grid with 350 people, desyncs, titan pilots targeting me, avoiding multiple DDD activations and the lag etc is not fun. Most multiplayer pvp games (not MMOs) have a limit to the number of people per server (mission, or however you would provide a mechanic for the sake for decent performance). There needs to be a method for "rounds" to occur. I have seen cough battlegrounds where the fight doesn't end for days going back and forth. My preference method for limiting "rounds" in CTF style pvp is by time. Otherwise people spend too much time hogging the area with no conclusion (read as boring). There are most probably going to be staging areas defined by faction standings and these will be critical for trade due to the raw demand for supplies. Expect people to fit out large numbers of ships to have on standby to get back into the action. One question is what's to stop pvpers from completely camping out the area so that the faction warfare system is never used or regularly shut down? The concept that alliances aren't a part of faction warfare would be made ridiculous if an alliance jump bridged a fleet of 200+ ships into the system. They wouldn't even need to engage all they would need to do is warp around the system to lag out the node. I can see a lot of things going wrong if they don't put in game mechanics to address the issues.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:35:00 - [10] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 15/05/2008 03:35:58 You all realise that it's not 100% centered around low sec right? Personally when I get spare minutes I'm going to hang round the high traffic hi sec systems in a stealth bomber looking for soft targets. But that's just me... Also a lot of people seem to be thinking Black Rise is the home of factional warfare. It's not. Black Rise was put in just to make caldari space more accessible in terms of low sec connections. Improve Market Competition!
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 15/05/2008 03:35:58 You all realise that it's not 100% centered around low sec right? Personally when I get spare minutes I'm going to hang round the high traffic hi sec systems in a stealth bomber looking for soft targets. But that's just me... Also a lot of people seem to be thinking Black Rise is the home of factional warfare. It's not. Black Rise was put in just to make caldari space more accessible in terms of low sec connections. My bad if I have the wrong idea. I thought that there were changing the factional warfare system to centre around one area. Thereby making a dedicated zone to provide more action and targets without having to make 50 jumps to find something to shoot at. If factional warfare is spread across all of empire then in effect they're building a Privateers style mechanism into the game. I'm hoping for some features to add more action and fast objectives into pvp. Basically if ccp aren't adding anything to the quality of pvp then I won't bother with factional warfare.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:55:00 - [12] Quote: If factional warfare is spread across all of empire then in effect they're building a Privateers style mechanism into the game. I'm hoping for some features to add more action and fast objectives into pvp. Basically if ccp aren't adding anything to the quality of pvp then I won't bother with factional warfare. It's not just a "Team up with this side and shoot the targets". Basically there's missions, rewards, ranks, all sorts of stuff that'll be talked about in devblogs. Basically I imagine a very simple "mission" to be like this: Caldari Mission: I want you to destroy 10 gallente pod-pilot ships. Return to me with their "dogtags" <enter piece of coding which makes people signed up to factional warfare drop "dogtags" when they die, pewpew 10 ships later> Thanks, here's your reward. And that's just a cooked up PvP mission. There's going to be elements of PvE (apparently dogtags for LP rewards will be plentiful), and they've directly said you can complete missions by battling or sneaking your way through player-enemies. The Privateers scenario is one CCP were probably reluctant to ditch, FW gives you an opt-in for that. No, you cant head over newbie grounds and stomp them once you're in because those newbies won't have joined FW yet. But hopefully my shambles of an explanation above gives why this'll be damn cool. Improve Market Competition!
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:06:00 - [13] Evidently I need to clear up some misconceptions. They're not changing the existing stargate network or existing sec statuses. They are, however, adding a region, Black Rise, to accommodate factional warfare. I don't know why you concluded that they were converting the space between empires to low sec but that was never stated or even suggested. Further, it is not explicately stated that it will occur in Black Rise and only in Black Rise but its a reasonable conclusion from this statement, Originally by: CCP Greyscale Oh, and Black Rise One last little thing, when we were sketching out the combat areas for all this stuff, we kept running into one brick wall in particular: Caldari low sec space, well, kind of sucks. Specifically, there isn't much of it, and what there is, is mostly in the wrong place (i.e. well away from the Gallente border). This is, for a system which needs decent expanses of lowsec space between the Empires, a problem. So we looked at the map and decided that there was room for a bit more. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:10:00 - [14] A lot of ammo/module/ship production will move to the frontline stations nearest the warzones. Hopefully CCP will have lots of slots in those stations. If lots of people fight in those areas then most new people tend to fight in throw away ships, until they understand whats going on. Look for the demand for frigates and cruisers to increase significantly. Cheap throw away modules like simple webs, scrams, 1MN AB/MWD, simple guns and standard missile/rocket launchers to be flying off the shelves. In fact most T1 ships which are nearly covered by insurance payout, the demand COULD spike significantly. I will certainly have a clone and lots ships to burn through in the zone.
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:17:00 - [15] Does anyone think that if this Factional warfare takes off it could create a new trading hub. I am certainly thinking there is a chance in a Caldari station relatively near the frontlines?
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:42:00 - [16] Originally by: cosmoray Does anyone think that if this Factional warfare takes off it could create a new trading hub. I am certainly thinking there is a chance in a Caldari station relatively near the frontlines? It think there is a level of certainty that trade hubs will form around any "staging areas". You might even get a high sec and low sec hub for each factional warfare zone. One concept that always bugs me is that MMO pvp always gets linked with pve. For example your sec status is a symbol of how much you pve. One person could have -10 sec status because the never pve and another could have 4.9 even though they pvp the same as the other person but spend too much time ratting. I would like a separation of the pvp content from the pve content in factional warfare. If you want to pvp only then let people do it. They shouldn't be forced to pve grind to pvp unless they need the isk. Otherwise this potential for pvp (and the resulting boost in consumption) will end up like the COSMOS content.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.15 04:50:00 - [17] Quote: I would like a separation of the pvp content from the pve content in factional warfare. If you want to pvp only then let people do it. They shouldn't be forced to pve grind to pvp unless they need the isk. Otherwise this potential for pvp (and the resulting boost in consumption) will end up like the COSMOS content. You only lose sec status if you're engaging in criminal acts. Engaging people through FW is not a criminal act. I really think there's a lot of misconceptions of what FW will actually mean in terms of game mechanics out there... The PvE side of FW is provide people with a reason to fight (that isn't just to fill the alliances fat pockets) Improve Market Competition!
Power Sauce	Posted - 2008.05.15 05:29:00 - [18] I think you're missing what I am saying. I concept of pvp being directly linked to pve is a broken concept. The sec status system is a fail of an idea and even ccp have indicated possible changes to it. What I am talking about are ideas. I really don't care what ccp's idea of factional warfare is. What I want is something that actually works when it's deployed and functions as intended. What people are describing so far won't work and will provide entertainment for a minority. If I head out to pvp I don't want to spent my time shooting at rats I want to shoot at other players. The only reason that I can imagine that the control points would be placed in low sec is so that capital ships can get involved. Originally by: Kylar Renpurs The PvE side of FW is provide people with a reason to fight (that isn't just to fill the alliances fat pockets) What you have said is a good reason for pvpers to not be involved with factional warfare at all. The pve aspect of eve is in fact the worst part of the game, ratting boring, combat missions repetitive boring and less creative than running 4 courier missions at once. Why would pvpers fight for stuff that they don't want to do?
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.15 05:30:00 - [19] Alt posted for me again.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.05.15 05:48:00 - [20] If it works as intended.... this would mean an increase in demand of Ammunition, Modules, and Ships. Especially ships and Modules, since more of them will be dying.....
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.15 06:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Power Sauce I think you're missing what I am saying. I concept of pvp being directly linked to pve is a broken concept. The sec status system is a fail of an idea and even ccp have indicated possible changes to it. As I said, attacking people in factional warfare won't result in a sec status hit. So any complaints about sec status being an issue in this are false. Quote: What I am talking about are ideas. I really don't care what ccp's idea of factional warfare is. What I want is something that actually works when it's deployed and functions as intended. What people are describing so far won't work and will provide entertainment for a minority. Highlighting your problem here. You've shot it down before it's even here. Quote: If I head out to pvp I don't want to spent my time shooting at rats... That would not be the focus of factional warfare. If you read the devblogs and info portal, you'll find that achieving the goals of FW will require PvP than anything. Quote: What you have said is a good reason for pvpers to not be involved with factional warfare at all. The pve aspect of eve is in fact the worst part of the game, ratting boring, combat missions repetitive boring and less creative than running 4 courier missions at once. Why would pvpers fight for stuff that they don't want to do? As above. Let me ask you something: Is getting a transport ship full of ammo from hi sec to the middle of hostile 0.0 space "PvP"? It certainly is for the people who try and stop you, so how is it not for the person involved? But the situation I cooked up, one of you going to your factions mission dealer who says "Right, go get 20 gallente dogtags for a reward",, the end result is you gotta go out and pew pew 20 people from the opposing side. What's not PvP about that? I think you've got a pretty distorted view of what Factional Warfare will be, and you won't actually see my point at all. All I can suggest is that you forget what you think about it and re-read the current devblogs and info portal. More importantly, wait for the devblogs on combat to come out before you say it's broken. Improve Market Competition!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.15 06:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Power Sauce I think you're missing what I am saying. I concept of pvp being directly linked to pve is a broken concept. The sec status system is a fail of an idea and even ccp have indicated possible changes to it. What I am talking about are ideas. I really don't care what ccp's idea of factional warfare is. What I want is something that actually works when it's deployed and functions as intended. What people are describing so far won't work and will provide entertainment for a minority. If I head out to pvp I don't want to spent my time shooting at rats I want to shoot at other players. The only reason that I can imagine that the control points would be placed in low sec is so that capital ships can get involved. Originally by: Kylar Renpurs The PvE side of FW is provide people with a reason to fight (that isn't just to fill the alliances fat pockets) What you have said is a good reason for pvpers to not be involved with factional warfare at all. The pve aspect of eve is in fact the worst part of the game, ratting boring, combat missions repetitive boring and less creative than running 4 courier missions at once. Why would pvpers fight for stuff that they don't want to do? 1) read the blog instead of commenting other people comments; 2) you may dislike it but no one force you to participate, other peoples will like a mix of PvP/PvE; 3) for the poster about "only the new region". Wrong, read the blog, you can engage members of the other faction anywhere in EVE. Some low sec region could have changes in sovereignty (because of the FW victory/losses) between the empires, but Caldari hadn't a region of low sec that CCP thought had the right characteristics for that, so they added one.
Shakuul Caldari Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.15 06:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Reading Comprehension -10
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.15 08:09:00 - [24] It would be interesting to know, where exactly those "combat sites" will be. If I understand it correctly, they will be static, distributed through lowsecs. Most of fighting will occur there, becouse these "sites" give out points used to gain control of the system. Highsec stations close to these sites could become nice selling points. Besides that, it seems that small-scale FW combat will be spread all over Eve (unless FW missions define where enemies needs to be killed).
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.15 08:31:00 - [25] Quote: Highsec stations close to these sites could become nice selling points. Besides that, it seems that small-scale FW combat will be spread all over Eve (unless FW missions define where enemies needs to be killed). Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if the cure to "blobs" will be the fact that there'll be so many points to capture, you won't be able to hold them all, and they key to "winning" factional warfare will be to go where there aren't people, but an alternative to winning will be to also go where there are people. sounds like it counters itself, but it's why people should just wait and see, even i'm speculating a bit. Improve Market Competition!
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.15 11:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Venkul Mul 1) read the blog instead of commenting other people comments; 2) you may dislike it but no one force you to participate, other peoples will like a mix of PvP/PvE; 3) for the poster about "only the new region". Wrong, read the blog, you can engage members of the other faction anywhere in EVE. Some low sec region could have changes in sovereignty (because of the FW victory/losses) between the empires, but Caldari hadn't a region of low sec that CCP thought had the right characteristics for that, so they added one. 1) I don't need your permission to get involved in a discussion. Just because something is in a ccp blog doesn't mean that it's set in stone or will work. 2) Yes I realise this and I acknowledge your view. 3) Please read my previous posts where you notice that I understand that. However, I think the current FW idea could be significantly improved from that discussed. You can kiss ccp's behind as much as you like but they have a history of making a number of bad mistakes especially in balancing. If me helping some lively discussion somehow offends you then that is your issue. Now back to the market side of the discussion; would the MD dwellers prefer spread out FW or concentrated areas of FW in relation to providing war supplies?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.15 12:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Robacz It would be interesting to know, where exactly those "combat sites" will be. If I understand it correctly, they will be static, distributed through lowsecs. Most of fighting will occur there, becouse these "sites" give out points used to gain control of the system. Highsec stations close to these sites could become nice selling points. Besides that, it seems that small-scale FW combat will be spread all over Eve (unless FW missions define where enemies needs to be killed). What is amusing about this is that it will change nothing with the current market Hubs as there already exists high profit high turn over in gateway stations. Torrinos comes to mind
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.15 19:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Venkul Mul 1) read the blog instead of commenting other people comments; 1) I don't need your permission to get involved in a discussion. Just because something is in a ccp blog doesn't mean that it's set in stone or will work. ... If me helping some lively discussion somehow offends you then that is your issue. As your comments were on the comment on the thoughts about what the blog seem to say, I suggested you to first read the blog, not to base your comments on other people interpretations of the blog.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.05.15 19:27:00 - [29] Probably we'll see new hubs form for each faction on the doorstep of the combat zones, which will be interesting until they get fully established, then they'll be just like any other hub.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.15 20:10:00 - [30] Hmmm, I see interesting effects both from the addition of a new low sec area and from some of the implications of factional warfare. In particular, it sounds like the action and hence the demand will shift around. My impression is that it won't just be static areas with static (if high) demand.

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