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Suggestions Wanted - Best way to invest 80bill at this point.

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Rava Centari Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:40:00 - [1] Im looking for some open discussion on the kind of ventures you would be considering getting involved with if you had around 80bill raw capital (personal isk) to plunge into something. As i look around the MD i notice very quickly that 80bill isnt actually that much in the grand scheme of things compared to some of the major ventures out their, however the mass majority of the "big players" on the MD as far as business go are built up using mostly public money and as such are in most cases restricted by certain "risk boundary" that someone using their own personal isk might not be so tied down to, this opens up alot of potential freedom you don't get with an IPO based company. Now as some of the more shroud members of the MD will most likely spot! I' am using this thread to search out potential creativity i myself clearly do not have, i have built up my personal wealth to this point and taken some time away from eve, upon my return i find myself simply stumped on what business move to make next. So i ask you all, (or atleast the small section of the MD who are willing to part with wise words from time to time) if you were in my position at this point what areas of the eve market would you be looking into expanding your business given similar circumstances? This is an alt to avoid the mass eve-mail spam i expect could come from such a thread. But for the record i' am a band of brothers member, not that it matters, just pointing out that isn't the reason im using an alt for the flamers :)
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:14:00 - [2] I guess the general rule applies here. You're not going to get very specific advice because it'll cut into somebody's profit. But given that you're in a major alliance that routinely breaks a lot of stuff, there's got to be a bunch of your fellow BOB members that need capital for running their isk making alts and such. Loaning money within the alliance sounds like a good option.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:20:00 - [3] The secondary market is rather sickly at the moment. I'm considering launching a flexible but relatively low interest venture (1.25% weekly dividend) at the beginning of June but it will capped at 20B. The only ventures that could have accommodated something on the order of 80B are fully subscribed and most are being shutdown (FIN/FIN-U) or gone AWOL (FRPB). I want to say there's a mineral market manipulation scheme out there that was able to handle something close to that but at least part of it is currently being shutdown. Others can give better info on it but in general you're not gong to be able to properly invest the full 80B at the moment. That leaves managing it yourself. Obviously the secondary market is suffering because of the lack of large scale opportunities. But there are a few things left. If you have 0.0 friends you could keep a region stocked for them, with a modest markup of course. Shipping things halfway across the galaxy can be a logistical nightmare but that's the price of a guaranteed market. You could always manipulate something though that can be a tricky business. Finally, if you're looking for a relatively hands-free longterm investment I'd just put up massive buy orders for Trit until you've bought 80B worth and wait for CCP to remove the NPC goods that keep it so low. Worst comes to worse you can always liquidate it for your original investment. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:01:00 - [4] There are certain items allways in higher demand then supply. The best of the officer stuff for instance, putting out valid buy orders (buy contracts) for this stuff and reselling at a higher price should give you a pretty sure, easely managable income. Having a buy order thread is possibly better though.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:23:00 - [5] EBANK holds approx 500b of customer's funds and is always taking on more isk however it is only at the 1.5% per month range. We also have limitations of 6b per character for checking accounts. If we didn't currently have enough funds on hand we would offer you a dedicated bond under conditions acceptable to both parties however we are currently oversubscribed so the 1.5% account is the best we can offer im afraid. Kind Regards, Ricdic
Ambo Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:49:00 - [6] Edited by: Ambo on 17/05/2008 06:52:28 I'm not entirely sure if you're asking for IPO's ect to invest in or business ideas that you would run yourself using your capital to fund. I think it's the latter despite the answers everyone else is giving that are aimed at the secondary IPO/Banking side of Eve. In terms of activities that will soak up 80 bil isk. It essentially boils down to these: Build caps (carriers, freighters, dreads) - Perfectly viable and a profit can be made but it will take a long time to setup logistics chains, etc. Also, the market for these is still somewhat oversaturated so margins are not what they once were. Build super caps (moms, titans) - Ok, so this is stretching it a little with only 80 bil to play with, particularly if you went for titans. You'd require additional funding in the form of a bank loan or possibly public funding to even contemplate this. It's got a very long startup time and requires HUGE amounts of logistics work. Seriously not recommended unless you've at least built battleships in large quantities before. POS chain - Would probably not require the entire 80 bil but with at least a large chunk of it, you could set up a POS chain to perform reactions. Fairly risky and you have to be willing to devote a lot of time to both the running of the POSs and examination of the market for your end products. Market manipulation - 80 bil is a lot of spending power if concentrated correctly. Would require deep understanding of the market, a fair bit of research and probably a healthy dose of luck to really make massive profits though. Trading - trading could certainly eat this much isk. Bringing the full amount to bear will require a little knowledge and a lot of time though. Imo the best solution if you have the time and market experience required. If you have not done trading before then start small and build up slowly. T2 BPOs - You could buy a couple of decent T2 BPOs and manufacture items or sell BPCs from them but margins are not what they once were and it may take a long time to turn a profit. Definatley a long term investment but will probably require less effort on your part than anything else here. I'm sure there are other things but that's all I can think of right now. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.17 07:09:00 - [7] Yeah, T2 part BPO's that are around 10-15b uses about a year to turn themselves in to a profit. But the best part about em is they turn teddybears in to marshmallows? No wait, something wrong there. Ah, you can resell them easely at any point keeping the money you've earned so far.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.17 07:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Ambo POS chain - Would probably not require the entire 80 bil but with at least a large chunk of it, you could set up a POS chain to perform reactions. Fairly risky and you have to be willing to devote a lot of time to both the running of the POSs and examination of the market for your end products. Not an option for 80B. Even at 40B you're looking at quite a few hours per week to manage it and you simply cannot jump into it cold turkey, not on that large of a scale anyways. You need extensive infrastructure and so long as you're going to do it on that large of a scale you might as well do it in 0.0 with sovereignty for the fuel and safety bonus. 80B invested to maximize profits while spreading the load between the 11 advanced materials would not just seriously oversaturate the market but generate so much work that you'd essentially be working a second job. Seriously, the work load would rival that of a RL job. If you could get employees to take on much of the burden then it might be doable but I personally doubt the market can handle the excess production at the moment and there's still a million pesky issues like getting secure 0.0 space, establishing the logistics and of course getting to know the market and the process. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.17 09:20:00 - [9] Is it still possible to jump-bridge multiple freighter loads of Plutonium between different 0.0 NPC regions? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
IceWarriors Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.05.17 09:53:00 - [10] Invest it in a lottery or make another poker client for Eve.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.17 09:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Is it still possible to jump-bridge multiple freighter loads of Plutonium between different 0.0 NPC regions? I've never tried it with plutonium (is that stuff good for anything other than building matar outposts?) but as far as I know you can still jump bridge freighter loads worth of stuff across vast expanses. However, I'm quite certain it requires sovereignty (level 3?) to setup a Jump Bridge and I don't think you can establish sovereignty in an NPC region, regardless of sec status. So I don't think you can or ever could directly jump bridge between NPC regions. You can, however, jump bridge to the edges and use a jump freighter to take you the rest of the way. Back when I was planning to establish a 50-tower POS chain, we were planning to pay a guy to haul the stuff through high sec, we would jump freighter it through low sec to the nearest 0.0 jump bridge terminus and that would take us straight to our storage tower, with the rest of the network scattered around that system we could easily stock it with a dedicated freighter. The jump bridging made logistics a lot easier but when you're looking at tens of millions of m3 per month it's still a royal pain. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Rava Centari Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.05.17 12:04:00 - [12] Not certain i ever expected this thread to be flame free, thank you very much to everyone who has posted so far (-: Excelent suggestions that i will take to heart when considering what move to make next. As far as my personal background (as refered to in some of the above suggestions) i have expirance with medium pos networks (upto 40 pos's) and exstensive capital production, however i found the first to be far too much work without a solid crew willing to do it for the long term, and the second while a 'steady' profit took far too long to actually sell the end products unless they are titans, in witch case ushally you require an allready built titan to help bridge components and or minerals around in the first place to do the job. Not very practical and the market for them is coming to a bit of a halt with so many in production by even the smaller alliances now. Atleast thats my take on it. In regards to the question above on if im looking for ideas or investment opertunitys i guess in the long run i think i will end up doing a bit of both and spreading the load bettwen person venturer and outside investment risk. Anyway thanks for the continued suggestions and i hope to see more as the day goes on (-:
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.17 12:48:00 - [13] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 17/05/2008 12:49:08 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic EBANK holds approx 500b of customer's funds and is always taking on more isk however it is only at the 1.5% per month range. We also have limitations of 6b per character for checking accounts. If we didn't currently have enough funds on hand we would offer you a dedicated bond under conditions acceptable to both parties however we are currently oversubscribed so the 1.5% account is the best we can offer im afraid. Kind Regards, Ricdic Maybe you guys should consider cloning Selene and running a recycling op in Lonetrek too.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:58:00 - [14] Originally by: IceWarriors Invest it in a lottery or make another poker client for Eve. Something I've seriously considered advertising for and paying in RL dollars for since I am nothing more than a novice at programming. That is going in on a partnership and using personal isk as a start up fund for a new gambling den out of game and paying RL dollars to my partner for the programming skills.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.17 15:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Kwint Sommer However, I'm quite certain it requires sovereignty (level 3?) to setup a Jump Bridge... I never said anything about using a POS-based jump bridge I don't know of any other uses for Plutonium; the point is, there are NPC buy orders for it in Minmatar & Khanid space My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Luciender Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:00:00 - [16] Edited by: Luciender on 17/05/2008 18:00:48 If it was me, personally i would invest it in a normal capital production, start off small, do primarily freighters, then once you have the jist of things, expand into the full blown carrier / dread production market. best thing with the capital production option is... returns are decent compared to the other options - and they are always in demand due to the constent 0.0 War(s). Only 5 things you really have to remember 1) Keep an eye on your cash flow - its important inorder to run a successful capital production operation 2) Know the market, the best places to get minerals, the best places to sell capitals. 3) Buy orders are your friend :) 4) Make sure your prices are inline with competitors. 5) Emo. Cut it out. (Most important rule to follow when doing anything ) - Do not expect everything to be a smooth sailing from the begining. Things can go wrong. Stick with it. Numerous capital builders fold at the first sign of problems. Dont be one of them.
Rava Centari Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.05.18 02:18:00 - [17] Good comments luciender, however i think ill stay clear of capital production for the moment, i have done more than my fair share of it to date. Sound advice all the same. The gambling den suggestion is an intreasting one and pretty sound given the house allways wins in the end, however im not so sure theirs much of a market for high roller games of isk based poker and what not, and its never 100% something you can assure a customer isnt monitored or tampored with, theirs just too many ways to exploit something like that even when playing on independent sites as you can rig the other seats in poker tables and the like... intreasting idea i just arnt certain it has selling potential. Im reading alot of threads on the MD talking about the fall or atlest impending slow down in trading with the "secondary market" of eve, atleast the player driven aspect of it such as the larger IPOs, if im understanding the situation correctly we could be moveing away from a time of public floated companys in eve-online and back to the days of corporate based ventures all done "in-house", if so then my situation is likely to become similar to many other entrepenurs of eve online in the future months. So once again i thank everyone who has parted with sound advice and suggestions and i hope the open forum style found in this thread will continue should we all start to find ourselfs in futher economic slump, a union of the minds isnt allways bad for buissnes long run eh? (-:
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.18 02:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Kwint Sommer However, I'm quite certain it requires sovereignty (level 3?) to setup a Jump Bridge... I never said anything about using a POS-based jump bridge I don't know of any other uses for Plutonium; the point is, there are NPC buy orders for it in Minmatar & Khanid space Sadly I have yet to control a Titan's jump bridge so I can't answer that. Somehow I think you'll end up blowing most of your profit on fuel but it could be worth it. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.18 02:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Luciender start off small, do primarily freighters, then once you have the jist of things, expand into the full blown carrier / dread production market. best thing with the capital production option is... returns are decent compared to the other options - and they are always in demand due to the constent 0.0 War(s). I haven't run the numbers in a while but the last time I did the margin on freighters had dropped to a really crapy level. I suppose the cost of BPC's could be dropping faster than the price of freighters, thus rebuilding the margin, but I was under the impression that these were tough times for freighter manufacturers. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Danari Viper Squad	Posted - 2008.05.18 05:30:00 - [20] 1. Find out what Shadarle recommends. 2. Do the exact opposite 3. Profit
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:43:00 - [21] buy a titan bpo
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Shin Ra buy a titan bpo I'm having a very hard time believing that people actually profit from that. How many BPC's would it be possible to sell? How much would you have to sell each BPC for in order to make a profit? How many titans are in game atm? If I recall right the BPO itself is 75B. I'm just imagining that if you were to make a profit from it, you'd have to find a buyer for the researched BPO. And maybe stack up a couple of BPC's.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:00:00 - [23] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=750961 List of titans that are ingame atm.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Ortos I'm having a very hard time believing that people actually profit from that. How many BPC's would it be possible to sell? How much would you have to sell each BPC for in order to make a profit? How many titans are in game atm? If I recall right the BPO itself is 75B. I'm just imagining that if you were to make a profit from it, you'd have to find a buyer for the researched BPO. And maybe stack up a couple of BPC's. 60.75B isk for the Minmatar one, Research copy time is around half a year. That's going to be a loooong term investment...
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:17:00 - [25] I've been in a guild (multigame one) named Ragnarok since 2004 or so and even I wouldnt invest in that titan over the others. :P But yeah, long term investment for sure. And it'd probably be better to rent the BPO out then making copies? (or am I just beeing an idiot saying that?)
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:47:00 - [26] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 18/05/2008 12:48:40 Originally by: Ortos I've been in a guild (multigame one) named Ragnarok since 2004 or so and even I wouldnt invest in that titan over the others. :P But yeah, long term investment for sure. And it'd probably be better to rent the BPO out then making copies? (or am I just beeing an idiot saying that?) I am considering a BPO rental service in case my current bond fails to draw enough interest. It requires joining my corp however and accessing the BPOs while locked. As for titan BPOs rented... there's always the risk that you're providing a potential enemy with the means to strike at you. If that's not it, alliances are wealthy enough to not have to resort to such things. But you knew that.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 13:11:00 - [27] As long as the enemy gives the BPO back and pays the rent. What does it mather? For that sake, if you sell the BPC on the open market.. :p It's not like someone that wants a titan and is capable of building a titan wouldnt get it anyhow. You renting them the BPO or not doesnt make any diffrence at all. Except you got some extra money to fight back with. Unless im totally missing some valid point, which I usually am. =p
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.18 14:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Sadly I have yet to control a Titan's jump bridge so I can't answer that. Somehow I think you'll end up blowing most of your profit on fuel but it could be worth it. Actually, I believe it's already been done, to great effect. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Kwint Sommer Caldari Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.18 14:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Kwint Sommer Sadly I have yet to control a Titan's jump bridge so I can't answer that. Somehow I think you'll end up blowing most of your profit on fuel but it could be worth it. Actually, I believe it's already been done, to great effect. I vaguely remembered some sort of controversy over filling NPC buy orders but I had totally forgotten the details. Man, what a ****ty game mechanic. I look forward to the day when all NPC orders are wiped out! Well, except shuttles, those need to go back, just at a much higher price point. Make them 100k and in blocks of 10 with a steep price increase but put them back. Anyways, what ever came of that? I would hope CCP adjusted the buy prices to close that ridiculous ISK faucet. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.05.18 16:21:00 - [30] Edited by: Shadarle on 18/05/2008 16:22:12 I have half this much sitting my wallet right now doing nothing. There are many ways to spend it... it just depends on the monthly return you want from it. If you are expecting over 10% then you have to do manipulation or trade with all of it. If you expect 5-10% you'll have to luck out on a good T2 BPO sale. If you are OK with 1-5% then you have almost limitless options. I've just become too lazy lately to use my money.

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