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AlternateAlt McAlty
AlternateAlt McAlty House of Noobish Altness
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Posted - 2008.05.17 11:20:00 -
[1]
Firstly I would like to apologise for using an alt to post this. I simply feel that posting with my main here would attract flames and unconstructive crap.
I would however like to give my view as a player of 4 and a half years on the proposed changes to speed coming soonÖ
A short sighted and poorly thought out nerf to æbalanceÆ the playing field for the whiners who despite having the tools (webs, neuts, web drones, missiles, drones,ecm) to counter speed are upset that their big blob fleets can be effectively challenged by smaller ships utilising pure speed.
With the upcoming speed limitations and no ship being able to come close to its current speed people will be forced in order to counter the current blob tactics to form their own blobs and hence each side gets bigger and bigger fleets and whoa the server crashes because it canÆt handle the load.
If the game, as I expect means that a smaller group has no way at all of beating a larger group, then players will quit in their droves.
A massive part of eve for many people is the challenge of taking on groups 2 or 3 times your size and despite the risk standing a chance of winning.
As it is so many players have already turned their back on the large alliance warfare because the lag makes the game unplayable û the servers simply cannot cope with 100 a side fleets. And by removing speed and forcing players into bigger and bigger groups the lag will increase and more and more people will switch off.
CCP currently is more interested in bolting on new ôshineyö unnecessary crap to dilute what is at moment an almost perfect game. Instead of wasting time and effort bolting on some ****ty fps clone pew pew in stations rubbish FIX WHAT IS ALREADY BROKEN!
Fix the overview bug in wars, fix the graphic bug on the fleet tempest. Fix the 101 things that are already broken. DonÆt give rubbish that isnÆt needed with one hand whilst ruining the game for anyone unwilling to fly around in 50 man fleets at all times with the other.
The players have the tools they need already to counter speed.
Setting a ship up to be fast is a self imposed nerf. You get webbed you die, there is no tank that can be fitted on a true speed ship. Your armor is reduced if you arenÆt going fast you are dead its that simple.
The obvious hips like the curse, the pilgrim, the hugin, the hyena, the rapier, the sentinal all have a direct counter to speed. They either web it to make it go slow and hence die or take its cap to make it go slow and die.
Then you have arazu, lachesis, ishtar, ishkur, eos, these ships can damp the range the speed ship can fight at meaning it either comes close to lock (and hence within range of your webs and dies) or it leaves because it is unable to do anything to you.
Even caldari have a defence with their ecm, if you canÆt target you canÆt fight.
Every race has a counter to speed ships, every well set up fleet would have a counter to speed ships. The players have the tools ffs.
Removing speed changes so much more than just stopping that irritating vaga whizzing round at 10km or the Ishtar at 5km, it means solo players wanting to explore space in a fast ship so they can get away? I donÆt think so.
As I illustrated every single race can do something to counteract speed fit. Just because speed fit ships can sometimes evade blobs twice their size by using speed why should they be removed from the game because the inflexible blob player canÆt use their brain enough to utilise the tools available to them.
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Sir Substance
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Posted - 2008.05.17 11:28:00 -
[2]
i must admit, ive always been puzzled over the rapant controversy surrounding the speedtank really. im minmatar, which means i understand better then most players (because most players are not minmatar and many of those choose not to pursue the path to its full potential) that speedtanks don't work with other things. in the same way that you cant make a good armor and shield combined tank, you cant combine a speedtank with anything else.
as has been said, every race has its counter. the webbers work fine if you simply use your brain. all you need to do is force them to either come closer or leave you alone. this can be achieved with all sorts of things. webber drones, sensor dampeners, even a decent sniper ship can force them into submission.
its like so many other things in this game people whine about. it doesn't need fixing, your strategies do. the reason CCP doesn't act on so much of this is because they see its just inflexible people crying for them to change the game to suit them.
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Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.05.17 12:27:00 -
[3]
/second (third) the motion
if we "fix" speed tanking do we need to "fix" spider tanking aswell?
The point of this entire thing is that the state of the current game mechanics doesnt force people to consider the diffrent situations they might find them self in.
Like you say there are lots of effective counters for nano tanking gangs, people just need to utilize the tools that they have available to them.
If you really want to "fix" anything about nano you might want to consider changing the optimal range of a normal web putting the counter for nano gangs into every players rage. - I want to stress that i dont like this solution but i think its bether then most of the limitations that CCP are looking at.
"Fixing" nano will once again reduce EvE to a style of warfare that mostly resembles 16th century wafare - everyone brings all the weapons they can possible move around into one system or conflict zone, and they start to shoot each other until one of the armies ither retreat or are totally destoryed.
 The lag of tactical environments and other features that can benefit small size gang wafare makes the nano feature in the game very important, as it forces fleets to adapt to more then the one style of warfare that they are use to.
So please dont break this feature in the game, instead look at what features/changes you might make to keep the current status quo but making it slightly easier for the people who whine about nano wafare to counter it!
Ohh yes and this can be compared to when you proposed to change carriers so that the pilote could only use 5 fighters at any one given time.
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:12:00 -
[4]
Well baring in mind the fact that nanos got nerfed already... having ships which can fly 50km/s and be cap stable is absolutely nuts. It proves that you can find your ideal speed and be highly effective.
The problem though is the fight against speed is speed. Nothing else touches it.
I say we step on this alt person's toes and introduce a new "ôshineyö unnecessary crap to dilute what is at moment an almost perfect game."
Area of effect webbers. Heavy interdictors already exist. Just build a new module which is identical to it's warp scrambler. Except it's a webber instead. Should be straightforward to do. It would give full counterbalance to nanoships. That way you dont need to nerf nanoships but rather balance the heavy interdictors in the goal of creating a proper balance.
Give that webber the range of like 30km or so and virtually all these nanoships will have to keep their distance and be ineffective and sit out where the transversal velocity is lower and ships start to get you more. OR get in close and lose your speed.
I honestly can't even see this being that overpowered as even if you have 2 heavy interdictors on the gate, 1 for warp jamming and 1 for webber. You would still need other ships to tackle, decloak, dmg.
Plus for the moment there are those mega 40km webbers on ships and such already on hugins. If they fit a domination webber they go out to 60km.
I really dont see how there is a problem there.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:41:00 -
[5]
What short sighted and poorly thought out nerf to nano-ships? New dev blog?
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Sir Drake
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:56:00 -
[6]
Im playing for as long as the op and must say i really welcome the speed nerf.
The dual-mwd setups we had some time ago were bad enough but the nano setups we have now are way worse.
Nano setups are rather one-sided, any competent pilot can either kill his prey or run off when using them. Sure there are counters but those are only good for scaring them off and not meaning certain death.
So its either nerfing the speeds of nano-setups or upgrading missile-speeds/gun-tracking till there¦s a fair chance to hit back.
And:
 Quote:
If the game, as I expect means that a smaller group has no way at all of beating a larger group, then players will quit in their droves.
I have very fond memories of 3k ppl online max and wont mind any changes that bring us back to that, not that i believe it will happen just because of some minor change as there have happened way worse nerfs and ppl just adapted as usual.
-------------------------------------------------------
Sig was removed due to derogatory comments towards a group of people. -Karl Chroimcer
I like that. 
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Sir Substance
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Posted - 2008.05.17 13:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 17/05/2008 13:46:32
What short sighted and poorly thought out nerf to nano-ships? New dev blog?
Quote:
A massive part of eve for many people is the challenge of taking on groups 2 or 3 times your size and despite the risk standing a chance of winning.
Something about this strikes me as odd. Like, what happens when they bring the same ships you are?
then noone can hit anyone because everyones transversal velocity is too high, and everyone goes home bored ;)
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Liranan
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Posted - 2008.05.17 14:02:00 -
[8]
Are you guys saying that the only answere to a 500 man blob is a 10 Vaga gang?
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Sporolichimisu
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Posted - 2008.05.17 14:34:00 -
[9]
First of all, you shouldn't change speed just to suit a few whiners. I really don't see what the big deal is. Most of my corporation members haven't been playing very long, and although unable to kill most nanofits, we don't have many problems countering them in frigates when we go out and seek pvp. ECM and sensor dampening are pretty effective at keeping them at bay. Warrior II's are pretty good to shoot them with as well. There is a counter to everything in this game, and there is no need to change anything to suit a few people who are too lazy to switch their setups.
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gavhriel
Amarr
Killson Corp
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.05.17 14:52:00 -
[10]
I hope i can have all your stuffz
can I? can I?
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MrLobster
Clawstrawphonebeer
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Posted - 2008.05.17 15:44:00 -
[11]
Any thing going at stupid speeds usually have expensive faction/officer mods, overheating, implants and gang modules.
I hardly fly nano ships, I fly mainly BS.
I could get a stabber up to nearly 6k with gang bonus, but normally I'm getting 3.5-4km/s.
I still want them to fix the damn dictors, how on earth a non-sabre-dictor can survive for very long is ********.
I say fix the bugs first, and leave nano alone.
p.s. Damp Boost please....!
_________________________
Invicta Film.
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Wren Alterana
Minmatar
The Baros Syndicate
Kissaki Republic
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Posted - 2008.05.17 16:55:00 -
[12]
the OP is right, while a small nerf might be in order, the amount of nerf being waved around is rather excessive.
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Dynamic Maps |
Matrixcvd
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.05.17 17:28:00 -
[13]
who proposed what? havent seen anything yet
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Liranan
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: MrLobster
p.s. Damp Boost please....!
I agree, Caldari ECM ships are far more effective than Damps now.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Well baring in mind the fact that nanos got nerfed already... having ships which can fly 50km/s and be cap stable is absolutely nuts. It proves that you can find your ideal speed and be highly effective.
What game are you playing?
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:34:00 -
[16]
WHAT PLANED BALANCE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? link or su.
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You don't have to like it - I don't blame you for not liking it. |
xena zena
Catalyst Corporation
Dominatus Phasmatis
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Posted - 2008.05.17 20:47:00 -
[17]
Instead of some wide-sweeping speed gimp on every ship to solve nanogags... why not pick from some of the following suggestions....
1. new type of ammo for interdictors that slows speed of ships inside the bubble, instead of blocking warp drives, it blocks mwd's.. make it more expensive and the bubble should be larger volume (can't hold as many) and should pop faster.
2. Make web modules scripted, 1 script that functions the same as it does now, 1 script that extends it's range by like say 10x but takes SIGNIFICANTLY more cap to do that, and maybe gimps weapon capability to near zero, so that you can't really solo pop someone, need a gang. But gives the gang the ability to stop nano speed tanked invincible ships harrasing them.
3. Increase the drop rate and maybe introduce more types of webbers with longer ranges.
....
and for the comments of 50km/s ships, to get anywhere close to those speeds your looking at BILLIONS in modules... if you have a 2 billion isk ship, it SHOULD be hard to kill. your talking capital class money here in a small ship. No reason it shouldn't be hard to kill?
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
who proposed what? havent seen anything yet
The speed nerf was mentioned in the live dev blog prior to the Empyrean Age live dev blog. They mentioned having ALL speed mods/rig nerf stack so you can only get the benefit out of two or three of them. Other things have been mentioned in interviews here and there. Nothing is set in stone except maybe the consensus that something needs to be done.
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posteroid
im right your wrong
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Posted - 2008.05.17 22:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Goumindong
A massive part of eve for many people is the challenge of taking on groups 2 or 3 times your size and despite the risk standing a chance of winning.
Something about this strikes me as odd. Like, what happens when they bring the same ships you are?
You would know if you logged in a actually pvp'd as much as you post about it.
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Sevan Rax
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.05.18 09:30:00 -
[20]
Being in the Noob Mercs I have to say that I've recently had the opportunity to experience the nano-gang from the opposite side of the spectrum being as primarily 99% of our members are low-sp alts and out and out noobs.
4 guys in excessively fast Hacs/Recons utterly dominated the field... there was nothing at all we could do to stop it at the time.
You have to bear in mind that only an extremely small percentage of us can even fly a battleship so the obvious solution of slapping on a neut or two was beyond our skill to do... we couldn't overheat webs... and we couldn't go fast enough to compete.
Of course you have to take into account that as far as organization and discipline were concerned it was fairly shoddy stuff and things could have been better.
On the other side of things I cannot deny that who we were up against were not short of skill themselves. In fact they were rather bloody good and worked very effectively as a team, bumping team mates out of sticky situations. On the very few times someone did get a web on one of them and considering the size of the ships involved, no small feat in itself!
But still despite all this I'm not in favour of nerfing speed set ups.
Why? Because it requires player skill and more than a little finesse to pull off successfully although I would agree that players do not quite have enough tools to deal with this kind of threat.
Quote:
CCP currently is more interested in bolting on new ôshineyö unnecessary crap to dilute what is at moment an almost perfect game.
Without this Eve would have sunk into obscurity long before I ever became interested in it and as many others who play this game have said you just have to adapt. The same is true of anything, everything, without evolution or adaption, things stagnate and die.
The answer IS more shiny toys AND unnecessary crap, more, more and MOAR!
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