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Unlimited supply =/ free market

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.05.19 13:33:00 - [31] I donÆt think the OP is complaining about lifting the T2 cartels. Its more a case of swinging the bat too far in the other direction. Invention degraded the tech 2 market into an slightly advanced tech 1 market, a market that has been broken for ages. The problem is the current oversupply of nearly all tech 2 items. While this may look good from a customerÆs viewpoint, it has some serious repercussions on the market. Imagine an EVE market where: -twice as much minerals are mined as needed for production -twice as much moon materials are harvested as needed for tech 2 components -twice as much ships are build as needed for replacing lost ones A severe constant oversupply will force miners/builders to sell at cut-throat margins leading to survival of the fittest pricewars. Sure, you could say this is market PVP at its best, but it has some serious side-effects: - Manufacturing as a profession will cease to exist: it will nearly be impossible to sell all stuff at a decent profit, so the die-hard builders will look out for other opportunities. The gap will be closed by part-time builders, people who only build to shift excess materials and donÆt value their time. Mostly the ôeverything I mine is freeö crowd. - The market becomes as static as can be. The only volatility will come from short-term market manipulations and future patch speculation. - The market could turn into a deflationary spiral. Everything gets cheaper until blowing up your own ships becomes profitable. One of the main problems of invention is the low-entry cost. While traditional building required you to invest in a BPO, with invention all you need is a tech 1 item, some datacores and a BPC to be successful. Static markets are very boring to watch. IÆd like to see a more dynamic market, with periods of shortages, people hoarding stuff in better times, disasters having an impact on the market. The concept of Eve should be a fight over resources ( not only over some alliance leaderÆs ego). Maybe not everything should be available to everyone.
Arik VanClaw	Posted - 2008.05.19 13:48:00 - [32] Edited by: Arik VanClaw on 19/05/2008 13:48:20 Has anyone thought about the possibility of item decay on T2 items? I know for a lot of players that PVP that probably wouldn't change anything but for mission runners it would definitely create an isk sink. I think something of that sort would only be viable on T2 items as generally characters with the SP to use them have the skills to make the money to replace them. Probably only on modules as well unless you have some nominal 'maintenance fee' for restoring ships to 100%. Perhaps this was already mentioned as item quality but I know this has been done in some games as a way to alleviate market glut. Thoughts?
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:34:00 - [33] I want to apologise if my posts on page 1 came about as harsh. I am quite glad to see multiple CCP dev's parading through our forums as well as vocally stating their opinions. Before Mitnal I would say 1 post per year was about the most we could expect so I definetly appreciate CCP's input and discussions with the MD community. <3

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.05.19 14:41:00 - [34] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic I want to apologise if my posts on page 1 came about as harsh. I am quite glad to see multiple CCP dev's parading through our forums as well as vocally stating their opinions. Before Mitnal I would say 1 post per year was about the most we could expect so I definetly appreciate CCP's input and discussions with the MD community. <3 It's ok, how can we take a floating head too seriously anyway??? CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.19 15:01:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Lingorm IP analogy In the real world, research always continues, products always get better, faster, cheaper to produce etc. Eve's technology is fixed. You cannot improve your product, you cannot improve your production facilities to build that product cheaper/faster, you cannot invent new products when the original market's profit margin has dried up. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the 'fix' in this case may have solved the monopoly issues with certain t2 products, but it absolutely devastated the markets for the rest of them. Quote: And tech 2 BPO owners are still at an advantage, they have no Invention Overheads, then can reseach their BPO to use less materials and take less time (allowing them to produce more in the same time). So yes they do not make the same profit they used to but they still make a profit. There is a limit as to how far you can research a bpo before it becomes a pointless task. That limit is severely reduced from it's maximum when you consider there are pos's out there that can produce items (yes, even from a bpc) with higher speed or lower mineral costs. When you take this into account, that research 'advantage' is minimal at best, non-existent at worst. It also doesn't particularly help that the research times on bpo's make it close to unprofitable to actually do as the payback time for that research now reaches into the 2-3months per level of research done region due to low profit margins. ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog \| 1st Campaign Vid
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:20:00 - [36] Ok, I don't get the complaints here. Shin Ra seems overcome with nostalgia for the days of easy pvp (for her) and makes strange noises about "unlimited supply". The only thing that technically is in unlimited supply is trial accounts and the logistics of handling a lot of trial accounts limits that. Treelox, your comments about "isk printing" ignore that high tier moon mining and market manipulation are high risk activities. The good old days of t2 manufacture wasn't high risk. In fact, the term "isk printing" usually means low risk, high margin activities. Ricdic, I don't understand your comments about making t2 BPOs being better in every way than invented t2 BPCs. They already are. The comment about copying particularly makes no sense since one can't copy from an invented BPC. And Omber Zombie, what in the world are you talking about? Sure raising ME from 50 to 200 is rather pointless, but unresearched t2 BPOs have a significant advantage over invented t2 BPCs. Even a modest amount of research improves that advantage signficantly. And as I understand it, no matter how efficient your manufacturing, you can't do better than normal station manufacture in terms of efficiency. I was looking at POS manufacture, and it just doesn't get any more efficient than station manufacture. The difference is that if you're willing to sacrifice material efficiency, you can get much faster manufacture times. Finally, Feronia, I see no indication of demand exceeding supply for significant markets (ignoring such things as Zor's +10% afterburner time implants). But if it were, the anyone on the wrong side of a glutted market could always switch to some other activity. Manufacture appears quite vibrant to me. I certainly have no trouble finding products to make and sell for a profit.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:20:00 - [37] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 19/05/2008 16:23:21 Edited by: Tasko Pal on 19/05/2008 16:20:53 dupe post. Please ignore.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.19 16:33:00 - [38] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic My main request would be that CCP make t2 bpo's better in every way than invented bpc's. Mainly the copying aspect should be improved. I'd rather T2 BPOs be insane to copy. Just bump the copy times up to ludicrous amounts. By making them easier to copy you pretty much negate the point of invention and instead of paying for datacores, etc... there will just be another sub market on contracts for T2 copies. ..and we'd be right back where we started with the choke point at BPO holders. And even despite the movement of where the isk printing machine lays... I don't see a problem with the choke point being moons. At least with moons.. production can be halted, taken over, manipulated, etc.. or competed against. Where as with the choke point being BPOs, there was literally nothing any single player or group of players could do short of massive market manipulation.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.19 17:41:00 - [39] Lingorm, I dare you to touch T2 BPO's. I tell you what. Read my PDF about the economy. If you follow the logic in it, you will increase the barrier to entry of invention. That will solve ALL problems, including hunger But no, seriously. Consider it. You dumbed the T2 market from a stupidly high barrier to entry, to a barrier which is so low it's worse than the America-Mexican border
Block Ukx KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:28:00 - [40] I disagree that increasing the barrier of entry will solve all the problems. Look at the Dreadnought market where the barrier of entry is relatively high. Return on investment manufacturing dreadnoughts is extremely poor. Sales margins on dreadnoughts are not better than T1 frigates, so I would have to disagree that increasing the barrier of entry is such a great move. The best thing ccp can do is to allow a free market. NPC should stop selling items and rats should drop ore/alloys instead of loot. Let manufacture have a significant impact on eve. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:33:00 - [41] Originally by: Block Ukx I disagree that increasing the barrier of entry will solve all the problems. Look at the Dreadnought market where the barrier of entry is relatively high. Return on investment manufacturing dreadnoughts is extremely poor. Sales margins on dreadnoughts are not better than T1 frigates, so I would have to disagree that increasing the barrier of entry is such a great move. The best thing ccp can do is to allow a free market. NPC should stop selling items and rats should drop ore/alloys instead of loot. Let manufacture have a significant impact on eve. That is because most big alliances run a dreadnaught operation. You can't compare a market which audience is aimed at the average consumer, and then "the elite", which is a small audience.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.20 00:22:00 - [42] Edited by: Nyphur on 20/05/2008 00:23:19 Originally by: CCP Lingorm We do not want tech 2 bpo's to become Copy factories, but I can ask the Content guys to look at teh general difference between Manufacture time and Copy time and see what can be done. Wait, you don't want them to become copy factories, but you're going to consider making them copy faster? Isn't that counterproductive? The devs already readjusted T2 bpo copy times a long time ago, most T2 BPOs currently copy at half the speed per run with which they manufacture. Even at that slow speed, I'm finding it more desirable to copy my bpos than to manufacture them. I'm already using them as copy-machines and am disappointed that it's a viable option. In my reasonably qualified opinion, the copy ability of T2 bpos should be disabled. ME/PE research should still be possible on them, of course, just their copy ability should be disabled. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Tasko Pal And Omber Zombie, what in the world are you talking about? Sure raising ME from 50 to 200 is rather pointless, but unresearched t2 BPOs have a significant advantage over invented t2 BPCs. Even a modest amount of research improves that advantage signficantly. And as I understand it, no matter how efficient your manufacturing, you can't do better than normal station manufacture in terms of efficiency. apologies, I thought that the 'efficient assembly array' would be just that, efficient. Apparently it is not, I really shouldn't be surprised. ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog \| 1st Campaign Vid

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.05.20 09:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 20/05/2008 00:23:19 Originally by: CCP Lingorm We do not want tech 2 bpo's to become Copy factories, but I can ask the Content guys to look at teh general difference between Manufacture time and Copy time and see what can be done. Wait, you don't want them to become copy factories, but you're going to consider making them copy faster? Isn't that counterproductive? The devs already readjusted T2 bpo copy times a long time ago, most T2 BPOs currently copy at half the speed per run with which they manufacture. Even at that slow speed, I'm finding it more desirable to copy my bpos than to manufacture them. I'm already using them as copy-machines and am disappointed that it's a viable option. In my reasonably qualified opinion, the copy ability of T2 bpos should be disabled. ME/PE research should still be possible on them, of course, just their copy ability should be disabled. I did not say that, I said I would ask. I asked and the current answer is NO. There are no plans to adjust copy times on Tech 2 Blueprint Originals. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.20 10:35:00 - [45] Originally by: CCP Lingorm I did not say that, I said I would ask. I asked and the current answer is NO. There are no plans to adjust copy times on Tech 2 Blueprint Originals. Ah, it's just that you asking the other devs implies that you support the idea. My bad. It's good that you're willing to talk to the other devs and bring them ideas from the market players, industry and the market is sorely in need of some improvements. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.

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