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Unintended Mechanics & The Sandbox Police

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Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:00:00 - [1] My biggest issue with CCP right now is their attitude toward unintended game mechanics. By this I mean things that are neither bugs nor exploits, but were clearly not in the mind of the developers when they designed and programmed whatever part of the game it was There are many examples where upon discovering such things, CCP will not declare it wrong as such, but will subesquently change the mechanics of whatever it is (usually a couple of weeks later and quietly hidden in patch notes) so that it is no longer possible to do whatever it was. I can detail some examples if people want, but more importantly, it does not inspire this player with confidence that something quite trivial or harmless could be built up over months or even years, and then utterly destroyed because it doesn't fit with the game the developers want Eve to be Or to put it another way, I fear that what I build will be kicked over by the sandbox police if it isn't a sandcastle
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:03:00 - [2] If you don't like it, you have two options: 1. Go play WoW. 2. Start your own software company, write your own game, and play there - then you'll have people complaining on your forums about how you knocked over their sandcastle... ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Asestorian Domination. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:04:00 - [3] Could you give a few examples of what was removed or changed? Obviously if these unintended uses of the mechanics are overall harmless to the game then they should be left in and CCPs actions aren't entirely warranted. But I haven't been playing much or really following any of this stuff to know of possible examples myself, so please do explain further. --- Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:04:00 - [4] Look, it's another CVA "I can't roleplay this" whine thread. Your sand castle hasn't been destroyed. CCP is giving you a giant mound of multi-colored sand to incorporate, or ignore, as you wish. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.05.19 18:04:00 - [5] LOL - People still believe the "sandbox" tripe? Next youll be telling me people still belive the "cold hard universe" line. The only thing cold and hard that matters to ccp is cash. SKUNK
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Agent Li 2. Start your own software company, write your own game, and play there - then you'll have people complaining on your forums about how you knocked over their sandcastle... Well I have considered it. I know it isn't easy either running a company or engineering such a large piece of software, but it is more a case of attitude toward how people play the game once it is out there As for examples, Take the decision to remove containers from space after 30 days. The problem is that there are simply too many items in the database, too easy for people to just dump a noob ship or can at a safespot, lose the bookmark and the thing never get seen again But actually the real problem is there is no other way to do a lot of things those cans were being used for. Think about all those cans around stations and gates advertising recruitment for corps. Or can art or poems or whatever else people stick these things in space for There is no beacon item, there are no mods to let you leave a vapour trail and paint patterns in space, there is no advertising your corp on billboards All these things and more were lost because they relied on cans being permanent and visible. CCP chose to take the easy opt out and just nerf them without looking at what would be the wider impact. And that was that the Eve universe got just a little less exciting and vibrant and interesting Another example; when the LP stores were created, the agent offers of drugs for various goodies disappeared overnight. There were one or two dedicated corps whos activities in the game revolved around collecting, smuggling and delivering these drugs to people who needed them for offers. When this was pointed out, CCP actually said "Oh we didn't think anyone actually bothered with those". Again the LP store needed doing and was a great idea, but it just killed off an interesting little corner of the game. The worse sin was that eventually smuggling the NPC trade goods narcotics was replaced with smuggling boosters. But a few months ago, for no apparent reason other than maybe to stimulate a little extra takeup of boosters, all illegal items were made possible to be bought and sold at any NPC station. This completely threw off the whole idea of doing shadey deals and drop offs at some obscure moon in Empire. Instead, people can now completely facelessly and openly trade boosters or slaves or whatever else Again a little part of the game was lost. The point is, I can see really recent examples of this, or examples of it happening now. Yes my own alliance had this happen with factional warfare: Originally by: CCP Dionysus You have to decide -do you want to be your own master (and be in an alliance) or finally be able to officially work for the Empires and join in their wars. This comment comes after a number of roleplay alliances were asked to beta test factional warfare. We even got invited to a chat on IRC to discuss the whole thing. CCP knew roleplayers had formed alliances to better organise supporters of various NPC factions and in the case of CVA, they damn well knew exactly what we were about, claiming 0.0 for the Empire. Heck they even wrote in-game news articles about it When FW hit though, they chose to reinterpret what alliances were about over the top of what they player base had already done with them. It was easier to shaft the relative minority of players in specifically roleplay alliances to avoid having big 0.0 alliances blob out the place Take the example of the G95 outpost, named after some guy who passed away, then captured and name changed and the memorial it was supposed to be lost. The real point though is that the naming of the outpost was used for something completely unintended (in this case a memorial / monument to this guy). People are evolving and adapting to make the most of the less than ideal mechanics in game, and CCP seem to be quite willing and happy to nerf that stuff as they see fit
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:25:00 - [7] Can't believe you are upset over can cleanup. I think you are only the second person I have ever heard who dislikes it. The things were a major blight (ever warp into an ice field in hi sec and take 10 seconds to load the belt for all the cans?). Frankly, although some can art was clever, most was more annoying trash and advertising your corp on there just seemed downright silly. Besides, if you really want your can art left alone just drive by and access the can once a month. If you cannot be arsed to do that then frankly it is garbage and should be tossed. As for boosters I am not sure but I think the issue was they simply were not being used by the vast majority of players. All well and good some small group was playing with them but such things should be accessible to all of EVE (not free mind you but something reasonably doable). I could be wrong about that but I think that was the problem. As for FW frankly you are losing nothing. The day FW comes in you can do exactly as you have always done. Or you can join FW. At least you have an option. No one kicked over your sandcastle. Indeed there is some different sand in another part of the box you can go play with if you want that was not there before. And while CCP may have had you guys test FW they also stated they had roundtables and talked with players at the last fan fest about letting Alliances in and the sense there was to keep FW restricted from alliances. So this is not CCP just making some offhand, arbitrary decision. They DID ask the playerbase and they did listen. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:30:00 - [8] Changing game mechanics is, basically, all CCP do. It is their job. They are developers. They develop. When they designed EVE, they designed it in the way that, they thought, made the best game possible. If it turns out that through a complete accident there are ways of doing things they don't want to happen, items that have been obsoleted, or practises that are straining their precious hardware resources, then they'll fix it. To cite a few obvious ones: Secure Containers. Sure they had uses. They had a great many uses. But the fact is, 95% of the ones floating in space probably haven't been accessed in months; most will probably never be accessed again. As the game gets older and the player base grows, more and more containers will litter space. Containers caused noticeable client lag on warp in (such as to a container-cluttered asteroid belt), and each object represented data that was being managed by the server's database. Even if we weren't there quite yet, one day it'd reach breaking point. Nano ships. Most modules in the game have stacking or fitting penalties to prevent any given statistic being spiked to too high a peak. Some of the speed mods, traditionally, don't. Ships which were conceived as lumbering beasts can outrun non-speed-fitted interceptors. If this were incompatible with CCP's original ship-design intentions, why shouldn't it be altered? FW. CVA are obviously **ed (rightfully) that alliances can't declare support for Empires. The reason they are ed is obvious: their members face a choice between remaining in their home-grown RP faction or taking part fully in the new RP-themed game mechanics. But the reasons for CCP doing it are equally evident: aside from the very fact that alliances are supposed to be equals with Empires, not subordinate (making CVA an unofficial ally or proxy, and not a bona fide part of the Amarr Empire proper), there are gameplay reasons. FW is envisaged as a stepping stone from carebear to full alliance PvP; allowing alliances to take part runs the risk of alienating new players, and just giving a new PvP playground to already PvP enriched 0.0 dwellers. Its also been pointed out that alliances can still take part in FW, by way of declaring war on participating corporations, and making a presence in the relevant low-sec battlegrounds to help with militia objectives. The only thing they're denied is the NPC reward/medal/etc system, and the ability to actually complete the relevant complexes themselves. Neither of these things seem particularly important in the grand scheme of RP and FW... ------ Originally by:** Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Valkazm Amarr Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.19 23:31:00 - [9] is this offical CVA whine week ? ....................................... Quote: CCP Navigator mail at [email protected] for isk
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 00:28:00 - [10] The point is all the examples, they were reasonable changes to make. But the attitude from CCP is to listen to people's concerns, then ignore them and roll right over them CCP have such a bad rep amongst a large proportion of the player base because they just don't care for individuals. Sure you can't please everyone, but CCP seem to do a damn good job at times of stamping out creativity or off script stuff people do in the game --- Originally by: Valkazm is this offical CVA whine week ? Yes, it is. We're being written out of the script, put on a bus in what we'd all been built up to believe would be our finest hour This is our carrier nerf Quite aside from FW though, this is something that has been on my mind for a while and that I've said less clearly in other posts. It really is gut wrenching to see people leave the game as the work they have poured their heart into is swept aside by some CCP nerf with a "pffft, well you weren't meant to do it that way anyway"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 00:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Yes, it is. We're being written out of the script, put on a bus in what we'd all been built up to believe would be our finest hour This is our carrier nerf Quite aside from FW though, this is something that has been on my mind for a while and that I've said less clearly in other posts. It really is gut wrenching to see people leave the game as the work they have poured their heart into is swept aside by some CCP nerf with a "pffft, well you weren't meant to do it that way anyway" I am not seeing what it is you cannot do after FW comes in that you could do before. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:05:00 - [12] Edited by: Garreck on 20/05/2008 01:08:49 Heh. Complaints about FW are only a symptom of the OP. I think what Spoon is getting at is that continuity is tough to maintain when the goalposts are moved all the time. The goalpost that is being moved in FW is "what defines a faction militia." The roleplayers used to define what that meant...now it's a mechanic. I guess we asked for it. In fact, there's a very dark humor in the result of all this: in all of our crying out to CCP for more meaningful roleplay mechanics and better roleplay support...we'll be ending up with the roles we've defined for ourselves for our whole existence in the game being written out or re-written in CCPs image...with us on the outside looking in. Even I can't help but see the humor in that. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I am not seeing what it is you cannot do after FW comes in that you could do before. Your insinuation here is true...but is a derailment from the main Faction Warfare whine: The roleplay community...by and large alliances, due to having to keep up with game mechanics...has been told something great was coming for us. Fairly last minute we get "oh, by the way, you'll have to leave what you've built for years to take part." What we've built, by the way, as a means to try and have meaningful roleplay in a nearly complete absence of CCP interest in developing roleplay. So this discussion and others like it are not about what we won't be able to do post-FW that we could do before...it's more about not getting what we thought was coming to us. As for our options: credit to CCP, they do listen. So we speak. It's not "stfu or gtfo." Indeed we've already been told to start pitching ideas of our own to make our desires for FW become a reality further down the line: Originally by: CCP Ginger Were looking into ways and means of this, Greyscale just posted a blog and id encourage your alliance to get together to discuss it and bring forth your ideas to us.
Faife Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Le Skunk LOL - People still believe the "sandbox" tripe? Next youll be telling me people still belive the "cold hard universe" line. The only thing cold and hard that matters to ccp is cash. SKUNK Eternal Quitter spotted.
syphurous Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Spoon Thumb CCP have such a bad rep amongst a large proportion of the player base because they just don't care for individuals. Which of the 240,000 subscribers should they listen to exactly ? All of them ? The time taken to just read their names would take weeks. Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
Ubel Feuer	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:27:00 - [15] I see where you are coming from. I've often wondered why there is no way to advertise anything in-game, and the removal of the illegal goods trading was annoying as hell. Originally by: syphurous Which of the 240,000 subscribers should they listen to exactly ? All of them ? The time taken to just read their names would take weeks. Try just over 120,000 users. Alts are included in your figure, and they are not "customers."
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Garreck So this discussion and others like it are not about what we won't be able to do post-FW that we could do before...it's more about not getting what we thought was coming to us. It is this that makes me think CCP is spot on in keeping Alliances out. I do appreciate that as an RP group this seemed custom built for your and other RP corps and something to be excited about. But it is not for you alone. Indeed I can envision, from this and other similar posts, that the RP corps might come in and dominate the FW scene and perhaps be heavy handed in their approach because they would feel some proprietary ownership of the whole concept. I really wonder if I (or others) would be welcome in a CVA (as an example) militia group. If I would be invited to their Vent servers, their chat channels, their gangs and if CVA (again just using you as a convenient example) would be tolerant of newb PvPers or those who just want pew pew sans the RP part. CCP has stated they want FW to be a bridge into PvP and low sec. If CVA and the like were dominating the scene and largely insular to the rest of the militia I am not sure that would happen. I can see how it is disappointing for your corp and corps like yours. Lord knows I kept hoping for a decent Amarr buff from CCP and when it came is was rather underwhelming. I do think your alliance can take part in FW anyway though as others have noted. You may miss out on missions and medals (which while pretty sound largely useless...just an epeen thing) but you can still sway the happenings in Empire. Maybe once FW is established and has its own momentum allowing alliances in will work better. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 01:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I do appreciate that as an RP group this seemed custom built for your and other RP corps and something to be excited about. But it is not for you alone. In hindsight, selfish and naive on our part to assume this would be more directly aimed at the established roleplay organizations (I don't think anybody expected this to be for us "alone.") I think we make a good case as to why we had the expectations that we did and the subsequent feeling of betrayal...but as they "holy crap" factor wears off, I see what you're getting at here. Not sure if or how CVA would overpower other folks in a militia. Speaking personally, I kind of envisioned declaring our loyalties and thereby having the opportunity to attack/be attacked by those of the opposite factional persuasion more or less as the opportunities presented themselves. We would become more vulnerable in high sec space (perpetual factional wardec) and when our 'responsibilities' in Providence allowed, we could send raiding parties into the factional battlegrounds and take part in Loyalist shooty. I don't think anybody had any illusions of the CVA being the authority on all that is Loyalist combat operations or anything like that. You may be right...this may be a timing thing. Perhaps after all is nicely established and balanced at the individual/corporate level, the more complicated workings of alliance factional participation can be looked at.
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2008.05.20 02:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Le Skunk LOL - People still believe the "sandbox" tripe? Next youll be telling me people still belive the "cold hard universe" line. The only thing cold and hard that matters to ccp is cash. SKUNK Well that's the point of making a game and selling it, no?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.20 02:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Spoon Thumb CCP have such a bad rep amongst a large proportion of the player base because they just don't care for individuals. Sure you can't please everyone, but CCP seem to do a damn good job at times of stamping out creativity or off script stuff people do in the game This might come as a shock to you, but you are not a large proportion of the player base... there are over 250K people that play Eve and the number is steadily increasing so CCP must be doing something right () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Fox Ogmo Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.20 02:33:00 - [20] If CVA cares so much about RPing FW they can disband and sign up to FW, corp by corp, problem solved.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.20 02:42:00 - [21] Or they can dispatch a single corp to FW to represent CVA.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Stickler inc	Posted - 2008.05.20 02:49:00 - [22] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Or they can dispatch a single corp to FW to represent CVA. Apparently that's too hard/is metagaming
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.20 03:55:00 - [23] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 20/05/2008 03:55:34 CVA members each have a hard choice to make. Hard choices make good drama and storytelling. You claim to be roleplayers -- roleplay making a hard choice! If you can't see FW as an opportunity for some intensely in-character roleplaying, you're hopeless. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Ashley Sky The Eleventh Commandment Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.20 04:39:00 - [24] First I'd like to say that it's amazing other players are starting to point out what I've been demonstrating and talking about for years. I'm amazed to see this kind of thread appear on its own, I couldn't have done a better job myself. Perfect topic and beautiful points. That said, I hope some GMs and Devs read this and understand that more players are seeing past the regular propaganda and spin, so hey, you're going to wake up and know that your techniques aren't working on a player base that's growing ever more perceptive. Try sympathy and accountability for once instead of marketing, censorship, and diversionary tactics. You've started a game with lots of potential here, but it's like a great apartment complex that grows ever more run down as college students move in while management just kicks back and lets things happen. It's not going to take care of itself. You need to take care of your clients, and provide them with real entertainment, not the ban stick when they get more creative than you expected.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.20 04:42:00 - [25] LOL @ the hippie who didn't understand what the thread was about and took advantage of the soap box to make generalized accusatory statements directed at authority figure. ---------------- [insert signature here]
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.20 04:45:00 - [26] wow to above this post. your 100%, how dare they nerf pos bowling. If they just left it left it in the game it would be so much better! ah what the hell lets just stop fixing exploits and bugs altogether!
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.20 05:33:00 - [27] Damn straight.... they declared my favorite tactic with the "you" can an exploit... CCP's going soft () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.05.20 05:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Le Skunk LOL - People still believe the "sandbox" tripe? Next youll be telling me people still belive the "cold hard universe" line. The only thing cold and hard that matters to ccp is cash. SKUNK This. And nice to see you Skunk. Come play AoC .. thats hardcore in some twisted way "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.20 06:15:00 - [29] Edited by: Mara Rinn on 20/05/2008 06:18:34 For nullsec there's CVA. For everything else, there's the 24th Imperial Crusade. Faction Warfare has been touted as a means to get otherwise PvP-shy players into some PvP action (and into lowsec for the baby pirates to gank). The idea is to give them a taste of what real corporation warfare is like. I'm sure CVA can RP a reason to play alongside the 24th Imperial Crusade, even if you don't choose to all participate directly in Faction Warfare. You could even use the 24th as a recruitment avenue (don't waste your time with the false crusade! Come join us in nullsec and make a real difference!) As for recruitment cans - just pop by them once a fortnight to save them being reaped. At least that way potential recruits know that your corporation is still active. But still, you're Amarr slave-driving bastards. Would you like some cheese with your whine?
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.20 06:26:00 - [30] Edited by: Frug on 20/05/2008 06:26:59 I didn't agree with you until you mentioned this example: Quote: Take the decision to remove containers from space after 30 days. The problem is that there are simply too many items in the database, too easy for people to just dump a noob ship or can at a safespot, lose the bookmark and the thing never get seen again But actually the real problem is there is no other way to do a lot of things those cans were being used for. Think about all those cans around stations and gates advertising recruitment for corps. Or can art or poems or whatever else people stick these things in space for There is no beacon item, there are no mods to let you leave a vapour trail and paint patterns in space, there is no advertising your corp on billboards You're very right. Here we have these stupid useless billboards all around and no good way to advertise on them. Just to rub it in the billboards even say "this space for rent" No it isn't for rent you bastards! And it should be. Now they finally did implement a corp advertisement system and it lacks the simple most important thing any advertising system needs: visibility. They gave us a phone book, but we need billboards. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles

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