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The Maginot Line: History's Greatest Success?

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F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.05.21 02:34:00 - [1] Let's look at the facts: the Maginot Line was designed to prevent the Germans from invading France along their frontier. I propose that it was a monumental success. The Germans could not invade France along the Maginot Line. The only problem was that the designers failed to take into account that the invaders could go AROUND it. But the Line still served its purpose. The Germans couldn't attack it head on. If they had, they would have failed. Discuss. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Atama Cardel Even-Flow	Posted - 2008.05.21 02:58:00 - [2] I submit to you that the purpose of the Maginot Line was to stop a German invasion into France. Because the German invasion was not stopped, the Maginot Line was indeed one of histories greatest failures. tl;dr: lol france didn't think its plan through very well
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.05.21 04:02:00 - [3] Originally by: Atama Cardel I submit to you that the purpose of the Maginot Line was to stop a German invasion into France. Because the German invasion was not stopped, the Maginot Line was indeed one of histories greatest failures. tl;dr: lol france didn't think its plan through very well You fail, because the Line's intent was to stop the invasion over the Franco-German frontier. It was up to the others to defend themselves. The fact that they couldn't wasn't important to the French at the time. After the time you may make all the jokes you wish. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.21 04:10:00 - [4] it's like a good game of ... I don't want to say risk but I can't think of the other better ones... RISK! if your allied withone and they fail and the other army ram through your back lines ruining all of your bonuses, your front hasn't failed, but your ally sure did.
Zalathar Minmatar Stellar Research Incorporated DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.21 04:34:00 - [5] what you fail to take into account was that the maginot line was not finished as it was supposed to defend the belgian front too. Thus it failed as it was not complete. anyway, the best layed plans fall apart in contact with the enemy. ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge you soo pretty I think you're stunningly handsome and let me just say that you're wearing that dead parrot on your shoulder in a particularly dashing way today. -Hango Your using up all the space hango! - Timmeh
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings	Posted - 2008.05.21 04:40:00 - [6] Edited by: DubanFP on 21/05/2008 04:43:57 Ok. Lets say i have the most powerful body armor in the history of man. It can stop any weapon from penetrating my body and weighs no more then my normal t-shirt. Great idea right? Then someone comes and shoots me between the eyes where my suit doesn't protect. Hey, it did a great job at protecting my body! Doesn't really change the fact that I'm still dead though. Think death star. Sure it's invulnerable, except for this one small little hole that blows the whole damn thing up. Sorry but a defense is only flawless if it's actually flawless. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.21 06:28:00 - [7] They ran out of funds to finish it. As far as i'm aware, they hastily made basic tank traps and such along the belgian border, and i don't think the land there was good enough (too soggy) to burrow into and make big bunkers. Lastly, because they spent all their iskies on the Maginot line, they didn't have much left over for mobile forces, such as tank squadrons and such. Putting all your eggs in one basket is NEVER a good idea no matter how uber your basket is. That's just what i remember, not entirely sure how accurate it is. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Atama Cardel Even-Flow	Posted - 2008.05.21 06:49:00 - [8] Edited by: Atama Cardel on 21/05/2008 06:52:35 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Atama Cardel I submit to you that the purpose of the Maginot Line was to stop a German invasion into France. Because the German invasion was not stopped, the Maginot Line was indeed one of histories greatest failures. tl;dr: lol france didn't think its plan through very well You fail, because the Line's intent was to stop the invasion over the Franco-German frontier. It was up to the others to defend themselves. The fact that they couldn't wasn't important to the French at the time. After the time you may make all the jokes you wish. But don't you think France should have learned their lesson from the first world war when German forces marched straight through Belgium? They should have expected that German forces could do it again. Edit: just looked at a map of German advances in world war II and it looks like they moved right over the section of land that the Maginot Line was located anyway
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.21 07:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Atama Cardel Edited by: Atama Cardel on 21/05/2008 06:52:35 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Atama Cardel I submit to you that the purpose of the Maginot Line was to stop a German invasion into France. Because the German invasion was not stopped, the Maginot Line was indeed one of histories greatest failures. tl;dr: lol france didn't think its plan through very well You fail, because the Line's intent was to stop the invasion over the Franco-German frontier. It was up to the others to defend themselves. The fact that they couldn't wasn't important to the French at the time. After the time you may make all the jokes you wish. But don't you think France should have learned their lesson from the first world war when German forces marched straight through Belgium? They should have expected that German forces could do it again. Edit: just looked at a map of German advances in world war II and it looks like they moved right over the section of land that the Maginot Line was located anyway No they didn't, they went through Belgium, then attacked the Maginot line from the side/rear. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.21 07:01:00 - [10] Originally by: F'nog The only problem was that the designers failed to take into account that the invaders could go AROUND it. But the Line still served its purpose. The Germans couldn't attack it head on. If they had, they would have failed. Rather big defensive flaw if you ask me And seeing as how the Germans went around it, it fails. Brilliant tactic by the Germans though... German 1: "Hey, they got a defensive line!" German 2: "Well, how big is it?" German 1: "It stops over there" German 2: "Well, shall we walk around?" German 1: "Right-o" () () (â;..;)â (")(")
F'lan Ker Caldari DAB	Posted - 2008.05.21 08:13:00 - [11] Maginot line was limited to one direction only, so all Germans had to do was to walk past it and knock on rear door of it and order frenchies out The line was a classic example of post-WW1 thinking where armies were not thought to be as mobile as Germany's Wehrmacht was at outbreak of WW2, but limited to trench wars like in Verdun etc. So it was a total failure as no military leader is that dumb to attack such defensive installation head-on It was time for mobile war machine. Battle of Kursk in 1943 during Operation Zitadelle was largest tank battle in WW2 and a classic example of deep defences hindering advance of a mobile army effectively thus negating achieving their goal. Instead of solid lines Russians had built kind of layers of defences with mine fields, antitank guns, pillboxes etc. taking advantage of the terrain to force enemy to move from certain direction = causes more losses and slows advance down. I would call that a Great Success! So conclusion, Maginot Line was an expensive show case of building a line of bunkers to stop nothing ----------------------------------------------------- ~Let Chaos Entwine On Defenceless Soil~
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.21 09:25:00 - [12] Poor frenchies I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.05.21 10:24:00 - [13] The point of the line was that there was one very vulnerable point on the French border where an army could take a refreshing stroll into france and be bright, cheery and chirpy when it came time for battle. The line served the purpose of making the enemies actually have to strain themselves. It's kinda like locking your door when anyone with a medium sized hammer could break it down in seconds. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Haakon Jarl Caldari direkte	Posted - 2008.05.21 10:37:00 - [14] The Maginot Line was a massive failure as it was already obsolete when the Germans invaded. Had it been WW1 then it would have worked. Basically it was just a waste of money. In it for the state
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.21 11:09:00 - [15] Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/05/2008 11:09:18 Even if the germans had attacked head on the maginot line, it probably wouldn't have stopped them. Inflicted heavy losses, yes. But in a time were paratroopers could get behind it, and against the big armored divisions of germany, it would have been breached. Probably in less than a week. Not doing the france-belgium part of the line was stupid, too, but maybe it was just late, or maybe abandonned because the french planners realised that a lot of their defensive tactics have already been made obsolete by airborne troopers and the like. At the time, Germany was Europe's biggest war machine. In fact, prior to pearl harbor, that turned the US into "at-war" mode, it was probably the world's premier military power. It was europe's most populated country, with quite a bit of natural ressources, and a huge heavy industry. No continental power managed to stop them. Had the UK not been partially protected behind the Manche, it would probably have been overrun, too. ------------------------------------------
Dray Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:32:00 - [16] I had my own maginot line, and it was an epic failure, i sneezed and blew it off the table b4 i could snort it....
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:34:00 - [17] Jessica Alba: History's Greatest Success? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Kyrall Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:21:00 - [18] Everyone learns about WWII at school, same old boring stuff. Napoleonic wars however, now that is interesting! I've been reading about them just out of personal interest, and it's all great stuff. Specifically in this case, the lines of Torres Vedras. That's how it's meant to be done! Quick summary for those that don't want to read it (or don't want to get sucked into the Wikipedia vortex for the next few hours): Wellington was on the defensive in Portugal, being pushed back by the French. He operated a "scorched earth" policy as they went, and pulled back to some defensive lines of forts he had secretly made - which went from coast to coast! He then left the French to starve over the winter before pushing them out of Portugal in the Spring. - Originally by: Kyrall Pfft antivirus? Real men use a hard drive tank.
Weeman Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.21 16:31:00 - [19] Moderate success as it forced German planners to come up with a better invasion strategy than the useless one 20 years before. Any failure of this plan was overshadowed by the complete and utter French & British failure of concentrating on what was happening just to the east of Holland and missing an entire army group loitering the other side of the Ardennes waiting to steamroller through.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.21 16:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Shadowsword At the time, Germany was Europe's biggest war machine. In fact, prior to pearl harbor, that turned the US into "at-war" mode, it was probably the world's premier military power. It was europe's most populated country, with quite a bit of natural ressources, and a huge heavy industry. No continental power managed to stop them. Had the UK not been partially protected behind the Manche, it would probably have been overrun, too. Aye. Germany would win over anyone 1vs1 hands down, kinda like the US today. The UK were a close second I would suspect. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.05.21 16:48:00 - [21] 2 notes I would like to add in. The first one nobody knows how true this is but it was acquired from ****s diary. Supposedly he was a soldier on the front lines in WW1. In one instance he recalls a british soldier being a one man firing squad killing up to 12 germans. As ** was making his way out of some brush when he came face to face with the british soldiers barrel. Ready to resign to his fate the british allowed him to leave. Now if that story is true imagine how different the world would have been had that soldier pulled the trigger. Now in point 2 I believe that it wasn't the germans that started WW2 but rather the allies. After WW1 we sanctioned them to death. We placed such harsh restrictions on Germany that it put them into a major depression severly hurting the economy trying to pay off depts. True that **** had other aspirations but I think a major factor was that they were tired of being oppressed.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now in point 2 I believe that it wasn't the germans that started WW2 but rather the allies. After WW1 we sanctioned them to death. We placed such harsh restrictions on Germany that it put them into a major depression severly hurting the economy trying to pay off depts. True that **** had other aspirations but I think a major factor was that they were tired of being oppressed. Originally by:** Micheal Dietrich Now in point 2 I believe that it wasn't the germans that started WW2 but rather the allies. After WW1 we sanctioned them to death. We placed such harsh restrictions on Germany that it put them into a major depression severly hurting the economy trying to pay off depts. True that **** had other aspirations but I think a major factor was that they were tired of being oppressed. The sanctions on Germany were responsible indeed for WW2(well, ** too ofcorse), it allowed ** to gain power. You needed a wheelbarrow full of Deutche mark in order to buy bread, ofcorse people were **ed. WW1 had no good guys or bad guys like WW2, WW1 was just European superpowers going to war over stupid things. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Shalia Ripper Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: Shadowsword At the time, Germany was Europe's biggest war machine. In fact, prior to pearl harbor, that turned the US into "at-war" mode, it was probably the world's premier military power. It was europe's most populated country, with quite a bit of natural ressources, and a huge heavy industry. No continental power managed to stop them. Had the UK not been partially protected behind the Manche, it would probably have been overrun, too. Aye. Germany would win over anyone 1vs1 hands down, kinda like the US today. The UK were a close second I would suspect. Man for man, German soldiers were better than anyone. They failed due to the H-man's poor strategy. Despite all of the Allied bombing, industry was still going full tilt. They had the best weapons (for the most part) and the best men. Better logistical support from America even prior to Pearl Harbor and the Eastern Front were the two weakest links in the German chain.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Shalia Ripper the Eastern Front were the two weakest links in the German chain. I would say two fronts were the weakest links, if I read your post correctly. without the allies bombing Germany, Germany would no doubt win against the soviet union. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Elysarian dudetruck corp	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:38:00 - [25] Edited by: Elysarian on 21/05/2008 18:42:32 Originally by: F'nog Let's look at the facts: the Maginot Line was designed to prevent the Germans from invading France along their frontier. I propose that it was a monumental success. The Germans could not invade France along the Maginot Line. The only problem was that the designers failed to take into account that the invaders could go AROUND it. But the Line still served its purpose. The Germans couldn't attack it head on. If they had, they would have failed. Discuss. as other posters have commented the French ran out of money to complete the line... Apart from that, it took so long to complete that by the time the part that was finished was in use, it was obsolete (I personally think the estimate of a week to overrun it is conservative - the Germans were well practiced at Blitzkrieg tactics by the time they got around to invading France that they could likely have made a mess of the line within days). The question of how effective it would have been is moot as it wasn't, allowing the Germans to go around it and avoid any possible losses that may have occurred in a direct assault. As for the latter stages of the war, the Eastern front was a complete disaster for a number of reasons: German supply lines were spread too thin, the Soviets were deploying a "Scorched Earth" policy (as they did against Napoleonic forces previously), German losses meant that there were less troops and equipment in the west to defend against the D-Day landings when they came, German tanks were a lot more complex and prone to breakdowns than the Soviet T-43's.... etc. Aside from the above it is widely reported that ****** was in the advanced stages of some form of mental breakdown (dementia?) toward the end and was ordering non-existant units to attack/defend and his Generals and others were too afraid of his temper to disobey him.
Frezik Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Kyrall Wellington was on the defensive in Portugal, being pushed back by the French. He operated a "scorched earth" policy as they went, and pulled back to some defensive lines of forts he had secretly made - which went from coast to coast! He then left the French to starve over the winter before pushing them out of Portugal in the Spring. I'm personally fond of Lord Nelson from around the same time period as the above. The dude ordered his lone ship to take on six Spanish ships, any one of which would have out-gunned him. Although his ship was utterly shredded by cannon fire, he managed to board one of the enemy ships, take it, found out that the n00b sailors had gotten their rigging tangled with another Spanish ship, and took that one, too. If Nelson had lost, he would have been called foolhardy. Since he won, we call him daring instead. As for the Maginot Line, if it's history's greatest success because its goal was to prevent a German invasion across the French boarder, then it suffered from having too narrow of a goal. But mostly, it suffers from being a large, static defense. That means the enemy can choose when, where, and how to attack it. H-man was successful when he could do the opposite--use highly mobile forces to quickly overrun an enemy. He fell apart when those forces met two unmovable rocks known as the "English Channel" on one side and "Russian Willpower" on the other.
Haraldhardrade Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.21 20:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Frezik "Russian Willpower" on the other. Having a bachelor in WW2 history, I would use slightly different terms than willpower, though willpower certainly was a major part of the equation....eventually. The Russians often gave their soldiers two choices, die by the gun of a political commissar or die by the gun of a German soldier. The latter often being the nicest choice. What really halted the German invasion was the Russian winter. Little or no supplies combined with a freezing cold that killed soldiers and disabled tanks stopped the German offensive. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Kyrall Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.21 20:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Frezik I'm personally fond of Lord Nelson from around the same time period as the above. The dude ordered his lone ship to take on six Spanish ships, any one of which would have out-gunned him. Although his ship was utterly shredded by cannon fire, he managed to board one of the enemy ships, take it, found out that the n00b sailors had gotten their rigging tangled with another Spanish ship, and took that one, too. If Nelson had lost, he would have been called foolhardy. Since he won, we call him daring instead. Well he died because he was walking around on the open deck while under heavy enemy fire, so he was definitely daring, but I don't think we can totally rule out foolhardy! I've just finished a biography of Wellington, so now I've got to decide on Napoleon or Nelson next, unless I think of someone else first. Any suggestions? - Originally by: Kyrall Pfft antivirus? Real men use a hard drive tank.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.21 21:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Kyrall Originally by: Frezik I'm personally fond of Lord Nelson from around the same time period as the above. The dude ordered his lone ship to take on six Spanish ships, any one of which would have out-gunned him. Although his ship was utterly shredded by cannon fire, he managed to board one of the enemy ships, take it, found out that the n00b sailors had gotten their rigging tangled with another Spanish ship, and took that one, too. If Nelson had lost, he would have been called foolhardy. Since he won, we call him daring instead. Well he died because he was walking around on the open deck while under heavy enemy fire, so he was definitely daring, but I don't think we can totally rule out foolhardy! I've just finished a biography of Wellington, so now I've got to decide on Napoleon or Nelson next, unless I think of someone else first. Any suggestions? You'd be amazed at how often those 2 traits coincide () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Atama Cardel Even-Flow	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: Atama Cardel Edited by: Atama Cardel on 21/05/2008 06:52:35 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Atama Cardel I submit to you that the purpose of the Maginot Line was to stop a German invasion into France. Because the German invasion was not stopped, the Maginot Line was indeed one of histories greatest failures. tl;dr: lol france didn't think its plan through very well You fail, because the Line's intent was to stop the invasion over the Franco-German frontier. It was up to the others to defend themselves. The fact that they couldn't wasn't important to the French at the time. After the time you may make all the jokes you wish. But don't you think France should have learned their lesson from the first world war when German forces marched straight through Belgium? They should have expected that German forces could do it again. Edit: just looked at a map of German advances in world war II and it looks like they moved right over the section of land that the Maginot Line was located anyway No they didn't, they went through Belgium, then attacked the Maginot line from the side/rear. The map I'm looking at shows both an advance through Belgium and one through where the Maginot Line was, of course it does not specify if this was an air or land advancement and more than likely it was by air. (the map is in a book so no I can't link it for you to look at)

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