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The story of an ISK buyer

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:01:00 - [1] I was asked by an acquaintance of mine to relay a story of how somebody else's ISK buying habits have hurt him, and how the only punishment he got was a slap on the wrist. While my initial reaction (on top of his first request to keep him nameless and only name the ISK buyer) was to consider that wahtever punishment that scumm got was enough, after a while (and after the acquaintance reconsidered his anonymity) I came to agree with him, that this guy has hardly deserved to get away easy. I am partially posting this on his behalf in order to attract more viewers, on his request... but I am also posting this because the ISK buyer could certainly deserve a bit of extra punishment... as for what punishment, I leave that up to you. So, what's the story ? Here goes... VICTIM main char : Oftherocks Story as told by him: "Some 4 months ago I decided I wanted to buy an Amarr character to make into a Khanid PvP specialist for when I was bored of missions or my industrial endevors. I settled on the character Bob Veer, who was being sold by a Commander Krispy. I overpaid for him, but I considered it a lesson learned as it was my first character purchase. Although I was new to character purchasing, I wasn't naive, and thus made sure there was a public record (EveO Forums) of the transaction. A couple weeks ago I logged in to find Bob Veers with a negative wallet balance for a transaction with a ISK seller. I sent the GM's my proof that I never bought ISK and had only had Bob Veers for 4 months. The GM's investigated my claims and found out that I was being truthful and thus returned the ISK to Bob Veers wallet. After clearing my name I then did some research on the character who had sold Bob Veers to me. It turned out that Commander Krispy had been traded for the character Dark 'Shadow. This character was CEO of Krispy Corp LLC, which was part of the Archaean Cooperative. So I contacted some friends of mine who now run a merc corp and had them infiltracte the corp and alliance and then declare war on the alliance. Right as the war was to start, the Executor of the alliance contacted me and asked what was up. When I told him that Dark 'Shadow was a ISK buyer, he immediately booted Krispy Corp LLC from the alliance. Then, Dark 'Shadow contacted me to find out why he'd just been booted. What follows is our chat log: Dark 'Shadow > Hello Oftherocks > greetings Oftherocks > do you remember me? Dark 'Shadow > My corp just got kicked from our alliance because you guys decced us because you think I bought isk Dark 'Shadow > Not really Oftherocks > I bought Bob Veers from you Dark 'Shadow > Oo Dark 'Shadow > Oh* Oftherocks > according to the gm's, you bought isk with him before you sold him to me Dark 'Shadow > Why do they think that? Oftherocks > because he recieved a 400 million isk donation from an isk seller Dark 'Shadow > Well then, apparently I bought isk in that case Oftherocks > indeed Dark 'Shadow > What id you want me to do about it? Oftherocks > fight a war? i thought that was obvious. i think a nice war ought to sooth me. Shortly after this convo, Dark 'Shadow resigned as CEO and initiated his own departure in to a NPS corp, where he'd be untouchable. So alas my revenge was gone and my merc friends were left without a battle." Feel free to verify all claims, feel free to be suspicious... I'm merely the messenger, and trying to be as impartial as I can... although I do hate people who buy ISK from RMTers with all my heart, and I wish every last one that did that would end up chased away from EVE altogether with all their alts. So... what's the verdict guys ? Do you believe (like me) this story to be genuine, or just a fabrication ? If you do believe it, do you think that this ISK buyer got what he deserved already, or should more punishment be brought on his head ? And if you think he deserves even more punishment... what do you suggest ? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
ajerf ZanZha PleasureGirls escort agency	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:32:00 - [2] Edited by: ajerf ZanZha on 21/05/2008 13:32:53 They have proberbly done what they needed should be done in specific situation. You dont know if or what other things have happend to him. I dont like saying ccp is doing enough, but i hope they do what they think is needed.. This will end up in a flamewar......and another perma bann thread.... With the post you have made, you deffently are making sure that the dude is getting punnished, by the community and that hes character is close to un playble...what more do you want actualy, you have let the wolfes on him.....and they will now eat him up.... but as i said i dont like isk buyers, but i think its up to ccp to do what they do there way instead of publick executions...
Deej Montana Outbound Flight	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:40:00 - [3] As jaded as I've become as of late I feel your pal's story is legit. I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt Akita as you're a forum regular and as far as I can tell have nothing to gain from exposing the supposed isk buyer. That being said, I feel that if the isk buyer is still playing Eve then he got off FAR too lightly. Once these matters are investigated and a player is found to be guilty of RMT they should get a permanent ban along with all their alts and fellow conspirators. There should be no leniency, no debate, no appeal. Immediate permaban, done. Carebear? You say that like it's a bad thing....
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.05.21 13:50:00 - [4] Edited by: Dihania on 21/05/2008 13:50:17 I find the story feels legit aswell. But it sure seems strange that this player has not been banned by ccp if an investigation got place.... Also getting his isk back, was this becasue the GMs took the isk for isk buying accusations and your friend showed he had no such acitivities so the GMs reinbursed the previously taken isk ? If so iut means that they could track who the original owner of the character was and what is he doing now and act upon that guy with a punitive measure. Did they remove isk from that guys wallet ? And again. how come he was not banned ? Hmm, some loose ends. . I need isk! Accepting donations :)
Kehmor PAK	Posted - 2008.05.21 14:56:00 - [5] So uhm, what exactly do you expect us to do, and more to the point, what are you paying? - Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes.
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:09:00 - [6] I didn't think ISK buyers got banned the first few times out really. Also you don't really know how that account is associate with the account he sold. I mean CCP might not have been able to trace the purchase ISK to that toon in such away they felt justified in taking action. I think the OP is telling the truth as he/she understands it but I am not 100 sure if CCP has enough information to take action. We can only hope they investigate these thing and take the appropriate actions if you ask me.
Celestal	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:40:00 - [7] Seriously akita , what wont you do or say to try draw attention to yourself ?
Infected Cure	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:44:00 - [8] Do people use this tactic to get other users banned? just spend a few bucks on a website and direct the ISK to the person you hate and watch the account get banned?
TylerJames Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:46:00 - [9] Honestly, I take all that was written here with a grain of salt. Anytime I hear a friend of a friend or some similar statement, the validity of it goes right out the window. Besides, this sort of information is better served sent to a gm to address the problem.....all you will get here is a mob mentality that may lynch an innocent person.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:49:00 - [10] nothing beats this ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:16:00 - [11] Hire the GHSC to grief both of them out of Eve. It's the only way to be sure.
Thak Navari Uneasy Corp Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.21 17:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Erotic Irony nothing beats this Erotic is right you know nothing beats that thread though the OP should keep tabs on his isk buyer and alert every corp he enters about his isk buying.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.21 18:57:00 - [13] Not to troll/flame, heh, but um.. who cares? Random guy bought ISK and the world didn't end. Is that really so surprising?
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:37:00 - [14] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 21/05/2008 19:38:34 well i'd say proof or stfu like i usually do in such cases but you already said you don't have any. i don't exactly doubt the story but there is nothing more than my gut feeling supporting it which is hardly enough to judge another person. also tbh the substantial hate against isk buyers that you have shown in your "crusade" on general discussion makes you vulnerable to fabrications in that regard. i don't condone isk buying and i don't do it as a) feels like cheating and b) i value my eve account higher than a lot of worldly posessions i have. but i don't "hate" people because they do it. that just seems silly. its a frikkin game. besides buying isk is legal via gtc trading. i may not like it and indeed i think its stupid to buy isk from some farmers and risk your account/dignity when instead you can just get it with ccp's consent. also farmers have other negative implications (ccp not getting the money to advance the game, someone else not getting to play without paying rl money, account hacking, yada yada) as you've pointed out in one of the other threads etc. BUT the morality of it doesn't change a bit. if you think its cheating/immoral then its cheating/immoral either way. if you think its not then you can only blame the people not using the official system for their stupidity and nothing else. now back on topic the punishment. actually i think your acquaintance did suffer because of ccps actions not because of the isk buyer. i mean ffs how hard can it be to check if char has been transferred (he did use the official system afterall?!) since that time? its the 100th person to have that happened and its ccp's damn fault (and they corrected it again). really has nothing to do with the isk buyer in my opinion. but hey in my opinion char buying/selling is as bad as isk buying/selling so maybe thats why i don't have any sympathy for your protagonist. also i think if he has an open bill he should come here himself and do the math.
Avalira Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.21 19:59:00 - [15] What bothers me is not whether it is true or false but the fact that it is a possible reality. What I would find relevant is to know whether the isk seller got punished or not as there are no indications of that in the story. If he did (ie had his isk removed when the GM found out it wasn't Oftherocks) then I don't see what is wrong... for a first offence. ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
Oftherocks Of The Rocks Corp	Posted - 2008.05.21 20:33:00 - [16] First I'd like to thank Akita T for telling my story. The reason I asked him to do so was because he is well known and well respected on the forums, while I am a virtual nobody and I wished for my story to be widely read. As for proof that my story is true, well I can't post GM correspondence, and thus I am left with just the chat log I had with Dark 'Shadow. Did he recieve any punishment from the GM's? I have no way of knowing, as it is a private matter between CCP and Dark 'Shadow, but if all they did was take the ISK I feel he got off too easily. Why do I want my story told in a public venue? A couple reasons; one, he has participated in numerous character sales/trades and I want buyers to be aware that they may be buying a stained character, and two, I want this character to be ostersized as I believe all cheaters should be. I hope people will read this story and reject his emplyment applications, I hope people will refuse to do business of any kind with him, and I hope he is unable to trade characters once again in an attempt to hide his rule breaking. I don't want a flame war, I am only looking to inform the player base that the character Dark 'Shadow is a drty character. My credibility may well be questioned, but those who have played with me over the years can tell you I am an honest and fair player. If you have any specific questions about this matter, I will be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
Dede Dumdedum Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.05.21 20:36:00 - [17] what a crock of crap. ccp should punish isk buyers the same way they punish the sellers; look the other way and continue to take their monthly fee. if rmt has such a negative effect on the game, ccp needs to suck it up and ban the sellers. otherwise it's just a company policy, and there's certainly no 'moral high ground' involved. those who play at hating the isk buyers, get off your high horses. it's just pathetic, seeing as the sellers are untouched for their actions. i've petitioned several of the mail spambots advertising isk selling sites; checking on them several weeks later showed they were still in game. after that i stopped wasting my time reporting them. you can take ccp's word for it that they ban sellers regularly; my experience shows otherwise. Akita, where is your outrage at ccp for their wrongful, abrupt, and unfounded action against the innocent person you mention in the op?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.21 20:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Stakhanov Hire the GHSC to grief both of them out of Eve. It's the only way to be sure. They mostly come at night.... mostly... () () (â;..;)â (")(")
3ll3 Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.21 21:43:00 - [19] Edited by: 3ll3 on 21/05/2008 21:44:16 I just want to say to any new players reading this thread Buying Isk is a BIG Massive NO NO! It's harmfull to Eve-Online and you run the risk of being Permi-Banned from the Game, So Just Say No! Thank You!
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.05.21 21:50:00 - [20] Originally by: 3ll3 Edited by: 3ll3 on 21/05/2008 21:44:16 I just want to say to any new players reading this thread Buying Isk is a BIG Massive NO NO! It's harmfull to Eve-Online and you run the risk of being Permi-Banned from the Game, So Just Say No! Thank You! I endorse this message.
hells hunter	Posted - 2008.05.21 21:51:00 - [21] Such hyprocricy, CCP sells isk (through time cards), companies not associated with CCP sell isk, in reality what is the difference? CCP charges more!!!! People who buy isk take their chances and for many it's a trade off, they have money but not much time. You etards who hate isk buyers should take a reality check.
3ll3 Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:05:00 - [22] Actually no reality check needed as it is quite clear to me really and understandable, CCP may do so via ETC's but then again CCP own EVE-Online so they get the profit from doing so. Now those who gain profit from CCP's property which we subscribe to are in effect taking their profits and as such CCP are in my opnion in the right to come down hard on any one supporting sucha ctions buy being customers to such groups.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Dede Dumdedum what a crock of crap. ccp should punish isk buyers the same way they punish the sellers; look the other way and continue to take their monthly fee. if rmt has such a negative effect on the game, ccp needs to suck it up and ban the sellers. otherwise it's just a company policy, and there's certainly no 'moral high ground' involved. those who play at hating the isk buyers, get off your high horses. it's just pathetic, seeing as the sellers are untouched for their actions. In case you didn't know, or you DID know and just continue to proliferate the stereotype, here's some FACTS. 1. As soon as an ISK seller account is "found" (i.e. proven without a shadow of a doubt he's a RMTer, no "maybes"), that account is BANNED, and all ISK transactions he made that don't seem "legit" are reversed 2. Most accounts that can be directly linked to that RMT account are also banned, UNLESS there's reason enough to doubt one of them is linked OR they want to leave some as a "bait" to discover the next few easier 3. The amount of ISK removed from the economy by these actions is measured in tens of BILLIONS, on a DAILY basis. Quote: i've petitioned several of the mail spambots advertising isk selling sites; checking on them several weeks later showed they were still in game. after that i stopped wasting my time reporting them. you can take ccp's word for it that they ban sellers regularly; my experience shows otherwise. If by that you mean the characters were still "alive", that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. DID YOU see them ONLINE ? Then yes, you would start having a case. However, have you checked several MONTHS later too ? Just because you don't SEE each and every macro/farmer/spammer "vanish" instantly doesn't mean they're not investigated, linked and subsequently punished. Just because you personally don't understand how these investigation work, or how long they take, that doesn't give you tthe right to call CCPs liars. Quote: Akita, where is your outrage at ccp for their wrongful, abrupt, and unfounded action against the innocent person you mention in the op? Their action was justified, but they didn't check all the facts thoroughly enough. If anything, they're guilty of being too harsh and acting on TOO LITTLE information. They did reverse the penalty as soon as it was brought to their attention, didn't they ? So, should I blame them for being overly zealous and only human (i.e. making a mistake) ? Originally by: hells hunter Such hyprocricy, CCP sells isk (through time cards), companies not associated with CCP sell isk, in reality what is the difference? CCP charges more!!!! People who buy isk take their chances and for many it's a trade off, they have money but not much time. You etards who hate isk buyers should take a reality check. 15+ page thread about exactly this. Feel free to "contribute" your majestic wisdom to it. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
grokouik Scordite Mining Inc	Posted - 2008.05.21 22:42:00 - [24] I'll answer to this posting: Originally by: hells hunter Such hyprocricy, CCP sells isk (through time cards), companies not associated with CCP sell isk, in reality what is the difference? CCP charges more!!!! People who buy isk take their chances and for many it's a trade off, they have money but not much time. You etards who hate isk buyers should take a reality check. First of, CCP don't sell ISK to anyone. They do sell ETC, however. Second, Players buy those ETC from either CCP or an approved retailer. Third, Players choose to exchange that bought ETC (game time) for ISK some other Players collected. So, from a CCP point of view, they sold game time, and that game time has been used. From the seller point of view, he bought game time, and exchanged it for isk. It can be seen as "buying isk for real money", if you keep in mind that the isk value of your ETC varies accordingly to market laws. From the buyer point of view, he bought game time for more ingame currency. So he will probably make some more money to being able to play for free continuously. My personal opinion is that of all those transations, CCP and the buyer have clean hands. And I find it an elegant solution to minimize the RTM effect in the game. So, to correct what you said: - "CCP sells isk (through time cards)" => they don't, they sell game time, and that game time is used by someone - "CCP charges more" => CCP charges nothing for isk. The Player buying the ETC, however "charges" for the isk he earned. Or maybe is it the ETC seller that "charges" in ISK for the money he bought the ETC? But, if you want to sell a 30day ETC for 2B isk, nobody stops you. But you may find difficult to find a customer. - "People who buy isk take their chances and for many it's a trade off, they have money but not much time." => I understand your statement, but find it twisted. If they have money, why don't they buy ETC and sell them for ISK? They take their chance, as you say, and i wish them to fail. -"You etards who hate isk buyers should take a reality check." => Done that. And you still fail, sir. I don't sell nor buy ETC for isk, got 2 accounts, but understand each side. "Understanding" doesn't mean "aggreing". Best regards, Grokouik.
hells hunter	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:05:00 - [25] I think discussion is fine and disagreement is nps, my beef is with people who make out that isk buyers are pure evil and are ruining the game when it is bleedingly obvious to me that the difference between CCP and isk sellers is miniscule. If CCP didn't sell isk (via game time), then I wouldn't have an argument, but they do and that makes the people who hate isk sellers and buyers pretty lame.
Oftherocks Of The Rocks Corp	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:34:00 - [26] Originally by: hells hunter I think discussion is fine and disagreement is nps, my beef is with people who make out that isk buyers are pure evil and are ruining the game when it is bleedingly obvious to me that the difference between CCP and isk sellers is miniscule. If CCP didn't sell isk (via game time), then I wouldn't have an argument, but they do and that makes the people who hate isk sellers and buyers pretty lame. It isn't that I hate ISK buyers (I don't even know them, how could I hate them), it is just that I view them as cheaters, and cheaters HURT the game, not ruin it, but hurt it. A couple years ago there were some complexes where the overseer was bugged and certain people took advantage of it, and after a while CCP even asked them not to, but they continued anyway. Those people were cheaters, they didn't ruin the game, but they hurt it by gaining unfair advantage. The same could be said of any number of cheats and exploits used over the years, they don't ruin Eve, but they sure do damage it. As for buying ISK via GTC, I agree, it is a bit hypocritical, but as long as CCP says it is within the rules, it isn't cheating, and therefore I see nothing to do about it but to write to CCP and explain why you think it is bad. But just because CCP has said one thing is legal and another thing similar is illegal, it doest change the fact that the one thing IS illegal. My point isn't to argue the rules, CCP makes em, we follow them; my point is to say, "hey, this guy is a cheater, don't do business with him, don't trade characters with him, and don't offer him assistance, because he is a cheater!"
3ll3 Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:50:00 - [27] hells hunter where did I say I hate those who buy and sell Isk? I dissaprove and feel it justified for CCP to come down on those who groups who sell Isk, but it does not mean I hate any one. and All I did was to warn any one new to th egame reading this thread the dangers of doing so and your jumping down my throat
hells hunter	Posted - 2008.05.21 23:51:00 - [28] Edited by: hells hunter on 21/05/2008 23:51:34 That sounds just like the Gestapo after WW2 - we were just following orders. Sure CCP make the rules but if a rule is obviously hyprocritical I think you should have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that and stop demonising people who buy isk but not through CCP One of the interesting aspects of CCP selling game time is that isk sellers are some of the major buyers - lol. CCP has made it that they don't even have to pay rtm to farm isk, how does that make you feel? I'm not having a go at you 3ll3 btw :)
Oftherocks Of The Rocks Corp	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:03:00 - [29] Edited by: Oftherocks on 22/05/2008 00:04:39 Edited by: Oftherocks on 22/05/2008 00:03:46 Originally by: hells hunter Edited by: hells hunter on 21/05/2008 23:51:34 That sounds just like the Gestapo after WW2 - we were just following orders. What? I'll assume you are a bit angry and making totally irrational arguments right now and not take any personal offense by that comment. Do you follow American football at all? In American football, there is a rule called the "tuck rule". It is a horrible rule and everyone agrees it is a horrible rule. But if some Sunday an officiating crew just stopped calling the "tuck rule", wouldn't that be cheating, and thus unfair? Cheating is cheating, no matter how close it is to being within the rules, if it is even a millimeter out of the accepted rules, it is cheating.
hells hunter	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:12:00 - [30] Offtherocks, I agree with you that my argument has drifted from my original point, as I have no problem with CCP making and enforcing any rules that they want to. My problem is with people like the OP who go out of their way to demonise an isk buyer when in reality CCP sanctions that behaviour by selling game time. If on the other hand the OP also went in hard against people buying game time from CCP with isk, I wouldn't take issue. It's the selective hate that I find moronic.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Stakhanov Hire the GHSC to grief both of them out of Eve. It's the only way to be sure. They mostly come at night.... mostly... And then nuke them from orbit.
Rogaru Sacred Templars DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:52:00 - [32] I bought this char about 7 months ago with isk (legal, via forums etc etc). About 3 weeks ago I logged in and found my wallet was negative 3.5billion. Obvioulsy I petitioned, and got the usual "isk buying is bad mmmmk" I replied I bought this char via forums (gave links etc), and that all the transactions occured before I bought the char. The reversed the negative balance on my account, and put the SELLERS other char into negative -3.5b. So the isk buyer gets punished - even if they try to offload their "dirty" characters.
3ll3 Tranquillity Nation	Posted - 2008.05.22 00:53:00 - [33] My apolagise to you then hells hunter
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:12:00 - [34] Originally by: hells hunter My problem is with people like the OP who go out of their way to demonise an isk buyer when in reality CCP sanctions that behaviour by selling game time. Naturally, it's idiocy that you have to pay real money for game time. You should be able to play for free!
Oftherocks Of The Rocks Corp	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:16:00 - [35] Originally by: hells hunter Offtherocks, I agree with you that my argument has drifted from my original point, as I have no problem with CCP making and enforcing any rules that they want to. My problem is with people like the OP who go out of their way to demonise an isk buyer when in reality CCP sanctions that behaviour by selling game time. If on the other hand the OP also went in hard against people buying game time from CCP with isk, I wouldn't take issue. It's the selective hate that I find moronic. Let me start by saying I have no intention of starting an argument with you, but the thing is I asked the OP to make this post so that it would get more reads, and therefore I feel I should defend Akita. You may not believe this, but the OP was very hesitant to make this post for me, he even cautioned that it would likely turn into a flame war, when I was hoping to inform people of a cheater. So I think it is unfair to say the OP is coming in on some high horse preaching down to the masses. Go back and read the OP, at no time does the word Hate come up. While he believes me, his post specifically says to the reader, feel free to be sceptical, feel free to question, make your own conclusions. I know Akita has a very strong opinion on this form of cheating, but in this particular post, I do not see him deamonizing isk buyers. I wanted this to be an informative post, a warning to others about a specific individual who cheats, nothing more. So I ask you kindly, take the OP as a messanger who was asked to deliver a message by someone who just wanted to maximize the readership of my story. Think of the OP as a Celebrity doing a public service announcment, and if you have a problem with the announcement, come after me, it is my story, Akita was just doing me a favor. Thanks, Oftherocks
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:33:00 - [36] Well, to be fair, the word "hate" was used in the OP by me. But it was used in a very specific context, and the "target" was a single type of individuals. The target was "people who buy ISK from a RMTer". Like I said, I have no big problem with the concept of ISK buying per se. Yes, it's unpleasant, somewhat unfair for those who won't do it. I personally would never buy ISK. I urge people I know not to buy ISK, not even via GTCs. What I do have a problem with is people who try to PROFIT from this game by selling ISK for real-life money. The people that clog the server with 23/7 farming shared-ownership accounts. And by extension, the people that give them the reason to exist by purchasing ISK from those RMTers. Now, while "buying ISK" is bad, "buying ISK from a RMTer" is much worse. ESPECIALLY when CCP kindly allows you to buy it in VERY SMALL packages from SEVERAL people, at the same time not allowing anybody to make a real-world profit out of it, by NOT allowing anybody to "sell" more ISK than what it would take them to pay for the subscription. So, for the Nth time... Is ISK buying bad ? YES, wether you do it via GTC or from a RMTer. But which is WORSE ? You'd have to be a fool to claim the damage is anywhere near the same magnitude, and you'd be an even greater fool to claim anybody but CCP has a right to make money from this game we're playing. ____ So, while CCP only gently slaps the hand of an ISK buyer (by removing the ISK) the first time or first couple of times, while at the same time fighting as hard as possible to contain the RMT/farm acounts (while inevitably failing to do a "perfect job" given limited human resources available and increasing lack of cooperation from the player base), it's THOS people, the ones that BUY ISK FROM RMTers that are the underlying CAUSE for all the RMT problems. Want to buy ISK so badly ? CCP gave you an alternative. An alternative where the people that DESERVE the money (CCP) get them, where no ISK is generated out of thin air (another GENUINE player does that, not a 23/7 farm account), and where every person gets the CHANCE to pay for their gametime with somebody else's money (money they would have had to pay instea if they wished to continue playing). It's a win/win/stalemate alternative, where the "stalemate" is for people that hate ISK buying as a whole concept so much that they can't grasp the fact this is the only LOGICAL alternative where the damage "ISK buying" is not only minimized, but also used to do a little bit of good. So, yet again... do I hate ISK buyers ? Yes, but ONLY those that buy their ISK from a RMTer. For the ones buying the ISK with GTC, I only feel pity.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:36:00 - [37] the hipocrisy in here is pathetic. wheres the outrage for players using alts to CHEAT? there are tons of ways to cheat in this game, but the only ones that need to be burned at the stake are those you cant afford to do. nice
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:42:00 - [38] You're not the one setting the rules. It's not your game. CCP is the only authority on what IS cheating and what isn't. If you don't like the rules of the game, quit.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:45:00 - [39] Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 22/05/2008 01:46:11 Originally by: Akita T You're not the one setting the rules. It's not your game. CCP is the only authority on what IS cheating and what isn't. If you don't like the rules of the game, quit. so then why are you playing this high and mighty MORAL authority when it just boils down to whatever CCP says is right and whatever it says is wrong and stop justifying it by calling those you dont like personally cheaters. stop it with this stupid biased crusade
Oftherocks Of The Rocks Corp	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 22/05/2008 01:46:11 Originally by: Akita T You're not the one setting the rules. It's not your game. CCP is the only authority on what IS cheating and what isn't. If you don't like the rules of the game, quit. so then why are you playing this high and mighty MORAL authority when it just boils down to whatever CCP says is right and whatever it says is wrong and stop justifying it by calling those you dont like personally cheaters. stop it with this stupid biased crusade I'm going to assume English is not your native language because frankly, you make absolutely no logical argument in your statement. Are you saying because Akita is in this case arguing against ISK buying cheaters instead of all the other cheaters his argument is somehow invalid? Are you aware there are actual rules to this game, not just what seems fair and just to you, but actual rules, and breaking those actual rules IS cheating, but doing what you think is unfair, but not disallowed by the rules is NOT cheating?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 01:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Arctur Ceti so then why are you playing this high and mighty MORAL authority when it just boils down to whatever CCP says is right and whatever it says is wrong and stop justifying it by calling those you dont like personally cheaters. stop it with this stupid biased crusade MORAL authority ? What part of my post was "moral" ? I was merely stating a fact : people that BUY ISK from RMTers enable the RMTers existance in the first place, and then the RMTers flood and clog the game with 23/7 double-shift-shared and/or macro-aided accounts whose sole purpose is to get ISK to sell for cash (and that's if they're mild-mannered enough, since there's enough evidence buyers have been occasionally finding themselves robbed of ISK, assets or even with all the CHARACTERS on their accounts sold off). And if you think that's a fabrication or a simple hypothesis instead of observed fact, I pity you. There's no question about it : RMT is bad, because it sucks away cash from the people that maintain the game, to the people who actually do nothing to promote it, quite the contrary. It's not a MORAL argument, it's a FINANCIAL argument. Who is entitled to the cash and who isn't. CCP certainly is. The farmers certainly aren't. What's there to debate ? And another thing there's no question about : would nobody BUY ISK FROM RMTers, they would simply not exist. It's as simple as that. The existance of ISK buyers willing to buy ISK outside the "allowed" method causes their very being. Also, while I did use the word "hate", I believe I never used the word "cheater", not once before you said it first and I had to respond to it. And when I DID respond, I merely stated that you are not the authority on deciding what cheating is or isn't.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:11:00 - [42] ok then, what's your point in posting this on the forums? you agree ccp decides the rules and i'll assume you're ok with ccp deciding the punishment for the crime as well, right?. then why the crusade against this player that probably has already been punished by ccp? what's your point? it seems you want this player punished further. why? why cant you let ccp handle this? why are you trying to drive him out of the game? why are you taking justice in your own hands?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:23:00 - [43] Originally by: Arctur Ceti bla bla bla Go back to the OP and read the last paragraph. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Oftherocks Of The Rocks Corp	Posted - 2008.05.22 02:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 22/05/2008 02:15:36 ok then, what's your point in posting this on the forums? you agree ccp decides the rules and i'll assume you're ok with ccp deciding the punishment for the crime as well, right?. then why the crusade against this player that probably has already been punished by ccp? what's your point? it seems you want this player punished further. why? why cant you let ccp handle this? why are you trying to drive him out of the game? why are you taking justice in your own hands? if you believe so much that ccp is the decider, then why not trust whatever decision they made with this specific buyer? like i said HIPOCRISY, that's why. In a way you are right, this is vigilante justice. But I think of it more as a warning, letting people know what type of person this character is. I don't want someone else to log in to a negative balance because they had dealings with him. I don't want other people to have to wait a week before they get their ISK back. That is my true intention, to inform and protect others who aren't breaking the rules.
Treean	Posted - 2008.05.22 04:40:00 - [45] CCP should ultimately be reviewing characters being traded for illegitimate ISK purchasing activities before the buyer receives the character. Stories like this about people purchasing isk and then selling the character are getting more and more common.
spanky herman Gulfonodi Industries Shadow Donkeys	Posted - 2008.05.22 05:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Edited by: Arctur Ceti on 22/05/2008 01:38:02 the hipocrisy in here is pathetic. wheres the outrage for players using alts to CHEAT? there are tons of ways to cheat in this game, but the only ones that irk you are the ones you cant afford. nice It's not cheating to have multiple characters. I have one for each of the voices in my head ( I would call them personalities but my CEO insists I have no personality).

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