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[issue] Evaluation of empire war dec mechanics

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De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:04:00 - [121] tl;dr: Are wardecs broken? Yes. Should they be eliminated: No. Long version: As a self-proclaimed mission running, item making, asteroid killing goddess of doom (tm) (AKA a carebear - really, ya'll say that like it's a bad thing), I still understand that I can, at any time, be attacked...wait for it...even WITHOUT a wardec. Suicide ganking anyone? Wars can be declared and fought for a wide variety of reasons, including resources, rebellions, honor, and plain old fashioned, "I just hate you and I want you to die (in-game in this case)". Our corporation has been war-decced in the past, and I am sure it will be again in the future. We even discussed wardeccing another corp. Why? Because we wanted the asteroids they keep mining out from under us. Basically, we just wanted them to go away - or at least cut back their operations in that system. We ultimately decided not to pursue the wardec because the potential costs outweighed the benefits. Wardecs are indeed a tool of greifers. But that doesn't mean they don't have legitamate uses. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:15:00 - [122] Originally by: De'Veldrin tl;dr: Are wardecs broken? Yes. Should they be eliminated: No. Long version: As a self-proclaimed mission running, item making, asteroid killing goddess of doom (tm) (AKA a carebear - really, ya'll say that like it's a bad thing), I still understand that I can, at any time, be attacked...wait for it...even WITHOUT a wardec. Suicide ganking anyone? Wars can be declared and fought for a wide variety of reasons, including resources, rebellions, honor, and plain old fashioned, "I just hate you and I want you to die (in-game in this case)". Our corporation has been war-decced in the past, and I am sure it will be again in the future. We even discussed wardeccing another corp. Why? Because we wanted the asteroids they keep mining out from under us. Basically, we just wanted them to go away - or at least cut back their operations in that system. We ultimately decided not to pursue the wardec because the potential costs outweighed the benefits. Wardecs are indeed a tool of greifers. But that doesn't mean they don't have legitamate uses. Agreed... our alliance's current last 2 war-decs have been nothing short of a total pain in the side. Even they admit its to ultimately grief. And when you do put up a fight... they go hide and run and laugh all the way...and smack to top it off. Thats just utterly wrong. And the majority of the corps just don't have the isk to hire a merc because they are too busy trying to make up for losses already incurred. Which adds to the alt plague.... how the hell else do you expect anyone to get anything done? : O P ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:11:00 - [123] If people with no skill formed a corporation in real life, they would be demolished by their competition. Its no different in eve. If you want to compete, be in a diversified corp or face getting shut down, no corp full of noobs only should ever feel like they have a right to exist.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:14:00 - [124] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar If people with no skill formed a corporation in real life, they would be demolished by their competition. Its no different in eve. If you want to compete, be in a diversified corp or face getting shut down, no corp full of noobs only should ever feel like they have a right to exist. People who have no skill who form corporations in real life tend to succeed because they have the right to exist and give it a good shot... people in real life don't declare war and shoot people in the heads or mow down there resources. Comparing real life to EVE Online makes one look like a jackass. EVE is not 100% PVP.... nor is it 100% "Carebear/Hello Kitty"... get it through your thick skulls people. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:18:00 - [125] Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Dizeezer Velar If people with no skill formed a corporation in real life, they would be demolished by their competition. Its no different in eve. If you want to compete, be in a diversified corp or face getting shut down, no corp full of noobs only should ever feel like they have a right to exist. People who have no skill who form corporations in real life tend to succeed because they have the right to exist and give it a good shot... people in real life don't declare war and shoot people in the heads or mow down there resources. Comparing real life to EVE Online makes one look like a jackass. EVE is not 100% PVP.... nor is it 100% "Carebear/Hello Kitty"... get it through your thick skulls people. Wow, you are a moron. No kidding it's not exactly the same, RL and EVE have different mechanics. We aren't flying spaceships IRL. The outcome is the same however, an inexperienced corp full of inexperienced people won't fare well IRL nor should it in EVE.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.20 18:56:00 - [126] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 20/05/2009 18:20:23 Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Dizeezer Velar If people with no skill formed a corporation in real life, they would be demolished by their competition. Its no different in eve. If you want to compete, be in a diversified corp or face getting shut down, no corp full of noobs only should ever feel like they have a right to exist. People who have no skill who form corporations in real life tend to succeed because they have the right to exist and give it a good shot... people in real life don't declare war and shoot people in the heads or mow down there resources. Comparing real life to EVE Online makes one look like a jackass. EVE is not 100% PVP.... nor is it 100% "Carebear/Hello Kitty"... get it through your thick skulls people. Wow, you are a moron. No kidding it's not exactly the same, RL and EVE have different mechanics. We aren't flying spaceships IRL. The outcome is the same however, an inexperienced corp full of inexperienced people won't fare well IRL nor should it in EVE. If you hire the right people and diversify then you'll fare better IRL and in EVE. Once again your comparing EVE to real life... stop being a hypocritical contradiction of terms and come back down to earth eh? ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2009.05.20 20:23:00 - [127] Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 20/05/2009 18:20:23 Originally by: Drake Draconis Originally by: Dizeezer Velar If people with no skill formed a corporation in real life, they would be demolished by their competition. Its no different in eve. If you want to compete, be in a diversified corp or face getting shut down, no corp full of noobs only should ever feel like they have a right to exist. People who have no skill who form corporations in real life tend to succeed because they have the right to exist and give it a good shot... people in real life don't declare war and shoot people in the heads or mow down there resources. Comparing real life to EVE Online makes one look like a jackass. EVE is not 100% PVP.... nor is it 100% "Carebear/Hello Kitty"... get it through your thick skulls people. Wow, you are a moron. No kidding it's not exactly the same, RL and EVE have different mechanics. We aren't flying spaceships IRL. The outcome is the same however, an inexperienced corp full of inexperienced people won't fare well IRL nor should it in EVE. If you hire the right people and diversify then you'll fare better IRL and in EVE. Once again your comparing EVE to real life... stop being a hypocritical contradiction of terms and come back down to earth eh? My point is made and it's valid. Your choice to live in denial is your own.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.20 20:42:00 - [128] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/05/2009 20:48:27 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/05/2009 20:46:36 Your point is hypocritical and refuses to accept the fact that its not as cut and dry as you think it is. So get your PVP centric thumb out of your ass and join the discussion constructively or kindly take a hike. A balance must be struck... telling everyone to adapt or die in this context is like saying you don't give a rats ass about whatever anyone else thinks and you want to force the issue. Dig a little deeper than what you see on the surface and you just might find out why I refuse to take EITHER side in this little debate. I do not favor the war-dec system as it is in its current state... nor do I favor nerfing it either. It is too easy to start a war-dec let alone pay for one. It's way to easy to abuse it and use it as a pay to grief tool. There is potentially no end to a war-dec for so long as you have any amount of ISK to be spent. No one really makes any money in a war-dec which is why a large number of industrialist and carebears don't particllary like it. It has nothing to do with skill This is the classic case of playground bully versus the little guys.... or whomever the bully would want to kick around. Breaking apart upstart corps forces them to NPC Alts.... and alts upon alts upon alts. Station games...abuse of neutral remote repping, abuse of undock redock....abuse of stargate hopping. War-decs favor those who wish to win and will not accept losses or any particular lack of kill mails. War-decs only end when you get bored or run out of money.... that said... lets see you come up with a solution as opposed to telling people to adapt or die Mr. holier than thou. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2009.05.20 21:39:00 - [129] Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 20/05/2009 21:46:27 Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/05/2009 20:48:27 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/05/2009 20:46:36 Your point is hypocritical and refuses to accept the fact that its not as cut and dry as you think it is. So get your PVP centric thumb out of your ass and join the discussion constructively or kindly take a hike. A balance must be struck... telling everyone to adapt or die in this context is like saying you don't give a rats ass about whatever anyone else thinks and you want to force the issue. Dig a little deeper than what you see on the surface and you just might find out why I refuse to take EITHER side in this little debate. I do not favor the war-dec system as it is in its current state... nor do I favor nerfing it either. It is too easy to start a war-dec let alone pay for one. It's way to easy to abuse it and use it as a pay to grief tool. There is potentially no end to a war-dec for so long as you have any amount of ISK to be spent. No one really makes any money in a war-dec which is why a large number of industrialist and carebears don't particllary like it. It has nothing to do with skill This is the classic case of playground bully versus the little guys.... or whomever the bully would want to kick around. Breaking apart upstart corps forces them to NPC Alts.... and alts upon alts upon alts. Station games...abuse of neutral remote repping, abuse of undock redock....abuse of stargate hopping. War-decs favor those who wish to win and will not accept losses or any particular lack of kill mails. War-decs only end when you get bored or run out of money.... that said... lets see you come up with a solution as opposed to telling people to adapt or die Mr. holier than thou. Nothing is wrong with the wardec system. You play a game with non consensual PVP. If you would have read a little about the game before you joined, you would have realized that and wouldn't be complaining here. Everyone was once a noob, I didn't complain about wardecs then and I don't complain now. Once again, if you fly in an unorganized corp full of newbs with no experience, you choose to sleep in the bed you made. When I started eve more than 3 years ago, I was a member of a failing noob alliance who got destroyed by Triumvirate. They caused the destruction of the alliance and it was beautiful. It made me fully appreciate the benefit of being organized and inspired me to be better at this game. The only problem I have is with whiners who ruin perfectly fine game mechanics.
Keitoshi Yamada Caldari Mjolnir Inc. Mjolnir Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.20 22:23:00 - [130] No Support, though I support the idea of a wardec revision. The "Victory Conditions" idea is neat, and would be awesome to have anyway, but would solve no problems. Your proposal still puts the aggressed at the mercy of the aggressor, wars could still be dragged on indefinitely. Crumple, Toss, and Try Again.

Kasi Kasai	Posted - 2009.05.20 23:17:00 - [131] Wardec to fight fine, wardec to grief, bleh, hire mercs and give them (the mercs) a reason to exist.
Ender Vis Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:28:00 - [132] I support a revision for wardecs, not necessarily this particular concept. The revision should be made with the intention to make high-sec politics more interesting and possibly giving some leniency to newer players. I think there should be a corp ranking somewhere based on performance in wars (then again isn't this handled by killboards?). I think there should be some Corporate/Alliance ranking with CONCORD which affects the price for wardeccing, I think this should be negatively affected by repeatedly beating up on newbie corps and/or negative average security ratings of pilots within the corp. (Ie, it's cheaper to dec a corp who's naughty (according to CONCORD) and more expensive to dec goody two-shoes). Possibly an implementation similar to bounty only on the corp level as well. The idea is to make arbitrary griefing more difficult and merc/ bounty hunter activity more interesting. Naturally the people who are looking for fights are going to hang out in low-sec and accrue negative sec, making them easier to wardec. I don't think there should be any absolute protection though, if you're a new corp your best defence is to stay off of the radar. Besides, it's a learning experience when you get 'decced. Keep EVE civilised, say no to carebarianism.
Izo Alabaster Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company	Posted - 2009.05.22 12:23:00 - [133] Originally by: Sep'Shoni Originally by: Izo Alabaster ... Most of those who want to defang the current highsec warfare system don't appreciate just how difficult it is to conduct highsec warfare. It's not a matter of just sitting on a gate and WTFBBQing everything that comes through the gate (which is easy). Instead, you have to hunt for targets, sometimes for hours, before you get a single kill. It's often times very time consuming, tedious work. It requires a great degree of skill and patience in order to be successful at highsec warfare. ... I'm sure that killing mining barges and industrials is truly an amazingly difficult feat that can be accomplished only by players of such advanced training and skills that the victims should be delighted to grovel at the griefers' feet and consider licking their boots a privilege. Actually, it's very difficult. I welcome you to try it and to get anything other than random kills. The amount of effort it takes to get even a single non-random kill in highsec warfare is substantially more than the amount of effort it takes to avoid being killed. 90% of the difficulty of the kill occurs before the warp disruptor ever gets activated. Originally by: CCP Nozh Are BS useless in solo combat? The larger ship still has many benefits: * Can fit smaller weapons to fend off smaller targets * More slots allow EW counter measures
Izo Alabaster Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company	Posted - 2009.05.22 12:34:00 - [134] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 20/05/2009 21:58:11 When I started eve more than 3 years ago, I was a member of a failing noob alliance who got destroyed by Triumvirate. They caused the destruction of the alliance and it was beautiful. It made me fully appreciate the benefit of being organized and inspired me to be better at this game. You say "wardecs end when you get bored or run out of money". That is a very narrow and false viewpoint. If you have any form of diplomat, usually surrender terms are quite negotiable. This is left up to the player and not some hand holding set of initiatives set up by CCP. It's perfect, one of the last perfect things remaining about EvE. The only problem I have is with whiners who ruin perfectly fine game mechanics. If you change this game mechanic, you are further emptying the sand out of this sandbox game. You said it well and I couldn't agree more. Sandbox (open) game. Sandbox (open) rules. Don't like them, negotiate with the opposing side. Most are reasonable. If they're not reasonable, get mercenaries, etc. The system works as it is. The way some of these guys go on, it's as if actually interacting with other people in an MMO is such a tragic experience. Originally by: CCP Nozh Are BS useless in solo combat? The larger ship still has many benefits: * Can fit smaller weapons to fend off smaller targets * More slots allow EW counter measures
Izo Alabaster Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company	Posted - 2009.05.22 12:52:00 - [135] Originally by: Ender Vis I think there should be some Corporate/Alliance ranking with CONCORD which affects the price for wardeccing, I think this should be negatively affected by repeatedly beating up on newbie corps and/or negative average security ratings of pilots within the corp. (Ie, it's cheaper to dec a corp who's naughty (according to CONCORD) and more expensive to dec goody two-shoes). What you're calling for here would unnecessarily damage mercenary alliances such as Atomic Battle Penguins, REPO, etc. It would be abused by those who can abuse it, and would only complicate what is currently a simple and fair system that encourages in-EVE diplomacy and politics, which is in my opinion, a good thing. Quote: The idea is to make arbitrary griefing more difficult and merc/ bounty hunter activity more interesting. Who are you to decide that arbitrary griefing is wrong? Decreasing the ability of people to arbitrarily grief also decreases their freedom to act as they feel is suitable in a given situation. It inhibits the use of diplomacy and politics, and would take this game another step closer to being Space-WoW. For instance, if a person is salvaging your mission and you don't like that, you can wardec his corp and teach them a lesson, or even hire mercenaries to do it for you. They can wardec back, etc. etc. The freedom to wardec who you choose encourages a genuine use of politics in EVE which is dynamic and unlike any other MMO out there. Originally by: CCP Nozh Are BS useless in solo combat? The larger ship still has many benefits: * Can fit smaller weapons to fend off smaller targets * More slots allow EW counter measures


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