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Jonny needs reassured about the state of Minny BS!

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JonnyKay Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.30 00:11:00 - [1] I've just come back to eve from a bit of a break and have lost touch of the game a bit. There seems to be no recent topics on this matter. I am a long term minny player and have trained all the way into T2 large projectiles and level 5 minny bs just to show my dedication. My question is simple. What is the current state of the Minmatar BS? i.e. How well do they perform when compared to other race's BS in fleet / pvp gangs and solo pvp? (PS: No i am not querying how well minmatar perform in the cruiser department or anything else, just the battleship area only.) Thanks for taking the time to read/reply ______________ Hell's Bells commin to get j00!!
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.30 00:22:00 - [2] Typhoon with good skills is sex. Maelstrom is pretty hot. Tempest is kinda a joke, but it's a cheap arty platform. Generally speaking there are better ships to do anything the minmatar ships can do, but flying a minnie BS with a good fit and good skills means you won't get embarrassed too badly vs other BSs. Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
NoNah	Posted - 2008.05.30 00:22:00 - [3] Typhoon is pretty much the ultimate standard(tech 1, non-faction) BS around for solo, granted it's also the most skillintensive one around. Tempest does it's AC-role decently, but is generally subpar when it comes to sniping. Maelstrom is really good for small gangs, and far from as skill-intensive as the phoon. As for fleet, I daresay they're generally sub-par, due to the state of arties at current. They're not crap, they're just not top-notch. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 20998
JonnyKay Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.30 00:37:00 - [4] thing was, i was thinking of getting a Fleet Issue Tempest (Tempests are one of my fave BS). I really want tempests to be good, but from what people are saying, they dont seem that great :S i used EFT to set up a Fleet tempest with roughly 1000 dps and a good tank of over 1200 dps. ______________ Hell's Bells commin to get j00!!
Ecky X Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.30 00:45:00 - [5] Does it have a MWD, point, and web? Look into getting a Machariel, they are very nice.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.30 01:38:00 - [6] Umm: Phoon: All good fits require T2 torps. Tempest: Uhhhh, lol right? Maelstrom: Fairly decent AC boat. BS Autocannons: Pretty decent. I wouldn't change anything about them, except to change TE's and TC's to have falloff (now that TD's affect falloff). BS Artillery: Uh, they provably suck. There's a thread or two per week about it. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus	Posted - 2008.05.30 03:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Vaal Erit Typhoon with good skills is sex. Maelstrom is pretty hot. Tempest is kinda a joke, but it's a cheap arty platform. Generally speaking there are better ships to do anything the minmatar ships can do, but flying a minnie BS with a good fit and good skills means you won't get embarrassed too badly vs other BSs. Typhoon has always been awesome. Tempest is meh. And the capital-shield boosting Mael is still a good bait ship. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Lego Maniac	Posted - 2008.05.30 09:02:00 - [8] Originally by: JonnyKay thing was, i was thinking of getting a Fleet Issue Tempest (Tempests are one of my fave BS). I really want tempests to be good, but from what people are saying, they dont seem that great :S i used EFT to set up a Fleet tempest with roughly 1000 dps and a good tank of over 1200 dps. assuming you stuck autocannons onto it, that will be roughly 500 dps beyond 30km however, I would like to take this time to put in a plug for the phoon go phoons!
Suzuko Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.30 09:21:00 - [9] Tempest: The alpha from a properly fit arty Tempest can cripple most Cruisers in 1-2 volleys, and while it's sniping capabilities are not as well-known or effective as ships like the Rohk or Megathron, it can get the job done. This makes it awesome in the right PvP situation - not so great in missions where you need sustained DPS / tanking. Maelstrom: Effective in both missioning and pvp. While you're pretty much restricted to the Shield Tank / Arty setup with this ship, it does a damn good job of it. Functions as a good all-around BS in PvP, but it's Arties have a hard time hitting anything smaller than a BC that isn't webbed. In PvE, as stated, it's much less skill-intensive than stuff like the Phoon, and despite it's higher cost, it's probably the better missioning Min BS for younger characters. The PHEWN: Possibly the best first-tier BS in EvE just because of how many different kinds of fits you can put on it and it still be effective. Nos / Neut fit, Arty / Cruise, Super Tanker, even Torp / AC fits, and more. All the while the massive drone bay means it can bring 5 heavies to the party and still have room left for a rack of medium ECMs or Warrior IIs. Whether you're missioning or murdering, the Phoon can do it all, provided you have the skills to back it up.
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.30 09:36:00 - [10] The "consensus" is that the Tempest now sucks because NOS and ECM was nerfed some centuries ago. See the connection? Me neither.

Chackle Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.30 09:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Ruciza The "consensus" is that the Tempest now sucks because NOS and ECM was nerfed some centuries ago. See the connection? Me neither. Yeah I can't see whats changed to make the Tempest suck. Sig must be under 24000 bytes - Cathath ([email protected])
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.30 10:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Suzuko arty this, arty that... You're not, I hope, suggesting arties for PvP? In anything out of a fleet battle, it's ACs you want to be using because, well, you don't need/want snipers in small gang combat, and if you did, it sure as hell wouldn't be a damn tempest Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tomsudy Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.05.30 10:34:00 - [13] well tbh i think that minnie bs are fine i use them all the time but if u guys are determined to prove that they suck it wouldnt be awful to make them briliant, keep whining people on this forum usually get what they want
Wideen Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.30 11:16:00 - [14] I think the mael is the least reasonable minnie bs to fly into pvp, generally. I like solo/smaller skirmishes kind of fighting, which the phoon and pest do a lot better. And yeah why does the pest suck all of a sudden? I think it's great! The two utility high slots allow for two heavy neuts which is pwn.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.30 11:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Ruciza The "consensus" is that the Tempest now sucks because NOS and ECM was nerfed some centuries ago. See the connection? Me neither. So you must suck even more than the tempest. Tempest have a weirdo slot layout that sacrifices your tank to be get a free extra mid slot. Since EWar is nearly useless outside dedicated ewar ships (trend started with revelations 1). This last mid slots is almost useless. The 2 high slots also were used with NOS, that increased the tempest capability of breaking tanks while feedign its dual rep tank. So it coudl keep a not so pathetic tank and still break tanks. NO you cannot fit plates in a tempest, its idiotic. because tempest asset over a megathron or other battleships is its speed! If you throw it away and allow to get caught in web range you dead. And with 6 low slots you cannto fit a decent HP tank while getting any dps > paper bag. Also the advent of overheat screwed tempest capability of controlling range. Because if you are in tempest adn in middle of a MWD burst, your enemy overheat and trigger its own MWD. You cannot overheat for 5-6 more seconds. That means he will catch ya, regartheless of tempest being made to be faster. Simply all these major changes @#!#!@#&21 the tempest completely. Now you are stuck with a sub par tank, sub par dps and slight but not important speed advantage (because of overheat). ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.30 11:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Chackle Originally by: Ruciza The "consensus" is that the Tempest now sucks because NOS and ECM was nerfed some centuries ago. See the connection? Me neither. Yeah I can't see whats changed to make the Tempest suck. I'm not a minmatar pilot, but my understanding is that the hitpoint boost a year or so ago crippled the alpha-strike technique on which the tempest relied so heavily. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
d'hofren	Posted - 2008.05.30 11:49:00 - [17] Edited by: d''hofren on 30/05/2008 11:52:10 Originally by: Wideen I think the mael is the least reasonable minnie bs to fly into pvp, generally. I like solo/smaller skirmishes kind of fighting, which the phoon and pest do a lot better. And yeah why does the pest suck all of a sudden? I think it's great! The two utility high slots allow for two heavy neuts which is pwn. It's that it used to be better really. 1) You used to be able to fit a single ecm in mids along with a tank. The occasional ECM "hit" made up for the fact you tank was almost sub-par compared to most other BS. Ecm nerf means that the single ecm on a non bonused ship is rathr rubbish now. 2) Overloading - AC's require you to fight in falloff, (against blaster ships that is). Blaster ships overloading webs and mwd means that now days it is ruddy hard to use your pest agility and speed to, (cough), to dictate the range of the fight. 3) Neuts - This seasons new black is passive tanks and hit point buffers. Neuts and Nos used to rock on the pest as you could cripple your opponents active tank. Neuts / Nos on a HP buffer or passive tank don't give the same effect. That brings us down to speed, which the well skilled phoon does better, tank which the phoon and mael both do better and dps which again, the phoon and meal both do better. Even the venerable snipe pest is outclassed, (IIRC), by the arty mael unless you have BS 5. I am afraid the pest has been a ship without a niche for a year or so now. I haven't flown one in a long time.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.30 11:54:00 - [18] Tempest can be repaired without major changes. if CCP makes overheat be usable at any moment in a module cycle Give it a bit more fittings so it can use the last 2 high slots with siege launchers (without needing PG rigs and implants and using tier 1 guns all at same time). Give it a bit more agility so it can explore better its speed advantage. Give it more drone bay (125m) so it can supplement its dps or use web drones to supplement the range control) OR the option that we need to rpesent so CCP discards it imediately and have mroe chance of implementign one of the previous: Give it 1 more turret. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
mama guru Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.30 12:00:00 - [19] Originally by: Suzuko Tempest: The alpha from a properly fit arty Tempest can cripple most Cruisers in 1-2 volleys, and while it's sniping capabilities are not as well-known or effective as ships like the Rohk or Megathron, it can get the job done. This makes it awesome in the right PvP situation - not so great in missions where you need sustained DPS / tanking. Maelstrom: Effective in both missioning and pvp. While you're pretty much restricted to the Shield Tank / Arty setup with this ship, it does a damn good job of it. Functions as a good all-around BS in PvP, but it's Arties have a hard time hitting anything smaller than a BC that isn't webbed. In PvE, as stated, it's much less skill-intensive than stuff like the Phoon, and despite it's higher cost, it's probably the better missioning Min BS for younger characters. The PHEWN: Possibly the best first-tier BS in EvE just because of how many different kinds of fits you can put on it and it still be effective. Nos / Neut fit, Arty / Cruise, Super Tanker, even Torp / AC fits, and more. All the while the massive drone bay means it can bring 5 heavies to the party and still have room left for a rack of medium ECMs or Warrior IIs. Whether you're missioning or murdering, the Phoon can do it all, provided you have the skills to back it up. these days the apoc is the king of sniping, tied with the rokh. The apoc has alot better DPS and slightly better tracking then even a maxed out megathron pilot. with an MWD its almost as cap efficient as the megathron aswell, unless the mega fits cap power relays. EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Reatu Krentor Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2008.05.30 13:44:00 - [20] Originally by: d'hofren That brings us down to speed, which the well skilled phoon does better, tank which the phoon and mael both do better and dps which again, the phoon and meal both do better. Even the venerable snipe pest is outclassed, (IIRC), by the arty mael unless you have BS 5. With bs lvl 5 a Maelstrom has dps equal to 10.667 unbonused turrets and an volley strike equal to 8 turrets, a tempest has dps equal to 10 unbonused turrets and a volley strike of 7.5 turrets. so damage wise a sniper pest is allways outgunned by the Maelstrom(heck an apoc with 1400's has a better volley strike then a Tempest), but the tempest has 2 highslots it could use for interesting gear such as neutralizers or remote repairers. -- stuff --

JonnyKay Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.30 13:48:00 - [21] thanks for all the replies. some good points as to why the tempest isnt what it used to be. Although I dont know why people only think the tempest is an arty platform though, does no-one think it's a decent AC boat at all? As people said nos/neuts aren't everything nowdays, so the extra 2 high slots could be used to add more dps with torps or cruise missiles. ______________ Hell's Bells commin to get j00!!
Reatu Krentor Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2008.05.30 13:54:00 - [22] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 30/05/2008 14:00:30 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Tempest can be repaired without major changes. if CCP makes overheat be usable at any moment in a module cycle Give it a bit more fittings so it can use the last 2 high slots with siege launchers (without needing PG rigs and implants and using tier 1 guns all at same time). Give it a bit more agility so it can explore better its speed advantage. Give it more drone bay (125m) so it can supplement its dps or use web drones to supplement the range control) OR the option that we need to rpesent so CCP discards it imediately and have mroe chance of implementign one of the previous: Give it 1 more turret. The last 2 suggestions are just a veiled attempt to turn it into a megathron. My own take on a Pest change: -1 highslot, -1 turret, change fitting accordingly, +1 midslot, change the projectile damage bonus to 10% per level. You get a pest with 6 mids and 6 lows, dps output potential remains the same. Increased versatility with increased skillpoint treshold(supposedly a trademark of minmatar). Originally by: JonnyKay thanks for all the replies. some good points as to why the tempest isnt what it used to be. Although I dont know why people only think the tempest is an arty platform though, does no-one think it's a decent AC boat at all? As people said nos/neuts aren't everything nowdays, so the extra 2 high slots could be used to add more dps with torps or cruise missiles. Maelstrom is superior as AC boat, it has lots of grid available for 800mm while still using projectile rigs(aka falloff rigs), while fitted to gank and tank on shield, of course it won't be tackling itself but as dps support it's very powerfull. Tempest lacks effective HP to pull off a buffer tank as strong as others, it lacks slots to get good resists or good gank combined with armor tank. Though you have 2 launchers available, the added dps from them amounts to what is essentially 2 heavy drones iirc but only against fellow bs, assuming you even have the grid available to do so. What I haven't had a chance to try myself is a RR tempest gang, with 2 remote reps each it might have potential. -- stuff --
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.05.30 13:55:00 - [23] Originally by: JonnyKay thanks for all the replies. some good points as to why the tempest isnt what it used to be. Although I dont know why people only think the tempest is an arty platform though, does no-one think it's a decent AC boat at all? As people said nos/neuts aren't everything nowdays, so the extra 2 high slots could be used to add more dps with torps or cruise missiles. It's outdamaged, outtanked, and even has similar agility to the other battleships. It's close range looks okay in theory (Neuts + ACs + buffer), but fails in numbers and actuality. Those "utility" midslots are now becoming worthless with every patch. A tempest with ACs, 2 Nos, and 2 multispecs used to be something to fear. Now it's a comedy KM in the making. Anyway, I stick by my statement that it's completely worthless compared to both other minmatar battleships, which ps., aren't anywhere near the top of the list.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.05.30 14:13:00 - [24] So many possible ways of fixing the tempest..it's obscene. They can push it into a more tanky role by taking a mid for a low, a more ganky one by granting a larger dronebay or giving it a turret, or more versatility by sacrificing a high for a mid. I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
JonnyKay Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.30 14:16:00 - [25] ok, i think ill stick to the Typhoon + Maelstrom for now :P thanks ______________ Hell's Bells commin to get j00!!
Ecky X Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.05.30 14:41:00 - [26] Yes, best to end the thread before it gets out of hand.
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.05.30 14:41:00 - [27] Edited by: Vanessa Vale on 30/05/2008 14:42:41 The tempest is in a prefectly fine state. It's covered in blankets in the hangar so it doesn't overrust, and as good as new. Low mileage, you'll notice the thick layer of dust settling over the blanket already. I'm not sure about the maelstrom. I'm never sure if I'm flying it or if I'm still docked and manning some station turret. Minmatar Boost Brigade
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.30 14:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Vanessa Vale I'm not sure about the maelstrom. I'm never sure if I'm flying it or if I'm still docked and manning some station turret. It's a Caldari ship with autocannons. Not a bad one at that. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.30 15:56:00 - [29] Originally by: JonnyKay thanks for all the replies. some good points as to why the tempest isnt what it used to be. Although I dont know why people only think the tempest is an arty platform though, does no-one think it's a decent AC boat at all? As people said nos/neuts aren't everything nowdays, so the extra 2 high slots could be used to add more dps with torps or cruise missiles. 2 unbonused cruise launchers are almost useless. 2 siege woudl be OK. IF we could fit them without downgrading to dual 425 MM. Give tempest 600 more PG and 25 tf more CPU. then it can use its last slots for extra firepower to at least diminish its issues. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
d'hofren	Posted - 2008.05.30 16:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: d'hofren That brings us down to speed, which the well skilled phoon does better, tank which the phoon and mael both do better and dps which again, the phoon and meal both do better. Even the venerable snipe pest is outclassed, (IIRC), by the arty mael unless you have BS 5. With bs lvl 5 a Maelstrom has dps equal to 10.667 unbonused turrets and an volley strike equal to 8 turrets, a tempest has dps equal to 10 unbonused turrets and a volley strike of 7.5 turrets. so damage wise a sniper pest is allways outgunned by the Maelstrom(heck an apoc with 1400's has a better volley strike then a Tempest), but the tempest has 2 highslots it could use for interesting gear such as neutralizers or remote repairers. Nicely explained, tip hat Re The Mael : It always strikes me how useless an active tank bonus is on a ship that is an arty platform and so most at home in a laggy high burst damage fleet fight.



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