| Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
   |
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:44:00 -
[1]
i was sitting here wondering, thinking about scamming and the whole concept around it in eve.
so why is it allowed in eve?.
well i got to a pretty good conclusion but then i stumbled upon something that destroyes ANY and all argument to why scamming is allowed in eve.
 Originally by: CCP kieron
17. Scamming ETCÆs and character sales are not allowed, please petition if you suspect you have been scammed. When buying and selling characters, please note that by confirming the trade via EVEmail, you ensure that the facts of the matter are documented, should any later disputes arise that require GM attention.
well i can understand that scamming is bad and when RL money is involved it can become a offence against rl law, but the service they are provided as they are will have no such backfire, since it just provide the the transfer, nothing more then that, and as such is not responsibel for any scam and cannot be hold responsible according to rl law for any scams that might happen.
so why isn't it allowed to scam these when scamming is allowed in eve?
so here is what i am looking for:
i am looking for some kind of logical rule or law that would make it worse for ccp and/or it's costumer to get a 2mill sp char scammed of them, or that 1-2billions scammed from them for a char, then to get scammed for X.billions isk in any other ingame way?.
and the same with gtc's where we are only talking about a few hundred mills.
for all those that will say "it is because you lose RL money on it", well and you don't lose RL money by the subscription cost when you get scammed and lose gametime and grinding time?.
you lose the same both ways, so why is one allowed and the other is not when it is not illegal to allow both?
i don't see eve as a free sandbox the way it is run, i see it more like a sandbox where there are some teachers looking at the kids and randomly vobally attacking them for the stuff that the others do too but it is okey that they do it, but not for the other kid to do it..
you gotta choice, either one or the other. this "mix and match **** gotta go" :P
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Stakhanov
Metafarmers
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:48:00 -
[2]
Because we revel in your angst.
|
Adonis 4174
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:49:00 -
[3]
Scamming is not allowed when there is no defence. Ingame there is always a defence.
----
Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag |
Andre Ricard
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:51:00 -
[4]
The simple answer is that it isn't CCP's place to regulate what people do with their Internet Spacebucks. If you want to 'invest' in someone, you assume the risk. The risk and figuring out how far you can trust someone is one of the things that makes EVE interesting. ETC and character sale scams aren't allowed since they involve real money at some point in the equation and CCP doesn't want people getting discouraged with scams that potentially involve actual, real money.
I'm a little surprised you're complaining, too; subterfuge and trickery should be second nature to any CotS fan. 
-----
Character back under original management. |
Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:52:00 -
[5]
Only thing I can really think of on that is that they want GTC trades and character transfers to provide strong competition to RMT for ISK, characters and ingame items both via the usual channels and ebay.
Obviously, that's not going to happen if 70% or better of "sanctioned" GTC or character trades for ISK turn out to be scams.
___________________________________________
|
Misanth
Electro Fuels
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 14:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Misanth on 01/06/2008 14:58:58
You lose money all the time when playing EVE. One day this game don't exist anymore and all the subscription money has been for nothing. You lose money when you go to the movies, or to the restaurant, or when taking a trip in the local rollercoaster, etc etc.. your arguments are flawed.
The difference is quite obvious, you just either want to troll, or just disagree and thus you don't want to see things with an open mind. I'll try help you:
GTC is paid for by real life money. If you "scam" someone off that, you are stealing, and thus you can be legally be prosecuted - at least in most countries I know. The police may care more or less depending on it, in Sweden it would be considered 'shoplifting' as the sum is fairly low and you'd get a fine for doing it. But yah, it's against the law.
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want. They can "scam" your items. The idea of allowing ingame scam is related to EVE as a whole. Piracy is a theft, scam is a theft, but both are related to CCPs 'intellectual property'. EVE also lets you shoot down peoples 'property', the game lets you 'kill' their capsules, at least one of the factions want to keep slaves, etc.
It's a huge difference between ingame scams and real life scams.
And at the end of the day, if the GM's would say scams are disallowed (you know, most mmo's are allowing it), imagine the workload it would be for the GM's to check for logs for every single scam that happened.. I used to be GM in a(nother) mmo, we didn't like scams but we didn't take actions against them and considered it a "trust issue between players" (if you lend stuff to others, don't expect it back). That was purely based on the workload it would give us to check logs etc etc. We would have to double our staff just to sort out issues like that, not very appealing. In the regard of GTC's, it's alot easier to sort that out.
|
NightF0x
Chicken Coup Raiders
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: NightF0x on 01/06/2008 15:10:27
Like it was mentioned before, you have no way to defend yourself if someone scams you on a character sale. There is no way to verify the information that is given, such as negative sec status, actual wallet balance...etc. Your argument about grinding time and time spent on subscription don't hold water. There are in-game ways to prevent being scammed. Money spent on subscription and grinding are an entertainment value. You aren't wasting your time and money, you are receiving what you paid for. When a character scam happens, you don't get what you paid for and even more you paid real money for it, which can be considered fraud in some countries. So there are real consequences for scamming out of game transfers, such as characters.
------------------------------------
|
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:41:00 -
[8]
Scamming is allowed ingame.
Character transfers and G/ETC sales are not exclusively ingame acivities, and thus are not allowed.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
shady trader
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:43:00 -
[9]
ISK offically has zero real world value. Where Character and GTC sales do have a real world value (ú10 for Charater transfer). CCP can make that ever rules they want in the virtual world so they can say scamming is legal. However outside of the eve universe CCP do not make the laws, as such its still a crime to steal or aquire money or good by deception.
hence scamming in game for virtual cash =legal PVP scamming out of game is a crime hence not allowed.
Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congrated by carebears for the actions. |
Smantha Dering
Syntek Technology
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:46:00 -
[10]
In game, out of game. Also, if people started to scam character sales, ccp would lose the $20 transfer fees since nobody would trust character sales. Same with GTC sales.
|
Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 15:56:00 -
[11]
Asking why it's allowed to scam people in the game, within the game rules and game mechanics, when it isn't allowed to scam them out of game, is almost like asking why its allowed to kill people in Eve when it isn't allowed in real life.
|
Tom Tomahawk
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
|
Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:08:00 -
[13]
I don't like in game scamming....
However....
In order for Eve to be the ruthless game that it is, players MUST be able free to act ruthlessly.
While I would like to see high sec space a bit safer from suicide attack, I would not change scamming rules (or the lack of them) at all (low sec and 0.0 are just fine....)
Play nice while you butcher each other.
|
Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.
|
Tom Tomahawk
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.
That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.
|
Vagablonde
Ouruboros Trading
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:19:00 -
[16]
no it matches with the eve online principle.
________________
the way back home is always long, but if you're close to me i'm holding on. |
DHU InMe
JUSTICE Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:43:00 -
[17]
You can also scam in other sandbox mmo...
I agree there not a lot of sandbox mmo, but still, you don't want eve to become "stupid proof" don't you ?
Look out for immature people that do anything and it alway work without no strategy, tactic, teamplay or what ever that make eve that is IT.
There alreay lot of barrier to protect people. If you want to help out, suggest WAY to improve protection AGAINST SCAMMING, not critic the fact that you can scam (unless you want a static economy that everything got the same price).
Overhaul //todo remake
EvE Links //todo remake
RTFPN HELP |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 16:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.
Good job this isn't some international treaty then, isn't it?
CCP have the right to decide who they will provide their service to, and you agreed to that stipulation.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Ilvan
Post with your Brain
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.
That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.
When you agree to the terms of use, you agree that CCP can terminate your account for any (or no) reason at any time.
It's a pretty standard thing in subscription-based games.
_______________________________
In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only lag |
ZERG RUSHKEKE
Royal Enterprise
Infinite Innovation
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 17:23:00 -
[20]
If you are stupid enough to fall for a scam then its your fault. There is always a defense agaisnt these things.
----------------
"O Maker, help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded." |
Tom Tomahawk
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 18:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.
Good job this isn't some international treaty then, isn't it?
CCP have the right to decide who they will provide their service to, and you agreed to that stipulation.
This is correct BEFORE the contract is made, but once it is signed by both parties, they may not arbitrarely deny service. They may ban you if you for example commit a violation against the EULA and rules you agreed upon by signing the contract, or they may refuse to extend the contract, but they can't deny access without reason. If they do, it's a breach of contract and you can sue them.
|
Captain Bringdown
Rage Against the Answering Machine
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 18:50:00 -
[22]
Show me CCP's signature on any contract and you have a case 
|
Armoured C
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 18:52:00 -
[23]
if people like to fall for the
"let me check you navy raven setting by trading it to me to join our corp-no wait your fitting arn't good im going to keep it"
scams then it there own Darwinism fault i say
|
Misanth
Electro Fuels
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 19:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.
That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.
Read the EULA. As for legal issues, remember this game is based in Iceland and we follow that law. I studied law in the country I live in (Sweden), but the knowledge I have from legal issues here doesn't relate to what's in EVE.
|
Tom Tomahawk
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 19:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
Actually, they can. You agreed to those terms when you signed up for the game. Everything in the game ultimately belongs fully to CCP.
That's not the point i was talking about. Read the bold text, it does not match with the PACTA SUNT SERVANDA principle.
Read the EULA. As for legal issues, remember this game is based in Iceland and we follow that law. I studied law in the country I live in (Sweden), but the knowledge I have from legal issues here doesn't relate to what's in EVE.
The basic principle that contracts are binding can be found in any legal system, it's thousands of years old, without it our modern society couldn't function.
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.
|
Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
The ultimate fudge factor lies in the wording of 6.ii.(iv): Originally by: "EULA"
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: […] CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
The whole "in CCP's discretion" part allows for quite a bit of leeway, but isn't likely to be used unless they want to mass-murder their customer relationship.
|
ZW Dewitt
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:14:00 -
[27]
There is no in-game scamming... only poor decisions.
|
Armoured C
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: ZW Dewitt
There is no in-game scamming... only poor decisions.
/signed
|
Merdaneth
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:40:00 -
[29]
It allowed in game for the same reason its allowed in Monopoly, or Risk, or any other game. If you fool another player and reap the profits, there is no out-of-game form of redress.
ETC etc. are out-of-game transactions. Hence scamming is forbidden.
If you someone promises that you don't have to pay the rent for a hotel on Broadway in Monopoly, but he doesn't keep his word, there is nothing you can do. If somebody agrees with you to sell you his monopoly game, and you give him real money, but he keeps the game, you could take legal action.
Clear enough for you?
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Zaqar
Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:43:00 -
[30]
It's a game, there has to be some way to lose :P
|
JafoPBCFR
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 20:51:00 -
[31]
Simple version of it is. GTC CHAR scams involve Credit card/ DBT fraud.
ingame scams isk to game item etc etc. Dont involve RL fraud. And Internationl banking laws.
|
Wu Jiun
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:07:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.
I seriously doubt you have ever graduated. Because such an achievement would probably stop you from running around like a 12-yr old and trying to intimidate people with your vast knowledge (lol) of the law. Seriously, get over yourself.
|
Tom Tomahawk
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
The ultimate fudge factor lies in the wording of 6.ii.(iv): Originally by: "EULA"
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: [à] CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
The whole "in CCP's discretion" part allows for quite a bit of leeway, but isn't likely to be used unless they want to mass-murder their customer relationship.
Nice try, but read exactly what i wrote above. If there is a breach of the EULA, you might get a ban, i never questioned that. You should provide the headline of the quoted section aswell:
6. TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT
A. By CCP for Termination of the Game
...
B. By CCP for Breach or Misconduct
What people claim in this thread is that CCP may arbitrarily ban you whenever they want to, just because it's their game - not understanding that CCP has the obligation to fulfill their part of the signed contract, as long as the other party is fulfilling their part.
There is nothing in the EULA that allows CCP to "...ban you for whatever reason they want". And i knew it before reading the EULA because such a stipulation would fundamentally oppose the principles of contract law, and doesn't exist for a good reason.
|
Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:24:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
What people claim in this thread is that CCP may arbitrarily ban you whenever they want to, just because it's their game - not understanding that CCP has the obligation to fulfill their part of the signed contract, as long as the other party is fulfilling their part.
There is nothing in the EULA that allows CCP to "...ban you for whatever reason they want". And i knew it before reading the EULA because such a stipulation would fundamentally oppose the principles of contract law, and doesn't exist for a good reason.
…and if you took your time to read the section quoted, it says exactly that: CCP reserves the right to determine what counts as misconduct, and can choose to terminate your account based on that. Again (this time highlighted and cut down to point): Quote:
CCP may close all your Accounts if CCP becomes aware of player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
Oh, and I didn't include the headlines because I assumed the reader would be clever enough to figure those out by himself.
Granted, CCP cannot "arbitrarily ban you just because it's their game" – you're absolutely right there. However, they can rather arbitrarily determine what counts as misconduct, and ban you for that.
|
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:25:00 -
[35]
From the TOS (which forms part of the eula)
Quote:
#
# CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userÆs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
# We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
If you didn't *want* to sign up to those conditions of use, you can just cancel and walk away.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Helen
coracao ardente
Cruel Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 21:57:00 -
[36]
ITT Internet lawyerz
|
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 22:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.
I seriously doubt you have ever graduated. Because such an achievement would probably stop you from running around like a 12-yr old and trying to intimidate people with your vast knowledge (lol) of the law. Seriously, get over yourself.
Have you ever actually met a lawyer? Intimidating people with their knowledge of the law is pretty much their defining characteristic.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Tom Tomahawk
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 22:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Avon
From the TOS (which forms part of the eula)
Quote:
#
# CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userÆs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
# We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
If you didn't *want* to sign up to those conditions of use, you can just cancel and walk away.
This is a very surprising regulation. You have a contract between two parties and one party reserves the right to step back from the contract without compensation - you don't see that often. And in some legal systems such a stipulation is void because it is unusual and surprising.
But whether this stipulation is void in this particular contract is something i can't say for sure, i'm not a lawyer (but at least its VERY fragile).
And my argumentation in prior posts in this thread was based on the fact that such a stipulation does not exist.
So yes, i admit, you got me there.
|
Armoured C
Globaltech Industries
The ENTITY.
|
Posted - 2008.06.01 23:04:00 -
[39]
what ever happens CCP owns your souls now and your first born must be names after a ship 
|
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 00:12:00 -
[40]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/06/2008 00:14:58
well what people mainly forget is that charecter transfer is NOT buying a charecter, it is just a SERVICE of moving one charecter CHOSEN by a person which chose a ingame item for another ingame item.
you pay for the SERVICE only. nothing else, and if the person transfer another charecter too you or he doesn't transfer the isk to you, then ONLY ingame items have been scammed with.
the rl money have NOT been touched since you have been provided with the service that you payid for in real cash, (which is STILL just a transfer, and if you payid you get a transfer, nothing else).
so there is NO illegality in charecter scamming according to law.
so anything with "it is because of rl scamming is illegal because it involves rl money" is bs, since it have nothing to do with scamming money, you get the service you paid for in cash, if you get something ingame or not has nothing to do with what you payid for.
the same gtc.
the person giving rl cash GETS what he payid for and gets the GTC, if he then scams some one for ingame isk it have NOTHING to do with the RL cash, since you do not PAY him rl cash to get playtime, no you give him isk.
for those people saying "there is no way of defending against it and that is why"...
are you really that naiv?? i means seriously hehe..
there is as many ways and even MORE ways to defend yourself against char and especially gtc scammers as there are of defending yourself against ingame scammers, so wake up.
well untill now i have seen NOTHING that gives a reason why there is a difference in the moral or legally views on this.
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Mika Meroko
Crayon Posting Inc
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 00:31:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Mika Meroko on 02/06/2008 00:36:52
very simple:
GTC and character scams involves RL money, credit card fraud, paypal not happy etc..
stuff that can LAND YOU IN JAIL IN RL...
you know, a place where you becomes a prison *****.
CCP doesnt want to deal with courts (many complications, especially different countries have different laws...) when the scammed sues the scammer in RL which the courts will bug CCP to provide information...
hence the EULA... and CCP's stance on no scamming on things that involves RL money...
yes, scamming GTCs, character trades, etc is akin to credit card fraud and other stuff that can land you in jail...
while misrepresentation of item in game scam for money in game well.. doesnt involve any country's legal currency... (technically, RMT is a different issue, and CCP's offical stance is no RMT in game....)
Remember,
There IS a line between reality and the sandbox that we live in..(god I need a life...)
if crime crosses that line.. then prepare for RL trouble.... =P
and hope you got vasaline =P
as for above:
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 02/06/2008 00:14:58
well what people mainly forget is that charecter transfer is NOT buying a charecter, it is just a SERVICE of moving one charecter CHOSEN by a person which chose a ingame item for another ingame item.
True.. but at the same time, CCP can get into trouble if they let it happen... how do you feel if you brought a ferrai and got a plastic shell of one by your dealer?
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
you pay for the SERVICE only. nothing else, and if the person transfer another charecter too you or he doesn't transfer the isk to you, then ONLY ingame items have been scammed with.
the rl money have NOT been touched since you have been provided with the service that you payid for in real cash, (which is STILL just a transfer, and if you payid you get a transfer, nothing else).
so there is NO illegality in charecter scamming according to law.
I wouldnt be so sure about that...IE: Ebay: I had something listed for sale, you paid for it, you get something different... I can get into big trouble depending on which country I am in...
yeah.... nuff said...and Ebay wont like that too .
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
so anything with "it is because of rl scamming is illegal because it involves rl money" is bs, since it have nothing to do with scamming money, you get the service you paid for in cash, if you get something ingame or not has nothing to do with what you payid for.
the same gtc.
the person giving rl cash GETS what he payid for and gets the GTC, if he then scams some one for ingame isk it have NOTHING to do with the RL cash, since you do not PAY him rl cash to get playtime, no you give him isk.
for those people saying "there is no way of defending against it and that is why"...
are you really that naiv?? i means seriously hehe..
there is as many ways and even MORE ways to defend yourself against char and especially gtc scammers as there are of defending yourself against ingame scammers, so wake up.
well untill now i have seen NOTHING that gives a reason why there is a difference in the moral or legally views on this.
Algebra... GTC = money.... think Algebra.
and yes.. there are ways... Secure Trade.
There is no moral blah blah.. just a trail of very annoying paper work for CCP if they lew it happen with stuff resembling RMT
|
Sniper Wolf18
Apocalypse Ponies
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 01:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
i don't see eve as a free sandbox the way it is run, i see it more like a sandbox where there are some teachers looking at the kids and randomly vobally attacking them for the stuff that the others do too but it is okey that they do it, but not for the other kid to do it..
i see eve as a sandbox with no teachers.
Though if you started picking up things with your mind, flying around and using mind control on other people in the "sandbox" an intelligence agency will probably want to know how and why you can do this and how best to stop you.
PS: im very ****in tired, so if this dosent make sense, kick me in the balls!
|
Wu Jiun
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 01:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Malcanis
Have you ever actually met a lawyer? Intimidating people with their knowledge of the law is pretty much their defining characteristic.
Only if your understanding of a lawyer is based on popular tv-productions.
|
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 01:54:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
And my argumentation in prior posts in this thread was based on the fact that such a stipulation does not exist.
So yes, i admit, you got me there.
Other than second life the game makers hold those rights so that they can delete and/or remove items/chars as they see fit.
Originally by: Radcjk
PvP in eve can be sort of rough. It's closer to bad sex. Usually an hour of two of foreplay followed by 5 minutes of disappointment. And the surprise at the end.
|
ShardowRhino
Legion 0f The Damned
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 02:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
i was sitting here wondering, thinking about scamming and the whole concept around it in eve.
so why is it allowed in eve?.
well i got to a pretty good conclusion but then i stumbled upon something that destroyes ANY and all argument to why scamming is allowed in eve.
Originally by: CCP kieron
17. Scamming ETCÆs and character sales are not allowed, please petition if you suspect you have been scammed. When buying and selling characters, please note that by confirming the trade via EVEmail, you ensure that the facts of the matter are documented, should any later disputes arise that require GM attention.
P
There is no reason for CCP to choose that they must allow ETC or account theft if they allow in game scams.
ETC= money . Accounts = money. ETCs were purchased therefore scamming will eventually result in no one buying them which means less income for CCP. People losing their accounts means people wont be paying for them. Also account theft can lead to identity theft due to billing information being filed with the account. That could bite CCP in the butt since some lawyer will hammer things out so that CCP was aiding the identity theives by having no policy against account theft that led to the identity theft. Even if the lawsuit fails CCP still needs to hire a defense lawyer which results in lost RL $$$.
Now if someone scams another player into buying the "holy tritanium" that costs 100mil due to its supposed magical properties, thats on the player that bought it. RL money was not traded, CCp was not put in a position to lose RL money and no RL theft was commited. A fool will soon be parted with his in game money. If you buy a "caldari navy Raven" that looks just like an ibis, well your to stupid to have gotten that much isk you were scammed out of,so all is made right in the world by such actions.
Remember that in game goods,e-goods have absolutely no monetary value. In order to ever play eve you have to agree to such terms. Regardless of how long it takes you to make the isk to buy the item or how much time you spent mining veldspar to produce it, that item doesnt truly exist and you also agreed that it has no RL value. Isk has no RL value if you play eve since you also agreed that there is no RL monetary equivalent, meaning if you got scammed its your loss of agreed nothingness.
Now if CCP allowed for people to scam ETC and accounts which are both paid for with RL monies then CCP leaves themselves open to RL courts and RL cases. RL lawyers will be asking CCP to pay RL damages in RL money. Anyone that has a slight idea on how bussiness works (virtually none play eve) they would realize that losing RL money constantly because they don't put in place a few simple rules is foolish. Why bother running and building eve if your determined to lose what RL money you generate? its a game but its a business.
|
Taedrin
Royal Hiigaran Navy
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 03:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Avon
From the TOS (which forms part of the eula)
Quote:
#
# CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any userÆs account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
# We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
If you didn't *want* to sign up to those conditions of use, you can just cancel and walk away.
This is a very surprising regulation. You have a contract between two parties and one party reserves the right to step back from the contract without compensation - you don't see that often. And in some legal systems such a stipulation is void because it is unusual and surprising.
But whether this stipulation is void in this particular contract is something i can't say for sure, i'm not a lawyer (but at least its VERY fragile).
And my argumentation in prior posts in this thread was based on the fact that such a stipulation does not exist.
So yes, i admit, you got me there.
Such stipulations are actually pretty common amongst MMOGs.
World of Warcraft -
Quote:
BlizzardÆs Absolute Right to Suspend, Terminate and/or Delete the Account.
BLIZZARD MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE THE ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME WITH ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most account suspensions, terminations and/or deletions are the result of violations of this Terms of Use or the EULA.
Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but I would believe that a game as widespread as WoW, this would be challenged if it didn't hold any legal weight.
|
masternerdguy
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 03:24:00 -
[47]
because ccp does not deal with in game crime to force you to take and evaluate economic risks.
|
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 05:19:00 -
[48]
Easy answer, it takes a load off of the GMs.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Zey Nadar
Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem
Einherjar Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 05:37:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Asking why it's allowed to scam people in the game, within the game rules and game mechanics, when it isn't allowed to scam them out of game, is almost like asking why its allowed to kill people in Eve when it isn't allowed in real life.
This is kind of stupid thing to say. That scamming is allowed ingame is ultimately CCP's decision and nothing else. Most obviously to keep their moderators from becoming overworked, in addition to any nice philosophical ideas about players ingame freedom.
|
Jason Edwards
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 05:41:00 -
[50]
ERRMMM
12.7 What is a scam?
A scam is the act of obtaining goods from other players through misinformation, confusion, pressure or by taking advantage of basic trust. Players enter into business dealings with others at their own risk and are strongly urged to exercise good judgement and common sense when trading. Scams that relate to issues such as password scams or account theft scams are more serious and will result in an immediate ban.
Game masters may intercede if a player illegally obtained items from another through use of an exploit. However, if a scam is reported and investigation shows that exploiting was not involved, depending on the circumstances and the severity of the scam, we may choose not to intervene.
12.8 How can I spot a scam?
While we make every effort to create a fun and safe environment for our players, there will be times when someone devises a way to take advantage of his fellow gamers. Knowledge and caution are paramount to avoid falling prey to a scammer.
We will make every effort to educate our community on ways to spot common scams and avoid them. However, the ultimate responsibility for being a smart player lies with the individual. Those conducting scams will be warned, suspended or permanently banned, depending on the severity of the scam as determined by our investigation.
If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is. "Buyer beware" should be the credo of all players doing business with casual acquaintances or complete strangers in the game.
The point is that someone who were to run an IPO but then run with the money. Such that he used "A scam is the act of obtaining goods from other players through misinformation, confusion, pressure or by taking advantage of basic trust."
The problem is that you have to prove that person misinformed and took advantage of trust.
------------------------
"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 06:08:00 -
[51]
It's pretty darn simple.
INGAME scamming, made possible by INGAME means, zero theoretical (if not practical) real-life cash value = ok
Scamming anything that involves OOG real-life cash transactions (GTC sales, character transfers) = not ok
I see absolutely no problem.
1|2|3|4|5 |
Rhak Amharr
Metafarmers
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 08:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Armoured C
what ever happens CCP owns your souls now and your first born must be names after a ship
I'll call mine Moa and skill it up to scam GTCs.
|
Misanth
Electro Fuels
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:04:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
The basic principle that contracts are binding can be found in any legal system, it's thousands of years old, without it our modern society couldn't function.
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.
Tippia already answered the question for you, but I'm just quoting it. I have a feeling you're one of those that'd harrass people to respond if they didn't, and try to spin whatever facts they provide into whatever you want it to be. :P
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Read the EULA yourself and show me that part which allowes CCP arbitrarely deny to fulfill their part of the contract whenever they want.
The ultimate fudge factor lies in the wording of 6.ii.(iv): Originally by: "EULA"
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: [à] CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct.
The whole "in CCP's discretion" part allows for quite a bit of leeway, but isn't likely to be used unless they want to mass-murder their customer relationship.
That's generally what most MMO's have. I used to be GM in a fairly small MMO, at our peak period we had 10-15k subscribers. We had the same lines in our EULA as quoted above, and if you check World of Warcraft, Everquest, Lineage, etc etc, I bet you'll find it in every game. During my 4-5 years as GM I don't know of a single case where we used this rule to kick a player out of the game, but we had it in the EULA as a security.
There's rare cases of players harrassing others but not really violating any general 'rules', like being a racist, using game mechanics to grief, etc etc. Some players are just simply, a 'bully', and I can think of situations where one jerk easily can ruin the game for thousands of players.
This rule is also for protection for CCP. There might be situations where they ban a player for doing something bad, but they can't really prove it, so they can always rely on this line in the EULA. One thing you often hear as GM is that players blame their "4 year old sister" their "mum" or "my drunk friend", etc. Sometimes they claim stupid things like "my friend and I got ****ed at eachother, so he logged in and did it" (account sharing now allowed, ip checks, mmkay, not very bright comment). Anyway, back on track; In these cases, instead of trying to prove the player is 'wrong', you can just kick him out of the game and put the game resources on doing bug fixes and help a player that isn't causing problems.
Is that a good thing from an ethic/moral point of view? Can be debateable, but it certainly makes it better for the lionpart of the gamers. Is it a good thing legally? Personally I think not, you pay for a service but you can be treated like crap. But it does make sense to have it, at the end of the day it is there to provide a better service for the majority of the players, and good guys won't have issues with this, just those living in the greyzone.
|
Primnproper
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:31:00 -
[54]
Because scamming in game is 'in character' scamming and is totally in keeping with the feel and backstory of the game universe.
Whereas, scamming people for GTCs and characters is 'out of character' scamming and does not take place within the eve universe, therefore it is not in keeping with the feel and backstory of the setting because the setting is the real world. |
Zey Nadar
Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem
Einherjar Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:34:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 02/06/2008 09:34:35
However, personally I think that certain help from concord part would be useful to make certain ingame stuff possible, like banking. Since there is little actual risk from player side involved in not fulfilling your contracts ingame, these ideas wont get off the ground. This could maybe worth some discussion in some other thread.
edit: typos
|
Pan Crastus
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:38:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
I seriously doubt that you studied the law, since you question a very basic thing here, which a law student learns in his first lessons.
QFT, people who answer posts with "read the EULA" have usually no clue whatsoever about contract law, validity of EULA terms etc. ...
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
|
Pan Crastus
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 09:52:00 -
[57]
While it is ultimately CCP's decision whether they want to allow scamming ingame or not, there is a thin line between "successful scamming because the buyer is stupid" and "successful scamming because of game bugs / stupid UI". CCP have banned people several times when that line was crossed in their opinion, i.e. when people exploited bugs (like when BPCs were shown as BPOs on escrow).
Arguably, the UI is still very bad (it's not clear what the seller-provided title is and what the actual contents are), so it's not really 100% buyer stupidity that causes successful scams nowdays.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
|
Rutoo
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 11:47:00 -
[58]
A Good Scammer takes your isk/ships.
A better Scammer befriends you, then takes your isk/ships
The best scammers are the ones who's names you'll never know. Yet Manage to scam the same person over and over.
_________________________________________________________
My Second EvE Video
Club Seals Not Sandwichs
|
Randy Gandhi
Capital Produce
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 11:49:00 -
[59]
Because CCP are leet
|
Amastat
Omegatech
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 11:58:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Amastat on 02/06/2008 11:58:54
Scamming is allowed because the hearts of the original DEV's are made from black obsidian taken from the ashed remains of the lava that destroyed Pompeii - forged in the blood of the countless millions killed from thousands of years of war.
Their hearts are also embed with the essence of pain, fear, torment, all of the horrors that we knew and dread. They also make a human sacrifice and drink the blood of a WoW player who recently died from a potent overdose of set grinding in this ritual.
In other words - CCP is metal; metal to the point where most WoW players who try EVE end up going mad and their heads explode 
____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu |
Mark Galean
Ooops Inc.
Infinite Innovation
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:15:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Mark Galean on 02/06/2008 13:26:07
Originally by: Tom Tomahawk
Originally by: Misanth
Ingame items are CCPs property. We're just paying for a service to play this gae. CCP can just remove all your items and ban you for whatever reason they want.
No, they can't. You obviously don't understand the basics of contract law.
You really need to read the EULA again :
http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp
Especially section 6: TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT:
Quote:
ii. Termination of EULA
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if:
(i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due;
(ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide;
(iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or
(iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you.
CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account.Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section.
Go directly to jail, do not collect $200 if passing start. Wait untill account is unlocked to throw a dice again.
Edit: Emphasised the parts that show you that CCP can do whatever hoot they want with your account. You are paying for a SUBSCRIPTION that can be CANCELLED at ANY TIME for ANY REASON and ANY REASONABLE GROUND THEY SEE FIT. </rant>
|
Empress Norton
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:17:00 -
[62]
well I think the idea is , if you get scammed, well, EVE is harsh: sucked in - pay more attention next time
|
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:25:00 -
[63]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
for all those that will say "it is because you lose RL money on it", well and you don't lose RL money by the subscription cost when you get scammed and lose gametime and grinding time?.
No you don't lose RL money, in what way do you think you do? You pay to play the game, doesn't matter how you play it, or if you fall for some scam and lose your isk, isk which belongs to ccp anyway.
|
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 13:32:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Malcanis
Have you ever actually met a lawyer? Intimidating people with their knowledge of the law is pretty much their defining characteristic.
Only if your understanding of a lawyer is based on popular tv-productions.
Indeed, most lawyers couldn't intimidate a feildmouse.
|
Taint
Black Plague.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 16:04:00 -
[65]
some people just deserve to loose their isk or items, its your own dam foult if u get scammed.
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 17:17:00 -
[66]
OP (and several others) needs not to drink and think at the same time, its just plain embarassing that such stupidity actually gets written.
ETC and Characters are traded via CCP (otherwise its the ban hammer), they have a responsibility to make sure what you buy is what you get. You get scammed its their fault as they provide a trustworthy way for its customers to do each others favors by trading ISK or desired skilled characters.
As for how the game is run and how to play the game, the OP should try to understand that they are very different things, i'm think the best of him by saying he's drunk and my collie has more intelligence than he's displaying at present.
Oh!, yes CCP can ban you for wearing red socks on a tuesday if they wanted (just like a pub landlord in the UK can), its thier game, they decide who plays, your money allows you the right to connect only at thier pleasure not yours.
/rant
...... continues overleaf. |
Schani Kratnorr
x13
|
Posted - 2008.06.02 17:33:00 -
[67]
To the OP.
Your question is loaded. You equal scamming with fraud and breach of EULA.
In-game, in-character scams are totally a part of the game. If I can get someone to trust me enoug to place valuables in my hand, logic dictates that I have the choice to run off with it.
On the other hand, if I decide to break the EULA is have stepped across the magic line in the sand, and would be subject to sanctions from CCP.
Some people seem to think that stealing everything from a corporation is against the EULA. Unless I broke the EULA or the LAW doing so, there is nothing wrong and it's all part of the game.
Other, less worthwile games, may have policies that cater to a younger crowd, and as such may need rules to govern those cases that see customers looted of their valuables. In EVE however, you either learn from your mistakes or you succumb to the harsh realities - that anything not directly controlled by YOU is up for grabs.
Nothing in EVE is freely convertable to Real Life money, and as such it does not have any material value beyond the borders of the game world. Some people may think that a certain ship is "worth" X number of U.S.Dollah, but the EULA forbids ietm/isk trade outside sacntioned methods (secure gametime/char trade).
Fraud, scamming, theft and broken dreams are as much part of the game as Veldspar is. The sooner you get into the mindset of EVE the better off you will be.
|
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 07:26:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
OP (and several others) needs not to drink and think at the same time, its just plain embarassing that such stupidity actually gets written.
ETC and Characters are traded via CCP (otherwise its the ban hammer), they have a responsibility to make sure what you buy is what you get. You get scammed its their fault as they provide a trustworthy way for its customers to do each others favors by trading ISK or desired skilled characters.
/rant
first of "ditto"..
secondly:
so they don't provide the service for ingame trading, contracts etc. ? ow i didn't know.. so who does?
so your argument is as dead as a guy that just got hit by a 12-7 ^^
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 07:29:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
To the OP.
Your question is loaded. You equal scamming with fraud and breach of EULA.
In-game, in-character scams are totally a part of the game. If I can get someone to trust me enoug to place valuables in my hand, logic dictates that I have the choice to run off with it.
you don't seem to realize that it have nothing to do with rl fraud, since there is NO rl money involved in the scam.. you get the service you pay for, nothing more nothing less, so it cannot be a fraud or rl scam, only a isk scam of ingame items
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 07:40:00 -
[70]
to the OP:
the game is character based. therefore one character can scam another.
in game you cannot justify an account scaming another one! scaming is a choice of playing the game not using out of game resources.
try to think in mmoRPg terms!
for your characters the account does not exist!
selling characters: you do not sell 1 character into the control of another but to another account (¦the account as such does not exist in the game universe).
ETCs: CCP mixed out of game with in game here but the principle is the same, you withdraw money for something that does not exist in the game universe.
therefore the implemented control mechanisms that have been installed for all trades, contracts etc can not apply!
you can't be scamed in game if you pay attention!
you can be mislead by manipulated character sheets, ETCs etc out of game without there being a sa***uard but the sole decision of yes/no.
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
|
Pan Crastus
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 11:10:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Mark Galean
stuff...
Edit: Emphasised the parts that show you that CCP can do whatever hoot they want with your account.
You're the kind of person that EULAs with invalid clauses were originally invented for.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
|
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 11:59:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
You're the kind of person that EULAs with invalid clauses were originally invented for.
It doesn't really make much difference.
A judge isn't going to be able to force CCP to provide its service to someone it doesn't want to. At worst CCP would have to pay costs and the outstanding portion of the current subscription.
More likely, however, is that it would never get to trial.
CCP can restrict their service as they see fit. That part of the EULA is perfectly valid. Unless you could prove they were doing it in a dicriminatory manner then there would be no case to answer; just the same way as a shop can refuse to serve you, or a bus can refuse you as a passenger, or a bank can decline your request for a loan. It may not be great for customer service, but they are certainly entitled to do so.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Maximor
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 12:55:00 -
[73]
This is not the first time this subject has been broached, and it certainly won't be the last. For me, at least, part of the allure of Eve is that there is no "Ban Stick" safety net.
In every other MMO that I have played, there was always a set of rules that provided a safety net for the player base. In most games, the mechanics and rules didn't even allow for something like piracy to exist. At worst, someone traded you an item that looked like another, much rarer and more expensive item, and made off with your cash while you got stuck with a cheap imitation of what you really thought you were buying. In most cases, you could petition that transaction and get your money back.
In the virtual realm, rules can be forced upon players through software. You can hard code something into the code of a game that the player cannot circumvent. If you don't want them to be able to steal from another player, you can insert code that prevents it. In essence, you remove their choice, for the sake of game play.
In the real world, no such barrier exists. For example, there are laws and rules that say scamming is illegal. But that law, in and of itself, doesn't physically prevent the act of scamming. Anyone who chooses to do so, can engage in the act of scamming. And while there can be consequences to that act, there is no physical barrier that prevents someone from scamming. Reality does have a basic set of rules though. Things like gravity. "What goes up, must come down." Things like physics. "If you want to go up, and stay up, you have to be able to exert an equal or greater force that opposes gravity."
Eve is a sandbox. Just like the real world. And just like the real world, basic laws exist. You must use a jump gate or jump drive to move between systems. POS's use a set ammount of fuel, every hour. Minmatar must use a quantity of duct tape that is equal or greater to the inverse square of the mass of their ships.
Okay, so the last one isn't quite true, but you get the idea. Eve allows you the choice to do practically anything. And while those choices may come with unpleasant consequences, you are free to make them.
If you hold a unix shell up to your ear, can you still hear the c: ? |
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 13:00:00 -
[74]
CCP would get into trouble if they turned a blind eye to GTC/Character scamming because it involves the transfer of RL money and that falls into the RL realm of fraud.
CCP allow in-game scamming because it doesn't, I don't think they openly approve of scamming but don't really want to get involved in policing everything. Customer service isn't exactly a strong point, we get bare bones coverage. I think I went 3 months with an open petition which I eventually closed because I found a player with the answer to my in-game problem before CCP.
|
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 16:51:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Veldya
CCP would get into trouble if they turned a blind eye to GTC/Character scamming because it involves the transfer of RL money and that falls into the RL realm of fraud.
CCP allow in-game scamming because it doesn't, I don't think they openly approve of scamming but don't really want to get involved in policing everything. Customer service isn't exactly a strong point, we get bare bones coverage. I think I went 3 months with an open petition which I eventually closed because I found a player with the answer to my in-game problem before CCP.
okey don't we have any lawyers from iceland that can check on this?
i asked a lawyer freind (but i am from danmark so not sure if it would apply) and he told me the same thing that i concluded, that this could not be considered a breach of the law if ccp allowed scamming with these, since the stuff getting scammed is 100% ccp's property and all you do is moving around ingame data which is not yours, so unless you scam the gtc out of some ones hand which actually could be considered a rl scam since the gtc is your property, then there would be no problem.
so i still don't get why it is okey to scam billions of isk in mods etc. but not okey to scam them in charecter sale or gtc's, as long as the only thing you scam is isk?
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Avon
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 16:55:00 -
[76]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
so i still don't get why it is okey to scam billions of isk in mods etc. but not okey to scam them in charecter sale or gtc's, as long as the only thing you scam is isk?
If you scam a character sale the owner loses the transfer fee. That is real money.
If you scam a timecode then the seller loses out on the cost of the code.
Fraud:
Obtaining goods, money, or services through deception.
If the person scammed has a tangible financial loss (as opposed to some missing pixels), then it has ceased to be a "legitimate" in-game scam.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 17:05:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
you gotta choice, either one or the other. this "mix and match **** gotta go" :P
This is an idiotic statement. Why does this "mix and match **** gotta go" exactly? What logical justification is there for such an assertion?
What this post is really about is the fact that you don't like scamming, and by asserting that CCP must allow no scamming or all scamming (including scams that deal with real cash, which is not only a bad idea but illegal) you are only giving the impression that you are just unhappy with the ability to scam people in general.
----------------
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Hegbard
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:54:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Taedrin
Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but I would believe that a game as widespread as WoW, this would be challenged if it didn't hold any legal weight.
It has been challenged not just in WoW, but also in other games and I seem to recall one case where the court didn't accept that piece of the EULA and lots of other cases that were settled outside of courts to avoid a nasty precedent (for game companies).
I'm pretty sure that part of the EULA is void at least in Sweden since we do have some really strong consumer protection laws. And the company I work for has a similar paragraph in the EULA of the service we sell and our lawyer just laughed at us and said something like: "add it, it won't change anything, but at least it will scare away a few".
|
Relyen
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2008.06.03 20:57:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Relyen on 03/06/2008 20:57:02
There is one very simple thing you and others can do to prevent 99% of all scams.
Use your brain.
|
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
|
Posted - 2008.06.04 03:38:00 -
[80]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
okey don't we have any lawyers from iceland that can check on this?
i asked a lawyer freind (but i am from danmark so not sure if it would apply) and he told me the same thing that i concluded, that this could not be considered a breach of the law if ccp allowed scamming with these, since the stuff getting scammed is 100% ccp's property and all you do is moving around ingame data which is not yours, so unless you scam the gtc out of some ones hand which actually could be considered a rl scam since the gtc is your property, then there would be no problem.
so i still don't get why it is okey to scam billions of isk in mods etc. but not okey to scam them in charecter sale or gtc's, as long as the only thing you scam is isk?
Within reason yes CCP owns the property within EVE but for GTCs we are talking about a payment for service, not for property, they are not something that has any physical form in-game. Can't acquire them in-game, they are sourced from outside the game via real money.
There have been court rulings that say EULAs and the like do not hold much water because they void themselves by denying you rights you have via common law. They can put down that agreeing to the EULA CCP can come to your place and shoot you in the head without any legal consequences, when there is a conflict between contract law and other Law it is contract law that loses.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |