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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 02:28:00 -
[61]
After a power outage, I just got around to finishing my reading of the chatlogs, and I'm pretty ****ed off at the conduct of the meeting. The chair decided to arbitrarily mute a member of the Council who had done nothing wrong "til the vote", and then proceeded to re-mute her twice more without ever actually letting the block off until after the vote had already taken place. And this was on the basis of two "formal warnings" for conduct that is entirely normal in a text-based meeting - the first was for calling a point of order, and the second was for taking marginally longer to type a comment than it took Jade to ask for silence. This is abuse of power of the highest order on the part of the chair, and I'm incredibly disappointed to see it.
Also, on the issue of abstentions, it's a total non-issue, and the fact that a minute was spent on it is wasteful, let alone an hour. Abstention = AFK = absent from meeting, except as regards quorum and replacement by alternates. If "Aye" > "Nay", the motion passes, and if "Nay" <= "Aye", the motion fails. Abstentions have no weight whatsoever - Serenity is appallingly wrong when he says that they be counted as Nays, and Ankh is understandably wrong(but still wrong) when she says that majority-abstain is a failed vote. If eight of you abstain and one Aye vote is cast, the motion is passed. It's the same as what happens if, say, 90% of eligible Eve accounts choose not to cast a CSM ballot - we don't throw out the results, we simply record the votes of those who chose to cast a vote, and go from there. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 03:10:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto After a power outage, I just got around to finishing my reading of the chatlogs, and I'm pretty ****ed off at the conduct of the meeting. The chair decided to arbitrarily mute a member of the Council who had done nothing wrong "til the vote", and then proceeded to re-mute her twice more without ever actually letting the block off until after the vote had already taken place.
This is actually a technical problem we discovered with the chat channel :
The first notification of a mute is where I muted Inanna (following polite requests, and two formal warnings against disruptive conduct.)
The second notification of a mute (immediately before the vote) is actually me clicking "un-mute" which for some bizarre reason doesn't work and ends up kicking the person from the channel.
The third notification of a mute is actually the un-mute once she'd been reinvited to the channel by me.
= there are technical problems with the mute system in that channel. (we checked all this afterwards btw).
But technical issues aside:
Its the role of the Chair to moderate meetings. If people are refusing to ask to be recognized by the chair before speaking (while other CSM members are quite happy to do this) then its the responsibility of the chair to ensure that steps are taken when this conduct damages our ability to make progress. Polite requests were made, warnings were given. I took the step to mute the representative when she point blank refused to remain quiet while a vote was being conducted. The vice chair agreed with this step.
Ultimately the CSM reps need to respect the authority of the chair to moderate meetings. If they don't then no progress can be made. If people don't like the way I handled this they are free to complain to CCP or whatever. But I'll continue to do my best to ensure we actually get things done rather than spending fruitless periods listening to endless cross talk and interruptions while other CSM reps are actually respecting the process of the meeting and waiting to be recognized before speaking their own points.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Tress Macneille
Eight year old girls GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 03:37:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Tress Macneille on 09/06/2008 03:39:09 I AM JADE CONSTANTINE, GOD CHAIRMAN AND EMPEROR OF THE CSM
BOW BEFORE MY UNPOPULAR AND UNSUPPORTED ISSUES LEST I MUTE YOU
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Tress Macneille
Eight year old girls GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 03:41:00 -
[64]
OR POST A WALL OF TEXT THAT DOES NOT ADDRESS YOUR QUESTION, THAT TOO IS ONE OF THE MANY E-WEAPONS IN MY E-ARSENAL
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 03:53:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/06/2008 03:54:13 If the block was a technical error, I won't fault you for that. But that doesn't let you off the hook for the muting in the first place. I acknowledge the right of the chair to moderate the meeting, and to mute or even eject members when necessary. But in this situation it was patently unnecessary, to the point where I don't think reasonable disagreement can excuse your actions.
Your first warning to her (page 21, for those reading along) came at the end of an exchange that was acrimonious on all sides, and where you called a vote that was self-negating (4 votes in favour of interpreting that the rules all along had been that 5 votes are required to pass a motion). She objected and explained her objection, you gave her a "formal warning" without further explanation on your part.
Your second warning to her (page 43) I'll quote here in its entirety: [ 2008.06.08 21:35:07 ]Jade Constantine >so bare with me please and I'll state the issue prior to a vote [ 2008.06.08 21:35:11 ]Jade Constantine >and that will end it [ 2008.06.08 21:35:15 ]Jade Constantine >**** [ 2008.06.08 21:35:15 ]Inanna Zuni >Actually, I see no decisions on topics which we have taken which are compromised in any way [ 2008.06.08 21:35:32 ]Inanna Zuni >bear (to carry) not care (to eb naked) [ 2008.06.08 21:35:49 ]Ankhesentapemkah >objection noted inanna, now please respect the process. [ 2008.06.08 21:35:52 ]Jade Constantine >Innana I'm giving you a second formal warning for this session for interruptions and interfering with the process of the chair
Aside from a (totally unnecessary) grammar edit on Inanna's part, which she'd been doing all night, you just gave her a warning for not looking at the screen during an 8-second window, plus or minus lag, between when you could be interpreted to have called for silence and when she finished typing her message, or a 4-second window after you clarified slightly. Call me crazy, but a warning over taking a bit too long to type a response is abusive, and destructive of respect for the Chair.
Immediately after the second "formal warning", Inanna asked for clarification of exactly what the warning meant. For that matter, so did Hardin and LaVista, which implies to me that nobody knew what you were doing. You certainly hadn't specified up until that point in the chatlogs, but the fact that three people questioned its meaning and Darius questioned its validity means that I can safely say you also hadn't specified it anywhere else, which means you can't blame Inanna for not knowing what she was being warned against or what the consequences of ignoring those warnings would be. Those things are standard for any warning anywhere, either int he form of rules of order, contempt of court laws, or something else of that nature, or they're contained within the warning themselves, but you didn't provide them, which makes confusion basically inevitable. And apparently, this confusion and questioning of your decision were mute-worthy.
While it is certainly the right of the chair to prevent members from disrupting the meeting, it is also the right of members to question, request clarification of, and even formally challenge and seek to overturn the rulings of the Chair under all rules of order I've ever seen. Not only did you ignore those rights, you disrespected them flagrantly, by silencing a member of the Council who was seeking to do no more than exercise her rights as a member. You acted against the proper proceedings of a deliberative assembly, and misused your powers as Chair to do so. Your actions were abusive and generally reprehensible, and deserve condemnation in the strongest terms, and if I were at the table my first actions would be to nail down these amorphous rules of order well enough to find a way to eject you from the Chair.
I'm willing to accord you quite a number of rights due to your electoral standing, but dictatorial powers are not among them.
Oh, and Tress, STFU. You're not helping. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.09 03:57:00 -
[66]
excerpts:
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 19:33:39 ]Jade Constantine >**************************
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:18:12 ]Jade Constantine >we've decided a couple of important things here today which need to be entered into the records specifically [ 2008.06.08 21:18:34 ]Jade Constantine >firstly the change to the role of Alternates is a change to the CSM constitution [ 2008.06.08 21:18:45 ]Jade Constantine >we can certainly work in this way provisionally [ 2008.06.08 21:18:53 ]Jade Constantine >but it need to be brought and confirmed by CCP [ 2008.06.08 21:18:59 ]Jade Constantine >*** [ 2008.06.08 21:19:01 ]Jade Constantine >Secondly [ 2008.06.08 21:19:06 ]Darius JOHNSON >? I disagree with that [ 2008.06.08 21:19:23 ]Darius JOHNSON >The constitution never defined that role as we voted. [ 2008.06.08 21:19:31 ]Darius JOHNSON >We clarified. Not altered [ 2008.06.08 21:19:39 ]Jade Constantine >arguable [ 2008.06.08 21:19:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Not at all [ 2008.06.08 21:20:00 ]Jade Constantine >but never the less we are going to need to confirm the role of alternates in Iceland [ 2008.06.08 21:20:08 ]Darius JOHNSON >Summon alternates, that's the only way they're mentioned. it doesn't state anything at all about levels of attendance.
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:36:58 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 22:06:57, Reason: "till the vote". [ 2008.06.08 21:44:06 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:14:05.
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:50:53 ]Dierdra Vaal >well I gotta go guys. I hope you can work this out.
Quote: [ 2008.06.08 22:01:16 ]Jade Constantine >she ignored me [ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you?
These logs are getting longer and longer and the rules increasingly seem to be either still unclear or just a facade. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Martin VanBuren
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 04:09:00 -
[67]
why couldn't you have just stuck to the issues jade instead of trying to turn the csm into some sort of toy
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Daveydweeb
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 04:13:00 -
[68]
Jade Constantine failing to explain his decisions, then muting people to avoid confrontation?
Who could have seen this coming?
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.06.09 04:29:00 -
[69]
Very classy.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 04:50:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Erotic Irony These logs are getting longer and longer and the rules increasingly seem to be either still unclear or just a facade.
Both, actually. The rules are naturally unclear, because the constitution of the CSM is a PR pitch, as opposed to a quasi-legal document. CCP is their usual overworked selves, and they haven't clarified further, and nobody at the CSM is lawyerly enough to have forced proper rules of order upon the Council yet.
Thing is, power abhors a vacuum even more than nature does. If there's unclear rules, every side will push as hard as it can to gain more power for itself - Darius, as a common member, is agitating for the rights of common members at every opportunity and the utter irrelevance of the Chair, and Jade, as Chair, is trying to define himself into far more power than anybody else probably wants him to have. They're both pushing for far more than they ought to get, but between their personalities and philosophies, and the fact that they're trying to further their own interests(which will make anybody fight a little bit harder) I'm not surprised by their actions at all.
It's also true of every other organization with multiple power bases I can think of that's not bound in by some pretty ironclad law - the House of Commons has spent 800 years hedging out the Crown and Lords, by means ranging from financial threats, to questionable constitutional changes, to civil war and regicide. Presidents from Andrew Jackson to George W Bush have sought to expand the power of the executive beyond that which their predecessors enjoyed, and Congress has constantly pushed back.
The fact that Jade and Darius(and others, of course, but those two are the most egregious) are doing the same thing here doesn't surprise me and, sadly, neither does the fact that they're both being so bush-league about it. But at the same time as I'm unsurprised that somebody will take up the banners of the anarchist and the tyrant, I'm disappointed by those who do. Darius needs to calm down and get past his 4th-grade civics notion of absolute, universal equality in all things, and Jade needs to get down off his high horse and acknowledge the rightful limits on his role as Chair. And until both of them do that, there will continue to be unnecessary strife that makes them all look like children, or worse, politicians.
I hope Iceland solves the problem - face-to-face discussion is almost inevitably less bloodthirsty than text-based - but I'm not excessively optimistic about the good functioning of this Council over the next five and a half months. I hope to be proven wrong, but the issues at hand seem too fundamental, and being stifled in those issues seems too likely to provoke bitterness, for these hatchets to be buried among this group. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
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Viktor Amand
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Posted - 2008.06.09 04:52:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Viktor Amand on 09/06/2008 04:53:32 Serves me right for voting for Jade. I thought he could handle the responsibility of CSM in a reasonable manner. Boy was I wrong.
My worry was that the Goons would **** up the process. Jade's actually making them look good, ironically.
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baalaagaa
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 04:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Martin VanBuren why couldn't you have just stuck to the issues jade instead of trying to turn the csm into some sort of toy
Don't you know he is very important in the eve online community
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mynnna
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:10:00 -
[73]
Originally by: baalaagaa
Originally by: Martin VanBuren why couldn't you have just stuck to the issues jade instead of trying to turn the csm into some sort of toy
Don't you know he is very important in the eve online community
POSTCOUNT = NOTORIETY = RESPECT
Or maybe in his case, WORDCOUNT...
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Daveydweeb
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:17:00 -
[74]
Originally by: mynnna
Originally by: baalaagaa
Originally by: Martin VanBuren why couldn't you have just stuck to the issues jade instead of trying to turn the csm into some sort of toy
Don't you know he is very important in the eve online community
POSTCOUNT = NOTORIETY = RESPECT
Or maybe in his case, WORDCOUNT...
+rep to you
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:39:00 -
[75]
I find it quite ironic about how people were screaming for the ability to remove a chairman, should the goons get a chairman with the intention of griefing the council. But now it seems like it's turned around
Anyways. Yesterday was an absolute fiasco. The way Jade conducted himself is, as pointed out, unacceptable in my eyes. Not only did he unrightfully mute Inanna, based on vague and unreasonable reasons, he also totally ignored certain council members and had no respect for the fact that people had a real life. This resulted in the meeting taking 2 hours longer than expected. That's 4 hours total! And why? Well, I will let those who read the chatlogs judge for themselves. But it's pretty damn clear why such a huge deal was made out of it, resulting in this chaos.
Hopefully everybody will learn something from this, so that we don't waste so much time next time.
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HClChicken
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:44:00 -
[76]
It seemed like during the meetings they came up with new issues constantly. How about next time you make a vote for an issue along the lines of "only issues previously stated in our CSM forum, or in the alliance hall forum can be brought to the CSM meetings" This would cut down on the lengths of the meetings drastically.
It would also allow more debate since you can look through the threads and read them rather and try and prove your point in a 2 hour timespan.
Maybe make a vote for the removal of a chair if he does an inefficient job, one that takes longer than 3 hours to do, counts as inefficiency.
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Kis Kecheri
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:57:00 -
[77]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I find it quite ironic about how people were screaming for the ability to remove a chairman, should the goons get a chairman with the intention of griefing the council. But now it seems like it's turned around
Anyways. Yesterday was an absolute fiasco. The way Jade conducted himself is, as pointed out, unacceptable in my eyes. Not only did he unrightfully mute Inanna, based on vague and unreasonable reasons, he also totally ignored certain council members and had no respect for the fact that people had a real life. This resulted in the meeting taking 2 hours longer than expected. That's 4 hours total! And why? Well, I will let those who read the chatlogs judge for themselves. But it's pretty damn clear why such a huge deal was made out of it, resulting in this chaos.
Hopefully everybody will learn something from this, so that we don't waste so much time next time.
I think a more important issue though is the "Righteos Instigator" that Darius JOHNSON is playing.
Through out the meeting and especially in the last quarter he baited Jade and company multiple times. He was trying to push the meeting even farther off topic into a all out brawl.
Examples:
[ 2008.06.08 21:36:25 ]Darius JOHNSON >Your warnings don't mean a thing FYI
[ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE!
[ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool
[ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you?
[ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on
If the CSM wants to be taken seriously then that kind of behavior can't be condoned.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:03:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
I think a more important issue though is the "Righteos Instigator" that Darius JOHNSON is playing.
Through out the meeting and especially in the last quarter he baited Jade and company multiple times. He was trying to push the meeting even farther off topic into a all out brawl.
If the CSM wants to be taken seriously then that kind of behavior can't be condoned.
I'm not going to defend Darius' actions. But he makes some fine points.
Though it could be considered childish, at least he didn't interupt the meeting nor did he mute people.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:04:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri I think a more important issue though is the "Righteos Instigator" that Darius JOHNSON is playing.
Through out the meeting and especially in the last quarter he baited Jade and company multiple times. He was trying to push the meeting even farther off topic into a all out brawl.
Examples:
[ 2008.06.08 21:36:25 ]Darius JOHNSON >Your warnings don't mean a thing FYI
[ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE!
[ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool
[ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you?
[ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on
If the CSM wants to be taken seriously then that kind of behavior can't be condoned.
Even if they're both being an ass to the same degree, Darius isn't going around censoring people. Jade's conduct needs to be addressed well before anybody else's, for that reason alone. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Erik Amirault
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:04:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Erik Amirault on 09/06/2008 06:04:55
Maybe because this is an internet spaceships committee for internet spaceships pilots to discuss internet spaceships? The committee isn't some 'ultimate roleplaying device' just for Jade to obsess over constantly and acquire more and more e-spaceship power in. If Jade is going to act up and pretend (s)he is some super important person with new and growing authorities rather than what (s)he actually is, then someone should just tell him to sit down and shut it. Enter Darius.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:05:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 06:06:23 I'd like to see someone held accountable for the cluster**** that was meeting 3. I know many others of your various constituencies feel similarly. ESPECIALLY, disenfranchising Ianna's constituency.
Ridiculous, utterly ridiculous.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:10:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Erik Amirault If Jade is going to act up and pretend (s)he is some super important person with new and growing authorities rather than what (s)he actually is, then someone should just tell him to sit down and shut it. Enter Darius.
That would get you muted. But you could always abstain, of course!
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Daveydweeb
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:18:00 -
[83]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Erik Amirault If Jade is going to act up and pretend (s)he is some super important person with new and growing authorities rather than what (s)he actually is, then someone should just tell him to sit down and shut it. Enter Darius.
That would get you muted. But you could always abstain, of course!
Is this is the bit where I grin smugly in the knowledge that I did not vote for Jade Constantine?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:19:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Anton Marvik Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 06:06:47 I'd like to see someone held accountable for the cluster**** that was meeting 3. ESPECIALLY, disenfranchising Ianna's constituency.
Ridiculous, utterly ridiculous.
Most rules of order I've seen for bodies like this allow for impeachment of a member with a 2/3 vote. I've never implemented such a vote, so I've never looked at whether it can be narrowed to just stripping their roles while leaving their seat intact(since I have no objections to Jade's conduct as a member thus far), but I'd imagine that it's possible to do so. Seems to me there's an obvious target for such a motion. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:21:00 -
[85]
Reading that log made me think, damn, Goonfleet is cool.
------------------------------------------------
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Drolus
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:24:00 -
[86]
Oh CSM. I KNEW Jade would provide me the comedy so much needed in this forum.
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Drolus
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:25:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Erik Amirault If Jade is going to act up and pretend (s)he is some super important person with new and growing authorities rather than what (s)he actually is, then someone should just tell him to sit down and shut it. Enter Darius.
That would get you muted. But you could always abstain, of course!
Is this is the bit where I grin smugly in the knowledge that I did not vote for Jade Constantine?
this
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:50:00 -
[88]
laffing at the people who voted for jade, that's a pretty funny chatlog right there, keep up the good work !
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Drolus
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Posted - 2008.06.09 07:27:00 -
[89]
Originally by: baalaagaa
Don't you know he is very important in the eve online community
Is that for roleplaying a nymphomaniac Gallentean hooker, or whatever he's into. Or has Odo actually achieved something in this game?
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Atama Cardel
Even-Flow
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Posted - 2008.06.09 07:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Originally by: LaVista Vista I find it quite ironic about how people were screaming for the ability to remove a chairman, should the goons get a chairman with the intention of griefing the council. But now it seems like it's turned around
Anyways. Yesterday was an absolute fiasco. The way Jade conducted himself is, as pointed out, unacceptable in my eyes. Not only did he unrightfully mute Inanna, based on vague and unreasonable reasons, he also totally ignored certain council members and had no respect for the fact that people had a real life. This resulted in the meeting taking 2 hours longer than expected. That's 4 hours total! And why? Well, I will let those who read the chatlogs judge for themselves. But it's pretty damn clear why such a huge deal was made out of it, resulting in this chaos.
Hopefully everybody will learn something from this, so that we don't waste so much time next time.
I think a more important issue though is the "Righteos Instigator" that Darius JOHNSON is playing.
Through out the meeting and especially in the last quarter he baited Jade and company multiple times. He was trying to push the meeting even farther off topic into a all out brawl.
Examples:
[ 2008.06.08 21:36:25 ]Darius JOHNSON >Your warnings don't mean a thing FYI
[ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE!
[ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool
[ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you?
[ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on
If the CSM wants to be taken seriously then that kind of behavior can't be condoned.
Jade alt spotted
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