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To the Republic and Mandate governments, considering the Starkmanir

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Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:31:00 - [31] So, honorable Admiral Lok'ri ... The Court Chamberlain, his highness Dochuta Karsoth says: " ... preserving the remaining population of the Starkmanir Tribe, if in fact it is proven that such a population exists ..." And now you say "the discovery of descendants of the Starkmanir tribe is not surprising at all." ? Has the Court Chamberlain not the knowledge that you might have about the matter? Or are you perhaps confused? RB
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:37:00 - [32] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 05/06/2008 15:41:38 Quote: Has the Court Chamberlain not the knowledge that you might have about the matter? Or are you perhaps confused? Neither. Descendants do not equal the remaining population of the tribe. They can be descendants, and genetically "pure" ones, at that, without being truly a member of the tribe Starkmanir. We have known about descendants of tribe Starkmanir throughout the empire forever, this is not news. The news is the discovery of a large population, which means that there is a minute chance that they actually still consider themselves Starkmanir. Without further evidence, however, it is safest to assume that they do not, but rather represent a Starkmanir derived line of Ammatar. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:58:00 - [33] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 05/06/2008 15:41:38 Quote: Has the Court Chamberlain not the knowledge that you might have about the matter? Or are you perhaps confused? Neither. Descendants do not equal the remaining population of the tribe. They can be descendants, and genetically "pure" ones, at that, without being truly a member of the tribe Starkmanir. We have known about descendants of tribe Starkmanir throughout the empire forever, this is not news. The news is the discovery of a large population, which means that there is a minute chance that they actually still consider themselves Starkmanir. Without further evidence, however, it is safest to assume that they do not, but rather represent a Starkmanir derived line of Ammatar. Ah, this explains the willingness of the Amarr Empire to call for full benevolence of this large population. Courteous and respectful indeed in these times of tension. I see, well then there is nothing in the way to have them called for the Tribal Elders for a meeting, as the benevolence of the Empire is guaranteed. RB
Makkar	Posted - 2008.06.05 16:17:00 - [34] Gaven is actually quite correct - If those who are "genetically pure" Starkmanir do not consider themselves Starkmanir, then they are not Starkmanir. A tribe is an identity as much as(and perhaps more than) it is a genetic strain. If that is the case (and even if it were not), the Starkmanir were not there at the formation of the Republic. They're not part of the Republic. The Republic can lay no more claim to them than the Amarr can. Let us not forget that the Amarr think they have some dominion over all Minmatar simply because we are of Minmatar stock, and we all know how we feel about that. Now, the Chamberlain said he would preserve the bloodline. Not once did he say he would release the bloodline. There is nothing to suggest the latter is his intent at all. I know that as I type, there are those who are probably loading guns, and performing final checks on ships against that very eventuality. With that in mind, let us consider our position very carefully; We want those of the Starkmanir bloodline back. That's a given. We also want those of the Starkmanir bloodline alive. This is also a given. Of the two, which do we want more? Answer that question, and you'll understand why going in all guns blazing when the Chamberlain says he's not about to give them back is a horrendously stupid idea. The Chamberlain said nothing about preserving the bloodline in living bodies, after all, and DNA can be held in stasis almost indefinitely. The Starkmanir have become, effectively, hostages. A delicate touch is needed this time.
Daziel Iaar PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.06.05 16:46:00 - [35] These slaves that have the same blood line as the Starkmanir tribe are safer in mandate lands than they are in the so called "republic" or any other area outside of the Empire. They do not have to worry about not getting enough food, they do not have to worry about getting killed because a minmatar corporation lost a battle in a tournament and fellow minmatar started a riot over it. The very evidence that the blood line is pure and has been sustained all these years proves just how well they are looked after. Without even knowing where they have descended from the blood line is still pure and strong and they are living in peace and well cared for. Why would you take them away from this to dump them into a region of space where they will just be another "tribe" who has to fend for themselves. "His Will Be Done"
Mr Reeth Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.05 17:35:00 - [36] All this talk is pointless. These slaves are dead. They were dead the second the Sisters announced their presence. That announcement put these poor doomed souls right in the eye of the crap-storm that is Amarr/Tribal relations. This is perhaps the worst place a living being can exist. Though the place they reside now is their home and has been for a thousand years or more, they are no longer safe there. Though they have a master kind enough to request humanitarian aid from the Sisters, they are in great danger. Their value as unique slaves is enough to attract he attention of rogue slavers, Sanshas, Blooders, Angels, Gallente adult holo producers and a planetÆs population of miscellaneous scum. If they are released to the Republic these creatures will come for them and not stop. And the Republic will not be able to keep them safe. If they stay in the Mandate the freedom fighters will come for them. And I have no doubt the freedom fighters would kill every last one of them in an effort to ôfreeö them. We should start planning the funerals now.
Seishomaru	Posted - 2008.06.05 18:08:00 - [37] I do not care if they are back or alive! Only thing I care is that all Amarrians die, all their woman enslaved and all their children reprocessed to be used as fertilizer! Because GOD gave ME this right!
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.05 18:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Redbad The taskforce shown in Yulai is not a matter of the Republic, Summit-Delegate Scourge Drakonis. It is a Tribal matter; ... as is the re-emerging of the Starkmanir Tribe, lady Rhiannon. I would have to agree with that. My interest is merely securing the Starkmanir tribe's right to self-government, same as any other tribe's. Elsebeth Rhiannon -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 18:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Redbad The taskforce shown in Yulai is not a matter of the Republic, Summit-Delegate Scourge Drakonis. It is a Tribal matter; ... as is the re-emerging of the Starkmanir Tribe, lady Rhiannon. I would have to agree with that. My interest is merely securing the Starkmanir tribe's right to self-government, same as any other tribe's. Elsebeth Rhiannon Even if they decide to continue an association with the Amarr, or perhaps a path similar to the Ammatar?
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:16:00 - [40] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 05/06/2008 19:21:24 Originally by: Eventy One Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I would have to agree with that. My interest is merely securing the Starkmanir tribe's right to self-government, same as any other tribe's. Even if they decide to continue an association with the Amarr, or perhaps a path similar to the Ammatar? I, for one, have never questioned even the Ammatar's right to have chosen the path they have. Yes, I do consider them 'traitors' to the rest of the tribes, and yes, it has lead to a war between our tribes before, but as far as I am concerned, they are still a tribe, and it is still their decision. I have and I will shoot them in self-defense, but I have never advocated that we should try and force them to change their minds otherwise. They will destroy themselves with the choice, of course, eventually -- but that too is within their rights. However, for a tribe to choose freely, it must first be free. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.05 20:14:00 - [41] I'm glad to see that the acrimony shown here does not seem to be the case between the Minmatar and Amarr governments. I think that the recognition of this by the Amarr government is encouraging. It shows sensitivity on the part of Chamberlain Karsoth regarding the value the Minmatar place upon tribal identification that we Amarr do not recognize as valid. He could've simply written this off as irrelevant and just reinforced the old line about the obsolescence of tribal identity. Instead he reached out enthusiastically and quickly. And while Karin Midular has a long history of trying to work with the Empire, it's encouraging to see that she's seeking cooperation on this particular issue.
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.05 23:15:00 - [42] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon The Ammatar have made their choice about being part of the Republic and of the Rebellion. I can respect that, even if it means I have had to fight you and will possibly have to again in the future. The Starkmanir should be given the chance to make their own, and to do it after living in both conditions. Elsebeth Rhiannon Member of the Sebiestor tribe Citizen of the Republic Quell the fires of war burning in your own bedroom before meddling in the affairs of the Ammatar, little peon. Whatever the infidel Sisters of Eve might state, the livestock belong to their owner, and in extention the Mandate. Their fate is in the Hand of God. End. ----------------------------------------------
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.05 23:26:00 - [43] The stone has finally been cast by Shakor, lady Rhiannon. We know the Republic is still very young, certainly when you compare it to our long history of Tribal heritage. Although the Parliament has spoken; the time also has come for the Tribes and their clans to reconsider the Republic for what it is and what it stands for. The handling of the Starkmanir Issue will be crucial to our Tribal cohesion. Whatever their choice, it will be of great consequence not only to the Republic, but to all what is dear to us and our ... opponents. Freedom for all Minmatar will be crucial in our talks. I feel the neccessity to speak the wish for strength and great wisdom for all People that attend this summit, as words might not be enough this time. Remember Ezzara VI, RB
Gaven Lok'ri PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.06.05 23:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Makkar Gaven is actually quite correct - If those who are "genetically pure" Starkmanir do not consider themselves Starkmanir, then they are not Starkmanir. A tribe is an identity as much as(and perhaps more than) it is a genetic strain. If that is the case (and even if it were not), the Starkmanir were not there at the formation of the Republic. They're not part of the Republic. The Republic can lay no more claim to them than the Amarr can. Let us not forget that the Amarr think they have some dominion over all Minmatar simply because we are of Minmatar stock, and we all know how we feel about that. Now, the Chamberlain said he would preserve the bloodline. Not once did he say he would release the bloodline. There is nothing to suggest the latter is his intent at all. I know that as I type, there are those who are probably loading guns, and performing final checks on ships against that very eventuality. With that in mind, let us consider our position very carefully; We want those of the Starkmanir bloodline back. That's a given. We also want those of the Starkmanir bloodline alive. This is also a given. Of the two, which do we want more? Answer that question, and you'll understand why going in all guns blazing when the Chamberlain says he's not about to give them back is a horrendously stupid idea. The Chamberlain said nothing about preserving the bloodline in living bodies, after all, and DNA can be held in stasis almost indefinitely. The Starkmanir have become, effectively, hostages. A delicate touch is needed this time. Looks to me like Shakor has the opposite opinion. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:28:00 - [45] Looks like the Amarrian agents are being quick in their actions to " coverup " the existance of these people. I do not advocate for unweighted actions but it would be best for the Mandate and the Chamberlain to explain themselves and this situation quickly. The peacefull amarrians boast plenty about not starting a war so here is a golden oportunity for them to show their good intentions. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ..., if you ever receive this: ... i highly doubt there are any farm slaves with means to access capsuleer communications... also the Empire and its agents will deal with the matter as they see fit once the investigations have been conducted and as He is with them the decisions will be correct. Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ..., if you ever receive this: ... i highly doubt there are any farm slaves with means to access capsuleer communications... I do not assume they have received it yet, no. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Dionisius Looks like the Amarrian agents are being quick in their actions to " coverup " the existance of these people. I do not advocate for unweighted actions but it would be best for the Mandate and the Chamberlain to explain themselves and this situation quickly. The peacefull amarrians boast plenty about not starting a war so here is a golden oportunity for them to show their good intentions. you are a funny person as your name allready indicates. the most easy and hitting the eye explanation: SLAVES ARE PROPERTY!!!! this is merely some rare property. they got it, you don't! i am sure you can buy the results of any experiments conducted after the initial examination to prove the slaves are of genuine rare stock are done with. 'freeing' those slaves, sending them home into eternal damnation... laughs unheard of! Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Seishomaru	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ..., if you ever receive this: ... i highly doubt there are any farm slaves with means to access capsuleer communications... also the Empire and its agents will deal with the matter as they see fit once the investigations have been conducted and as He is with them the decisions will be correct. ammar assumptions are not known for beign precise. Ammar highly doubted we had typhoon class battleships while we were slaves, amarr highly doubted that we coudl organize in an effective force... ammar higly doubeted jovians woudl withstand the mighty power of the navy fleet. Well, we all know what happened with these assumptions...
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ..., if you ever receive this: ... i highly doubt there are any farm slaves with means to access capsuleer communications... I do not assume they have received it yet, no. maybe if you jettison a bottle with a nice little letter inside? i'm sure the result would show pretty good efficiency for a minmatar.. Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Seishomaru Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon ..., if you ever receive this: ... i highly doubt there are any farm slaves with means to access capsuleer communications... also the Empire and its agents will deal with the matter as they see fit once the investigations have been conducted and as He is with them the decisions will be correct. ammar assumptions are not known for beign precise. Ammar highly doubted we had typhoon class battleships while we were slaves, amarr highly doubted that we coudl organize in an effective force... ammar higly doubeted jovians woudl withstand the mighty power of the navy fleet. Well, we all know what happened with these assumptions... ah! given, you are right on the jove there and it also turned out to spoil some minor battle. the rest? erm... yeah... i wonder if there are more 'free' minmatar or proper slaves. effective force laughs Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:55:00 - [52] Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Dionisius Looks like the Amarrian agents are being quick in their actions to " coverup " the existance of these people. I do not advocate for unweighted actions but it would be best for the Mandate and the Chamberlain to explain themselves and this situation quickly. The peacefull amarrians boast plenty about not starting a war so here is a golden oportunity for them to show their good intentions. you are a funny person as your name allready indicates. the most easy and hitting the eye explanation: SLAVES ARE PROPERTY!!!! this is merely some rare property. they got it, you don't! i am sure you can buy the results of any experiments conducted after the initial examination to prove the slaves are of genuine rare stock are done with. 'freeing' those slaves, sending them home into eternal damnation... laughs unheard of! Yes i admit i am acostumed to be described as " funny " the Jin-Mei is known to be a nation of good humored and good spirit people. Yet what we canot get ourselves acostumed to is this... barbaric way of life your people call slavery . Tell me Amarrian, does your kind still eat with bare hands too? Or are you hand fed by your minmatar prison... sorry slaves also? _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Dionisius Looks like the Amarrian agents are being quick in their actions to " coverup " the existance of these people. I do not advocate for unweighted actions but it would be best for the Mandate and the Chamberlain to explain themselves and this situation quickly. The peacefull amarrians boast plenty about not starting a war so here is a golden oportunity for them to show their good intentions. you are a funny person as your name allready indicates. the most easy and hitting the eye explanation: SLAVES ARE PROPERTY!!!! this is merely some rare property. they got it, you don't! i am sure you can buy the results of any experiments conducted after the initial examination to prove the slaves are of genuine rare stock are done with. 'freeing' those slaves, sending them home into eternal damnation... laughs unheard of! Yes i admit i am acostumed to be described as " funny " the Jin-Mei is known to be a nation of good humored and good spirit people. Yet what we canot get ourselves acostumed to is this... barbaric way of life your people call slavery . Tell me Amarrian, does your kind still eat with bare hands too? Or are you hand fed by your minmatar prison... sorry slaves also? oh this absolutely depends on the food served and the occasion.. we do however use a wide range of cutlery. personally i prefer being fed by female slaves, not with their hands and not by the hairy ones of matari blood... Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Sepherim Ordo Quaesitoris Magna Ordo	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:15:00 - [54] There is something more important in this matter than the fact that the Starkmanir are slaves. The Yulai Accord grants the Amarr Empire (like all signing entities) whole sobereignity of their space. For those who missed their law lessons, this means effectively that in Amarr space only the Amarr can speak. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, in Amarr space only Amarr laws count. So you may say "we decide because they are tribals", or "I defend their right to self-determination" or whatever. Truth is that, as much as you may desire so, Amarr still controls their destinies as those of any other Amarrian citizen, and will always do so until it decides to let them go. Then of course, you could actually attack the Yulai station... wouldn't be so surprising by now. Oh, and I recommend you to take a look into your internal politics before looking at someone else's. Seems like Midular, unfortunately to be honest, is going to be expelled too soon, and we all will be drawn into full-fledged war. Many more will die than those Starkmanir... Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:22:00 - [55] Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Dionisius Looks like the Amarrian agents are being quick in their actions to " coverup " the existance of these people. I do not advocate for unweighted actions but it would be best for the Mandate and the Chamberlain to explain themselves and this situation quickly. The peacefull amarrians boast plenty about not starting a war so here is a golden oportunity for them to show their good intentions. you are a funny person as your name allready indicates. the most easy and hitting the eye explanation: SLAVES ARE PROPERTY!!!! this is merely some rare property. they got it, you don't! i am sure you can buy the results of any experiments conducted after the initial examination to prove the slaves are of genuine rare stock are done with. 'freeing' those slaves, sending them home into eternal damnation... laughs unheard of! Yes i admit i am acostumed to be described as " funny " the Jin-Mei is known to be a nation of good humored and good spirit people. Yet what we canot get ourselves acostumed to is this... barbaric way of life your people call slavery . Tell me Amarrian, does your kind still eat with bare hands too? Or are you hand fed by your minmatar prison... sorry slaves also? oh this absolutely depends on the food served and the occasion.. we do however use a wide range of cutlery. personally i prefer being fed by female slaves, not with their hands and not by the hairy ones of matari blood... Nice of you to share that piece of information with all of us Mr.Bromide. I am sure the most ecclisiastic members of your government will appreciate the way you follow your own scriptures. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Rathera D'Sarth Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Sepherim There is something more important in this matter than the fact that the Starkmanir are slaves. The Yulai Accord grants the Amarr Empire (...) Unfortunatly there has been, quite recently, something of a demonstration in the Yulai system, involving certain party's military hardware, just how such accord is viewed right now. I don't think just saying that 'it is our law that decides how this goes', is going to cut it.
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:28:00 - [57] Edited by: Ethidium Bromide on 06/06/2008 11:36:16 Originally by: Dionisius huge Pyramide Nice of you to share that piece of information with all of us Mr.Bromide. I am sure the most ecclisiastic members of your government will appreciate the way you follow your own scriptures. oh what a thourough misunderstanding obviously. they are not allowed to use their hands and no hair because of my concerns for hygene! the whole reason for all this however is that i might be a bit eccentric Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
Sepherim Ordo Quaesitoris Magna Ordo	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Rathera D'Sarth Unfortunatly there has been, quite recently, something of a demonstration in the Yulai system, involving certain party's military hardware, just how such accord is viewed right now. I don't think just saying that 'it is our law that decides how this goes', is going to cut it. I did point it out. In any case, if laws don't cut it (laws they approved afterall) then that gives us a measure of what kind of nation they are. Are they really apt to take any others under their "care" if they can't even honor their deals, the laws they approve? Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:37:00 - [59] Originally by: Ethidium Bromide Originally by: Dionisius huge Pyramide Nice of you to share that piece of information with all of us Mr.Bromide. I am sure the most ecclisiastic members of your government will appreciate the way you follow your own scriptures. oh what a thourough misunderstanding obviously. they are not allowed to use their hands and no hair because of my concerns for hygene! the whole reason for all this however is that i might be a bit eccentric Ah!Sense of humour! _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon First, to our brothers and sisters in the Starkmanir tribe, if you ever receive this: words cannot begin to describe the joy we have felt today hearing about you. We await with great eagerness your return home. To the governments of the Minmatar Republic and the Ammatar Mandate: please make the safe passage of the Starkmanir tribe to Republic space a top issue in the hopefully continuing cease-fire talks. I am sure the Amarr Empire is eager to investigate, but it is hardly their business after their past treatment of the Starkmanir. Elsebeth Rhiannon Citizen of the Republic Hear hear. While obviously not to be trivialized, the current internal struggle of the Republic should in no way be allowed to hinder this most important priority, and I hope all sides can come together to advance it. ----- -- we all live in a yellow subroutine --

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