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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Wrong. You made the original posit. Jade kicked Inanna. The logs, not just the system msg, but the other members declaring that she wasn't on the blocked list, show that this was not the case. Thus you have no evidence other then conjecture to make such a statement.
I do not think you understand how private channels work in Eve. There is no "blocked list" there is an "approved list" if you are not on the "approved list" you do not get in. You are on the "approved list" from the point you are invited to the time someone removes you.
When I make a private channel i do not have to block the entirety of Eve from joining, they are by default until I invite them. Its an "invite-only" channel.
If she was removed from that list the channel would neither show it as far as i can tell. Nor would she be able to get back in.
Now i just went and did some testing, And when you unmute someone it kicks them from the channel AND removes them from the list AND sends a message to the system that the person has been muted.
Note that this shows up twice after the initial muting by Jade, which was 30 minutes for some ungodly reason that anyone would think they would take 30 minutes to get to the vote. But if it showed up twice then Jade would have had to unmute Inanna twice. And doing such would have meant that she knew what would happen when She would unmute someone. I can understand the mistake the first time. But not the second.
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Kis Kecheri
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.10 22:58:00 -
[32]
Then after all this testing to see exactly what would actually happen you still think Jade intentionally muted and kicked Inanna on purpose from the start or are you now changing it to "Jade figured out how the system worked and engineered a method to kick maliciously after some trial and error?"
This is a lot of hoop jumping.
Absurdum reductum: Jade mutes Inanna with the desire to unmute soon after. The system kicks her at the unmute without anyone realizing it and people eventually figure it out. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:07:00 -
[33]
I can't believe you are still arguing about this seriously. Get a sense of perspective already! I muted a member of the CSM. Yep I did it! I was the moderator (Chair) for a live discussion in a chat channel that lasted 4 hours and near the end of that time I ended up taking a decision that was backed by my (Vice Chair) to temp mute a CSM rep for as long as it took me to state the terms we were voting on. HINT: (while the chair is stating terms for a vote people are not supposed to be talking in channel ANYWAY). If you look at the log you'll see that first mute notification when I clicked mute. You'll see me state the terms of the vote and say "now vote!" and you'll see a second mute notification (that was actually through ccp's twisted logic) me clicking "un-mute" being recorded as a "kick from channel".
What followed was people voting and then us wondering where the muted CSM rep had gone (thinking of course that it was quick duration mute/unmute) not a bloody channel kick. Froth and emoism followed.
So ultimately here's the story.
1 CSM Chair (with responsibility to moderate a meeting) 2. Moderates the meeting. 3. Moderation involves a temp mute that goes horribly wrong due to ccp bugs. 4. Muted rep is un-muted and given the option to vote.
10,000 alts and forum trolls cry about it on the forum.
Good heavens, talk about a pathetic over-reaction to a routine matter of moderating a chat channel. I've been in meetings of caffeine-crazed stock-brokers being told they aren't getting their full Christmas bonus that involved less crying and gnashing of teeth than this topic.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri Then after all this testing to see exactly what would actually happen you still think Jade intentionally muted and kicked Inanna on purpose from the start or are you now changing it to "Jade figured out how the system worked and engineered a method to kick maliciously after some trial and error?"
This is a lot of hoop jumping.
Absurdum reductum: Jade mutes Inanna with the desire to unmute soon after. The system kicks her at the unmute without anyone realizing it and people eventually figure it out.
Reduction to absurdity is a rhetorical technique not an argument. You are thinking of Occoms Razor. However, the razor says that the explanation must account for all evidence. It does not, since there are three total mute messages. Your explanation only works if there are only two mute messages contained in the logs.
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Kis Kecheri
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:23:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 23:25:56
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kis Kecheri Then after all this testing to see exactly what would actually happen you still think Jade intentionally muted and kicked Inanna on purpose from the start or are you now changing it to "Jade figured out how the system worked and engineered a method to kick maliciously after some trial and error?"
This is a lot of hoop jumping.
Absurdum reductum: Jade mutes Inanna with the desire to unmute soon after. The system kicks her at the unmute without anyone realizing it and people eventually figure it out.
Reduction to absurdity is a rhetorical technique not an argument. You are thinking of Occoms Razor. However, the razor says that the explanation must account for all evidence. It does not, since there are three total mute messages. Your explanation only works if there are only two mute messages contained in the logs.
It was more a label for my thoughts I was writing then a counter-point reply. Though, now that I think about it, I should have just left it off and stated Occam's Razor.
Tell me Goumindong. How exactly does one reproduce those 3 messages? Wouldn't it be odd to mute, then unmute twice? It sounds far more like a technical error or ignorant fumbling with the system then someone maliciously hovering over the 'kick' button on purpose.
Again, your scenario would have Jade realizing how the system works first through trial and error during the meeting then maliciously abusing the mechanics to kick Inanna on purpose.
If Jade knew what was actually happening you think he would complicate matters by having to explain and fabricate ignorance? For what purpose? |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.10 23:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Tell me Goumindong. How exactly does one reproduce those 3 messages? Wouldn't it be odd to mute, then unmute twice? It sounds far more like a technical error or ignorant fumbling with the system then someone maliciously hovering over the 'kick' button on purpose.
When you mute some you get a mute message. The channel gets a mute message possibly with a purpose.
When you unmute someone that has been muted you kick them from the channel. The channel gets a mute message with no purpose.
At the time of the second "mute" message, Inanna had been kicked from the channel. At the time of the third, she had been kicked for a second time. This is consistent with her telling of the tale.
Not knowing accounts for the first kick(I.E. the second mute), but not the second kick(I.E. the third mute)
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Kis Kecheri
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:03:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 11/06/2008 00:05:19
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Tell me Goumindong. How exactly does one reproduce those 3 messages? Wouldn't it be odd to mute, then unmute twice? It sounds far more like a technical error or ignorant fumbling with the system then someone maliciously hovering over the 'kick' button on purpose.
When you mute some you get a mute message. The channel gets a mute message possibly with a purpose.
When you unmute someone that has been muted you kick them from the channel. The channel gets a mute message with no purpose.
At the time of the second "mute" message, Inanna had been kicked from the channel. At the time of the third, she had been kicked for a second time. This is consistent with her telling of the tale.
Not knowing accounts for the first kick(I.E. the second mute), but not the second kick(I.E. the third mute)
That doesn't make sense from reading the logs. Can you corrolate that scenario to the actual minutes of the meeting?
Are you saying Inanna was muted, unmuted-kicked, reinvited didn't say anything, muted, un-muted kicked, and then reinvited?
I don't see how someone could be kicked twice in a row through the unmuted system without jumping through hoops.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:16:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kis Kecheri Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 11/06/2008 00:05:19
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kis Kecheri
Tell me Goumindong. How exactly does one reproduce those 3 messages? Wouldn't it be odd to mute, then unmute twice? It sounds far more like a technical error or ignorant fumbling with the system then someone maliciously hovering over the 'kick' button on purpose.
When you mute some you get a mute message. The channel gets a mute message possibly with a purpose.
When you unmute someone that has been muted you kick them from the channel. The channel gets a mute message with no purpose.
At the time of the second "mute" message, Inanna had been kicked from the channel. At the time of the third, she had been kicked for a second time. This is consistent with her telling of the tale.
Not knowing accounts for the first kick(I.E. the second mute), but not the second kick(I.E. the third mute)
That doesn't make sense from reading the logs. Can you corrolate that scenario to the actual minutes of the meeting?
Are you saying Inanna was muted, unmuted-kicked, reinvited didn't say anything, muted, un-muted kicked, and then reinvited?
I don't see how someone could be kicked twice in a row through the unmuted system without jumping through hoops.
Look at the minutes and go test it yourself. Its not difficult just create a channel and then fiddle with the settings.
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Trojanman190
Altruism. Malice.
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:19:00 -
[39]
This entire thread clearly shows why you children need parent. Chirriba or Verone or someone with the ability to enforce the rules who has absolutely no say on the council. I agree completely with Adhamhnon.
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JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
You're grasping at straws if you think any amount of silencing a person on that council for any circumstance is acceptable.
Obviously I disagree with you. (I'm disagreeing with a lot of goons today it seems).
really I agree with the player that you quoted. And im not a goon.
Also when a member asks what the disruption they are getting the warning for. the chair is required to explain why.
But not jade. no he has his own agenda to press on.
BTW does everything with revolve around Goon swarm? Are you that tunnel visiond that you cant represent those who your charged?
Everypost and i mean everyone you have to make some sort of GOON remark as to make the post against you invalid.
NEWS FLASH KIDDO! Not everyone in eve is a goon and not all players who post side with you that arent goons. Get the clue Kid and make it fast.
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Cursive
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:58:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Adhamhnon
This could be solved by someone with no personal agenda as a representative conducting the meeting in a neutral fashion.
No such person exists. |
Adhamhnon
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:25:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cursive
Originally by: Adhamhnon
This could be solved by someone with no personal agenda as a representative conducting the meeting in a neutral fashion.
No such person exists.
Really? Chribba comes to mind off the top of my head. Seems a very trustworthy individual, who is completely neutral in the situation. Personally I think I'm fairly neutral in this as well, I think everyone's coming across looking like an idiot. If not a community member, what about a CCP representitive who's sole purpose is to keep the peace. Seems like they'd have an interest in it as well.
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KSUDruid stole my coffee table. :(
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Cursive
Originally by: Adhamhnon
This could be solved by someone with no personal agenda as a representative conducting the meeting in a neutral fashion.
No such person exists.
That's not true i'm sure there are more then a few people who could do such a thing. The real issue is the power of the chair and the rights CCP have given said chair. If you look at Roberts rules of order and how the chair is not supposed to come into play into the discussion at all unless he is there to break a tie in the vote and run the agenda. He is not supposed to set said agend only add the items requested of the members. This is the real issue with what's going on Jade isn't being a Chair he is being a dictator. |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:02:00 -
[44]
Goum, give up.
find something else to troll. You come across as just about anything but sincere.
Jade is chair. Chair has power to moderate. Argue all you like about whether they should be the only one with ops or if a paraphrased vote didn't implicitly mean that. Chair outlined rules for speaking and consequences. Chair enacted those rules. A member of the committee refused to acknowledge the chairs authority to maintain order in the meeting. Sucks to be them, they are wrong.
Should the Chair have absolute power or should they be given guidelines? I'd say guidelines. Who gives the guidelines? CCP.
Issue isn't really more than a waste of time at player level. |
teji
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:59:00 -
[45]
CCP needed a neutral chair the moment they dreamed up this mess. Jade is unable to distance him or herself from the matters that are being discussed. Things degrade as a partial moderator has no power to actually moderate.
In addition Jade believes that this chair position has some sort of god power to mandate things. It doesn't. Sorry...
I would envision a CCP employee who chairs and gives different people the floor to speak. Even though they are somewhat biased it won't be some half crazed madman who has no ability to communicate with people of this reality. |
Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:05:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sapphrine Goum, give up.
find something else to troll. You come across as just about anything but sincere.
Jade is chair. Chair has power to moderate. Argue all you like about whether they should be the only one with ops or if a paraphrased vote didn't implicitly mean that. Chair outlined rules for speaking and consequences. Chair enacted those rules. A member of the committee refused to acknowledge the chairs authority to maintain order in the meeting. Sucks to be them, they are wrong.
Should the Chair have absolute power or should they be given guidelines? I'd say guidelines. Who gives the guidelines? CCP.
Issue isn't really more than a waste of time at player level.
Meeting moderaion has a different traditional meaning to chat channel moderaation. I grant is vague, but it does seem to be clarified with the notion that the committe is democratic.
I would thus argue that no, the mute power isn't implied by it at all. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.19 12:04:00 -
[47]
Peter should be chair - he created the whole thing. ----
GO BLUE!! |
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