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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.11 15:40:00 -
[1]
I mean - its not like we have a "Warp to location" - we have a "warp to 15Km". Obviously there is a reason for that. Collision prevention perhaps? or simply the objects mass prevents closer warping.
Using Bookmarks is certaily clever, but seems to be an exploit to avoid a game "rule" - the rule being that 15Km is how close you can warp to things.
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.05.11 15:50:00 -
[2]
When they stop Gate camping.....they should stop waypointing.
that's right.........they can't
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2004.05.11 15:54:00 -
[3]
better yet........wait till i start selling my copied waypoint files to deep 0.0 space.
hmmmmmmmhow much you think a waypoint file to a deep deep section of 0.0 space would be worth to someone in a battleship.
I'm thinking a million per system waypointed, 40 systems 40 mill
seems like a lot but so isn't travel time spent in a tanked BS 40 jumps out to 0.0
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Jakal
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Posted - 2004.05.11 16:04:00 -
[4]
its easy to fix, just have the gates drift 5-10 KM a week so of you really want insta jumps you would have to keep them current. but that might make for bugs and excess sever load. but only fools expect to catch anybody warping to a gate without a mobile warp disruptor, unless they want to fight.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2004.05.11 16:08:00 -
[5]
Before the mobile disruptors were introduced I would have agreed to a fix but since people now have the potential for nullifying a insta warp (for a price of course) it kinda balances out.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.05.11 16:09:00 -
[6]
The current system is a compromise. It's not there for technical reasons, but to balacne between the needs of PvPers, and the needs of everyone who travels long distances and hates to waste time approaching an empty gate.
Insta-jumps BMs are not impossible and shouldn't be, as they allow people a break on long and repetitve trips (my own from my 0.0 to my empire HQ is this 40+ jumps!). People quit EVE at one point ages ago when a few balance errors (now fixed) made long distance travel tremendously slow and, naturally, boring.
On the other hand, gates are where a lot of PvP takes place, although granted capturable stations and >0.5 belts have added to the mix a bit. Making ALL gates insta-jumps woulda made piracy bloody hindering awkward, and CCP didn't want that either, as some piracy in EVE keeps things interesting.
Even with insta-jump BMs, CCP has compromised though, implementing mobile warp disruptors that can be set up to stop all insta-jumps. So right now with insta jumps you can travel quickly, but it is still possible for a determined foe to block your passage.
BW
 Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.11 17:56:00 -
[7]
It is to a degree the principle of the matter that irks me.
If it IS possible to warp within 100m of a structure, why not present it as a menu option???
It just seems ... wrong to me whenever game designers use a bad user interface as a gameplay element. And the necessity of creating BMs to do insta jumps is nothing intrinsic to our ship control systems - its because of an bad UI design choice.
Stuff like that just breaks the 4th wall - the game looses its immersiveness when OOC elements effect IC behaviour.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2004.05.11 21:51:00 -
[8]
Because the insta jumps require time effort and a bit of thought instead of having everything handed to you on a plate.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Beta Vixen
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Posted - 2004.05.11 21:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Beta Vixen on 11/05/2004 21:57:42
"Insta Jump" bookmarks represent the advantage that people who are local and have invested time and effort have over someone who is coming around for the first time.
Other things being equal, local knowledge trumps evil intent. This is as it should be. As soon as you leave the area of your local knowledge, your advantage disappears.
Sure you can buy a copy of such bookmarks from someone who spent the time to build them. That's like hiring a local pilot to guide you. [And yes, there are sets of "ij" bookmarks that aren't as good as they ought to be and there's maybe a set or three that end up somewhere other than the next gate -- those are risks you take when you buy ij bookmarks instead of build your own.]
The 15km warp to provides an opportunity for the pirates ... that's ok. What burns me is that I can't declare vendetta on someone who ganked me and chase his xxxx all over the system with my hired avengers just because CCP decreed that CONCORD's memory of such events is fairly short lived.
Piracy should be just as risky as traveling "blind". 
****
I'm free! I'm free!!
****
Imagination comes before Accomplishment.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.05.11 22:10:00 -
[10]
Thats a nice theory - but compeltely invalid given the structure of the game.
The 15km issue is a UI artifact, NOT a in-game skill artifact - given the fact that ships can be exit warp almost "on-target" by doing the bookmark exploit.
IF warp accuracy WAS an in-game skill I would expect:
1. A randomizer applied to warp exits so that when a ship exits warp it does so *somewhere* randomly in a 20km bubble around the chosen exit (and might randomly exit close enough to the gate for an instant jump).
1. Navigation related skills to tighten up warp exits - each level of skill training would reduce jump randomness by 2km.
Then to allow for "route" knowledge - a class of navigation skills that can be learnt by right clicking on any gate and selecting "Train Jump skill" - that would train a jump skill for that gate and that gate only. Each level here increases jump accuracy by 20%.
*NOW* you have a system that is consistent with the skill model present in the game.
Without such a system in place - the inability to choose an arbitrary warp exit distance is a contrived limitation of the UI, not a "real" limitation of the physics of the game.
It might be good from a balance perspective. That I dont deny. What I object to is the metagaming and resulting loss of immersion that results.
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Mr nStuff
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Posted - 2004.05.11 22:41:00 -
[11]
it's not an exploit. If you don't like it, setup a few MobileWarpDisrupters. That will stop a ship way before it reaches it's insta-jump distance.
5 R&D Agents, 10months, Zero BPO Offers..
Onboard navigational [Planetary Avoidance] computer.
My account will be suspended at the end of the current play period.
Expires on 19. September 2004 |
Angry Dan
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Posted - 2004.05.12 02:15:00 -
[12]
Mr Slaughtermonkie unhappy he can'y have his lauttle slaughterfest today? ahhh diduums.
Seriously. I have invested time and effort in improving my navigation data, so it's better than the published data, thus enabling me to navigate better than you can.
Are you saying that individual skill is a exploit now?
Thats nice.
Lets put it this way. If you have a problem with people running [strikethrough]spawn camps [/strikethrough]blockades, maybe you shouldn't have let those people set up those bookmarks. Bookmarks are there for a reason. The reason is so I can make my navigation better.
There is no rule saying how close you can warp to things. 15Km is a arbitary limit chosen by the UI designer. It is not a rule. Otherwise, why would it have been changed around a bit to allow a good balance, such as the excellent balance that we have now.
++++++++++++++++++++
CEO of the Space Munchkins.
Fear my kneepads of allure!
Huzzah Federation Foreign Minister - Ask about our tasty NAP's - Now in protein delicacy and cow flavour!
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2004.05.12 14:53:00 -
[13]
Aso one difference with insta jumps is that they only work right if you approach it from a certain direction i.e. typically the sg you just jumped through.
If you are forced to run to a plant and dont have extra insta jumps setup for different apporaches your stuck becuase chances are you insta jump bookmark will bring you out of warp further from the gate.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
D3vastator
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Posted - 2004.05.12 16:04:00 -
[14]
I agree with the original poster....somewhat. I'm a n00b & have never camped a gate....but effective blockading would be a natural part of this universe, if allowed to evolve w/out CCP's help. 15km away is way too far, considering there is nearly 0 randomness to the warping process. I think that BMs represent the idea of a pilot honing his knowledge of a particular gate/route & utilizing that knowledge for his advantage. However, I think it is a detriment to the realism & gameplay to allow a player to warp into the middle of a station. I think Each gate & station should have a Mobile Warp Disruptor "built-in" that will drop a ship 5km from it's outter collision radius. This would allow a blockade to get a few shots off @ a fast ship, or create a battle with a slow one. I doubt that many would argue about the realism of this. I do not believe this would do anything but enhance the gameplay.
Imagine it, you would be able to fire at the ships that have bookmarks for 2.5 km of travel b4 they disappeared. Scouts would easily slip by. That would be no problem. Pilots without BMs (aka. advanced knowledge of the route), should have an option to come out of warp 10km from the gate, having to travel 7.5km to jump. This would not create any great & horrific imbalance. If you can't kill it in a 7.5km traverse, then you shouldn't get an extra 5km to do it in....that just makes travel silly. I couldn't take a non-bookmarked Battle-Moa into 0.3 space without this being a possible problem...there's too many ppl willing to launch missiles & die to let their friends loot you. Not to mention the 15km trip of hell for an Indy hauling precious goods. I prefer to play the game than to spend 3 days creating a set of bookmarks so that I can have an advantage over somebody else. I would prefer that the 0km with BM or 15km without BM gap would be closed a tad. Perhaps to my proposed 5km with BM & 10km withought idea.
If CCP would give us a better scanner, gate camping wouldn't be needed at all, although it would still be easier. We should be able to, with a 60 second auto-scan, determine where our prey is & then warp to within a specified distance of their scanned location. This would be consistant with all Space Sci-Fi I have ever seen or played....except of course, the Hillbilly Station Wagon Sci-Fi...such as Star Wars...which I just consider to be Fi...there's really very little Sci involved.
What do you guys think? Please state whether you're a ganker/pirate or a traveller most of the time.
-This has been another (PLEASE VOTE: Good Idea, Pointless Brainstorm or Brainfart) from D3.
"Why put off 'til tomorrow what you can put off 'til next week?" |
Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.12 16:53:00 -
[15]
Insta dock and jump WILL ruin the game..
I have seen it used by pirats to get away when things get to hot.. Thats simple exploiting if you ask me.
The fix for this would be easy: Just do a check to see if the warp exit point is 15km from any bigger object.. If not, do a shooter or longer warp, or change direction a bit.
Problem fixed.
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Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
Malvada
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Posted - 2004.05.12 17:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Drakxter
Insta dock and jump WILL ruin the game..
I have seen it used by pirats to get away when things get to hot.. Thats simple exploiting if you ask me.
The fix for this would be easy: Just do a check to see if the warp exit point is 15km from any bigger object.. If not, do a shooter or longer warp, or change direction a bit.
Problem fixed.
oh, so when a pirate uses it to escape retribution, it's an exploit. but when people use it to sneak by pirate blockades, it's players being "clever and smart".
there is equipment in the game already to prevent insta-anything bookmarks working like the pilots using them want them to. what's the problem here?
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Drakxter
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Posted - 2004.05.12 17:33:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Drakxter on 12/05/2004 17:35:29
Originally by: Malvada
oh, so when a pirate uses it to escape retribution, it's an exploit. but when people use it to sneak by pirate blockades, it's players being "clever and smart".
No, thats not clever and smart if you ask me, thats cheating.
Quote:
there is equipment in the game already to prevent insta-anything bookmarks working like the pilots using them want them to. what's the problem here?
Thats not a good reason to allow insta jumps/docks.
Now, as long as CCP does not say anything on this matter (I guess they dont want to loose users...  ), I wont blame anyone for using it.
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Most tired of thing atm:
- Mods on the forum saying: "Please use the bug report page to submit bugs, the forum is not the place to post them." and then closing a topic. |
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