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Elders, shiney! - what's going on with the Minmatar storyline, CCP?

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Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 22:42:00 - [1] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 14/06/2008 22:54:15 Originally by: Garreck It's about how poor the introduction of this new plot is. I have to agree with the Amarr players who feel like this. The Minmatar DT storyline was awesome to begin with. There was true unity between tribes - Thukker, Republic, even some Ammatar attacking Jarizza together to save the Starkmanir. The Matari Fleet on Sarum Prime actually had me drinking sparkling wine in RL while in a DT pub meeting. I felt all those things, because they were based on stuff that has been there in the game, has been talked about, I have interacted with. I was really looking forward to seeing who exactly had organized it - Midular? Shakor? Both of them? Neither of them? Are they alive? Were Defiants behind it? Is Fleet plausible deniability finally dropped? Were Defiants the governments secret tool after all, all the time? How screwed we actually are, as loyalists? In short, I was really looking forward to see how the pieces we have interacted with before would fit together. A lot of lovely possibilities there - it could have gone in several directions, but all of them would have been great, and given us a twist on the established situation. Then. "Oh, it was Elders. All rejoice!" WTF? We do not even know what it means that they are 'Elders'. Are they the original dudes mentioned in PF (but never since in e.g. news or gameplay), who are turned zombie together with Jamyl? Their descendants? Some other dudes with some kind of similar mystical powers - which we also know nothing of? And yet we are expected to believe that our people are out on the streets celebrating simply after hearing the word. What do they know that we don't? It is still at this point possible that the storyline will prove that there are no Elders with a capital E involved, it was just a report that actually referred to our current good leaders, but I am not holding my breath. After the "Jamyl is an Empress, and so say we all" I fully expect the Minmatar to go "oo! shiney! Elders! Here, have this Republic, we are not really using it anymore." But, CCP, we don't, most of us who really care about your storylines, want any of this. We do not want a major epic storyline that explains it all. We do not want mystical dudes who lead simply because they are So Awesome. We do not want ancients and super-races and whatnnot whose eternal struggle for power explains away the politics of our Empires. Such things could fit a space opera tv series or even into a heavily quest based MMOG - or indeed, a pulp sf novel - but they do not fit into a universe, they do not fit into our sandbox EVE. We want back our nittygritty world, where terrorists and tribal chiefs and emperors and murderers are equally human, where things interact with each other in unpredictable ways instead of by someone pulling all the strings, where it really is unclear who a Good <Insert Race Here>ian should follow, where there are not only shades of grey but also so many colors you cannot count them, where not everything is tied into the same metaplot, where established NPCs make us feel that every individual in the world counts, instead of being brushed aside by Awesome Dudes. Pls? Let there not be shiney Elders... -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mori Felding Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 22:52:00 - [2] Edited by: Mori Felding on 14/06/2008 22:52:14 I wanted to say a whole lot, but I kinda dislike repetition and all the points were already mentioned, so I'll just say yeah. No elders please.. pretty please. ___ Memento Mori
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 22:59:00 - [3] Signed. The evening before the EA DT had the most awesome RP for me in a long time. We are Republic loyalists. Just before the DT, the prime minister had dissolved parliament and called for re-elections. Then suddenly, the government was not reachable anymore. What? Blackout? Our characters were confused and lost, in corp, alliance and in various convos, they tried to re-assure each other that things will go well again, they gave strength and courage to each other... It was awesome. Really. Absolutely awesome. Then, the DT came. Newspieces hit. It was great. WHAAAT?! A minmatar fleet attacking the Empire?! The feeling was just awesome. The uncertainty, the lack of leadership, the helplessness of the characters - it was clear that the Empire would Strike Back (sorry), that this was just a temporary thing, but how well would it go? The best downtime, ever. I told others on OOC channels: CCP has so many possible ways to solve this, and all of them are awesome! And then the Elders were mentioned. That basically killed the suspension of disbelief for me. "The who?" - what, why Elders? Thousands of possible plot lines just got replaced by a deus ex machina. What saved it slightly for me was that they were intrdocued by news reports with this "oh, just a rumor" - ok, cool, some big PR gimmick to draw away attention from whoever did this (the Republic?). But it left a sour taste. And then all the news reports just talked about "the Elder Fleet." I still hope it's just a PR thing. There are no Elders ex Machina. A little hope, but hope nontheless. Can we please keep the dark, ugly and mundane universe that we all love?
SCSPOOK 16th Interspacial Dynasty The 11th Hour	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:03:00 - [4] I just want some proper Aliens to show up somewhere. Green bodies, fangs and a sloppy hissy lisp when they speak. Can we get some Aliens please.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:21:00 - [5] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Such things could fit a space opera tv series or even into a heavily quest based MMOG - or indeed, a pulp sf novel - but they do not fit into a universe, they do not fit into our sandbox EVE. You do realize that there's this novel called Empyrean Age, which is tied to the events that are happening now in the EVE universe? Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:24:00 - [6] Originally by: Tamia Clant Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Such things could fit a space opera tv series or even into a heavily quest based MMOG - or indeed, a pulp sf novel - but they do not fit into a universe, they do not fit into our sandbox EVE. You do realize that there's this novel called Empyrean Age, which is tied to the events that are happening now in the EVE universe? I think that was her point.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:35:00 - [7] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 14/06/2008 23:38:40 Yes, that was indeed my point, or one of them. I know there is a novel - and indeed this stuff reads like written for a novel. But what works for a novel does not necessarily work for an open-ended universe. Especially a big epic metaplot that explains everything, very clear Awesome Dudes, and clear black/white, all things that can work very well for a novel, run the risk of making a world too simplistic for colorful, long-term, sandbox-like play. EVE is even more tricky in that sense than a more strongly quest-based MMOG, where you can have every character following the same quest story and pretending they are the only one. That just does not work if you want to build a universe. For a universe, you need more shades of greys and even different colors and simply a lot of unclear stuff going on at the same time, that people can debate and interact with. Well, for a good universe, anyway. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 14/06/2008 23:37:20 My opinion is that posts like this belong in the assembly hall, then one can see a quantitative definition of 'we' from your post, Elsebeth. Edit: and hell, I'm interested to find out what the Ammatar Fleet's (and Amarr chaps) reaction to the Consulate Governor's treacherous call to defection is, but I'm happy to wait and form my own opinions for the meantime! San Matari Official forums
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:36:00 - [9] Good point, Scagga. Maybe if mods agree they will move it. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Fausto Rojas	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:38:00 - [10] Else had hit the nail. I had been having a lot of trouble immersing in the RP world here in EVE and then the DT news kept me glued to my screen, it really motivated me to get involved. The tension was rising, the warmongers, the pacifist, the government issues... it was all so cool! and then, some elders show up. Epic Fail. Like Else mentioned, Elders just remove all sort of inner conflicts the players could realistically developed around a "Right Path" and replaced it with some epic figure that now dictates THE path. So, what if I don't like the path eh? with some sort of Demigods behind it, so awesome that now all matari cheer them; where would that leave my character? Don't let it stay that way. Originally by: Tamia Clant Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Stuff You do realize that there's this novel called Empyrean Age, which is tied to the events that are happening now in the EVE universe? And if they did it to sell a book, they will not get my money. Neu

Neu Bastian	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:39:00 - [11] That was me, damn this alt sneaking everywhere! Neu
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:40:00 - [12] I can't RP because of what you did !!! WAH!!!!!! No longer can I be a pod pilot in a spaceship!!!!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:41:00 - [13] Don't be silly, of course we can still RP and will still RP. But it could be so much better than it now looks like. :) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Cassiuss Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:44:00 - [14] I down with the minmatar in this thread, no elders. As for the groon, GTFO dirty ***llante.
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:50:00 - [15] No, I'm not in Groon, I'm in BTLS. I think you can see that. I guess you're RPing a BoB member of importance? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:54:00 - [16] Originally by: An Anarchyyt No, I'm not in Groon, I'm in BTLS. I think you can see that. I guess you're RPing a BoB member of importance? Bah, just mention you probably bought his mother from a slave dealer...usually does the trick with the dirty tribals. San Matari Official forums
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:55:00 - [17] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 14/06/2008 23:55:38 Hey! Stop RPing in my OOC thread, or at least comment the OP while you are at it. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:07:00 - [18] Edited by: Irongut on 15/06/2008 00:09:22 I think the problems the RP community are having with recent events are all due to the book. The answers you're looking for will be in the book so CCP can't tell you too much in the news because it will spoil the book. But if they don't publish it online and you don't buy the book then you won't get your answers. It's a catch 22 situation really. I do hope they will explain some of it though for those of us who can't or won't buy the book for whatever reasons. - Join Frontal Impact Racing Team & feel the speed!
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Irongut I think the problems the RP community are having with recent events are all due to the book. The answers you're looking for will be in the book so CCP can't tell you too much in the news because it will spoil the book. But if they don't publish it online and you don't buy the book then you won't get your answers. It's a catch 22 situation really. The problem for some of us is not that we do not know some things, but that we are afraid that the book will explain things in a specific way - a way we do not see our EVE universe. As Else said, the big players behind it all, the ancient Awesome Guys coming out of the darkness to rule... It's not that we are all angry because no one tells us what's going on - I, and many with me, actually enjoy the uncertainty - it's that we see the story going into a certain direction, and we do not like that direction at all. Hence the hope that we are wrong with our panic on where the story is going.
White Ronin Screenout	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:53:00 - [20] For god's sake why aRe YOu FOLLOWING ME!?

Uilliam Nebel 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:13:00 - [21] I just finished reading Theodicy, and while I don't want to say Mr. Gonzales is a bad writer, I do have to say that I did not care for the general story line. And I don't think a majority of the Eve role-players will be overwhelmingly satisfied with the novel as it will be an extension of that storyline. Actually, to be honest, I see a shadow of White Wolf style plot line building here. Which is generally fine for a passive experience, or table top role-playing where another human can incorporate that into a player's experience of the material. But it completely breaks immersion factor for an involved media like Eve. Secret super powerful types like the Order / Enheduanni whom control and manipulate every last detail of the world from the shadows are not that intriguing in the long run. Sure they are mysterious, but soon the novelty fades and the mystery feels more like intentional mis-direction and obfuscation contrived if for no other purpose but to keep a story line going with no real resolution or explanation. Yes, they mention how the Enheduanni look to manipulate the races so 'they will willingly accept them' through any means. But even if they are a supra-human species, wouldn't they be bored as hell with the lesser humans of the four Empires? This would be like me wasting the days away trying to manipulate an ant colony the way I'd like. Sure I could, but there is so much more about me that I am free to do and that is more interesting. And I'd imagine, a supra-intellect free to roam the boundless heavens of space, through teleporting, like the Enheduanni are said to be capable of, would have more to do as well. I am guessing I am going to be left very disappointed by the Empyrean Age novel's story, because it will be more of the same from Theodicy. A secretive group is looking to control all of the citizens of new Eden from the shadows. And we are powerless to stop them as they act through their sleeper agents, whom have a nanotechnology that makes metal balls appear in their stomachs. And it is really their control, and manipulation over all the Empires of Eve that is the actual cause of the war. The Empires did not make the war themselves, but were manipulated to it so that things would get so bad, people would accept the Enheduanni. Which could make for a fine story, however there is one glaringly bad consequence of it. It completely invalidates a lot of what people, especially role-players build their character on. To have it turn out that they are not fighting a war over the differences of what they believe in, and have had happened to them, that they come to realize it was all a lie, and some supra-human species science experiment, cheapens a lot of that. It makes it seem the character never really had any choice, and might as well just been a mindless puppet. It diminishes the sense of their being free will, a crucial aspect of the immersion factor in a interactive media, because it is all the manipulation of some unseen force that individuals are powerless to stop anyway. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Armoured C Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:45:00 - [22] Originally by: White Ronin For god's sake why aRe YOu FOLLOWING ME!? because you owe me isk ? caldari: worst that eating your own face
Shern Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:47:00 - [23] I'm not especially keen about having these Elder people turn up. It does seem a bit..odd. Hopefully all will be revealed in due course ! (in the book or otherwise). But it would be a shame if everything were explained by secret all powerful cults.
Drauqhk Shathet Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.15 03:20:00 - [24] There is no way to undo what has been done. I suggest that we nominate some poor souls to force themselves through the novel on behalf of the rest of us, then post in the forums what we need to know to get on with reasonable RP. In a game where reputation and history are everything CCP has a lot to recover. Maybe we could figure out a way to prevent such problems for everyone in the future; shall we petition for TonyG to be sacked? Where do I sign? Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Zimarla Gradient	Posted - 2008.06.15 03:22:00 - [25] What bothers me is not even the roleplaying aspect. I mean, sure, I'm a roleplayer, and that's how I enjoy playing, but I could probably find a way to work around this stuff in character. No, what bothers me is that it comes across like a bad Star Trek episode. The situation is grim, the captain and crew is lucky enough just to keep surviving. Then, because the plot must be resolved within the next 60 minutes, a super-awesome, never-seen-before-or-since gizmo or magic alien saves everyone. EVE story is an ongoing struggle. Unlike a TV show, it doesn't need a resolution within the next 60 minutes for everyone to feel satisfied. (And unlike Star Trek, the Enheduanni don't have the personality of Q.) It needs fuel to keep the conflict going, yes, but it doesn't need the deus ex machina, at least not until the story is truly coming to a climax and ending. Is that what this is? Is the EVE story coming to an end? I certainly hope not, but I think that's what everyone is really worried about. It feels like the end of a story, and it's an end the players didn't get to have a say about.
Segge Bolled Rainy Day Industries	Posted - 2008.06.15 05:13:00 - [26] Edited by: Segge Bolled on 15/06/2008 05:16:04 Originally by: Zimarla It feels like the end of a story, and it's an end the players didn't get to have a say about. Well unfortunately for you all, this is not a Choose Your Own Adventure novel. FW/EA has only just begun in EVE and there has been a whole barrage of news items and at least one Chronicle (plus two very nice teaser clips) already to set the scene and yet you're all crying foul even as the curtain rises on the stage ... Have the decency to give it a chance to do more than begin
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:30:00 - [27] Edited by: MotherMoon on 15/06/2008 06:32:02 Originally by: Arkady Sadik Signed. The evening before the EA DT had the most awesome RP for me in a long time. We are Republic loyalists. Just before the DT, the prime minister had dissolved parliament and called for re-elections. Then suddenly, the government was not reachable anymore. What? Blackout? Our characters were confused and lost, in corp, alliance and in various convos, they tried to re-assure each other that things will go well again, they gave strength and courage to each other... It was awesome. Really. Absolutely awesome. Then, the DT came. Newspieces hit. It was great. WHAAAT?! A minmatar fleet attacking the Empire?! The feeling was just awesome. The uncertainty, the lack of leadership, the helplessness of the characters - it was clear that the Empire would Strike Back (sorry), that this was just a temporary thing, but how well would it go? The best downtime, ever. I told others on OOC channels: CCP has so many possible ways to solve this, and all of them are awesome! And then the Elders were mentioned. That basically killed the suspension of disbelief for me. "The who?" - what, why Elders? Thousands of possible plot lines just got replaced by a deus ex machina. What saved it slightly for me was that they were intrdocued by news reports with this "oh, just a rumor" - ok, cool, some big PR gimmick to draw away attention from whoever did this (the Republic?). But it left a sour taste. And then all the news reports just talked about "the Elder Fleet." I still hope it's just a PR thing. There are no Elders ex Machina. A little hope, but hope nontheless. Can we please keep the dark, ugly and mundane universe that we all love? you FAIL as a rolepayer the elders were who started the war on ammar the 1st time they freed the 1st slaves. the elders of each planet where disbanded or killed to start the republic which had many members put in place by the ammar in trade for peace. you are a sad Roleplayer read the backstory. The Thukker tribe has been lead by an elder for the past 5 years. I mean really what poor RP to not even know the name of your true leaders. it's like someone in england not know what the word king meant. There was a reason the civillians of matar were taking the to street our true leaders have come back for us.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:52:00 - [28] Edited by: MotherMoon on 15/06/2008 06:59:26 Quote: What do you mean? The Elders were dead before the Matari started the revolt in Theodicy. It was a plot by the Enheduanni to start a war to curb Amarr's growth beyond their plans. All the Elders were killed on a mining station, and the Enheduanni had it set up to look like the Amarr did it. (Those who saw it from the Matari rescue team were meant to tell the Matari leadership that the Amarr did it. And also the Amarr were meant to see that Gallentee pilot, and think she killed that Amarrian Apostle and those other priest.) The Revolt came about from the Jove delivering the caches of Gallente planet side weaponry to captive after disposing of the slaves usual guards. The only meeting of the Elders I know of is when they were trying to unite the Matari as one tribe, according to the Enheduanni plan, which was put off track when the Amarr bombarded the planet they were meeting on, and they were captured. Which was why the Enheduanni activated their sleep agent at the beginning of the Novella. As for the other things, were did you read those? Sorry, I'm just wondering if there is a inconsistency between the events in Theodicy, and other back story bits. right but two of them lived. I for am holding out that CCP isn't having more than these two elders in the story line. The elder leading the thukker tribe and the other whatever his story was. Also OMG I fail at RP I forgot about some of that. However this does nothing unless I post some backstory bits. I'm going to bed but note I know for a FACT that 2 elders where alive. So if CCP makes it more than 2 they might be messing with something... also as far as the novel goes CCP are making the novel happen in real time with the game so they better have thought it through.
Uilliam Nebel 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:58:00 - [29] Originally by: MotherMoon right but two of them lived. I for am holding out that CCP isn't having more than these two elders in the story line. The elder leading the thukker tribe and the other whatever his story was But in Theodicy, the Jove / Matari soldiers specifically see the body of three of the Elders they recognize the faces of. "VladÆs heart sank as he recognized the decomposing faces of the Nefantar, Starkmanir, and Thukker tribe Elders." Page 125 of the PDF. So, do new Elders come along then? / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:00:00 - [30] Edited by: MotherMoon on 15/06/2008 07:06:28 Originally by: Uilliam Nebel Originally by: MotherMoon right but two of them lived. I for am holding out that CCP isn't having more than these two elders in the story line. The elder leading the thukker tribe and the other whatever his story was But in Theodicy, the Jove / Matari soldiers specifically see the body of three of the Elders they recognize the faces of. "VladÆs heart sank as he recognized the decomposing faces of the Nefantar, Starkmanir, and Thukker tribe Elders." Page 125 of the PDF. So, do new Elders come along then? hmm you have a point... damn it can someone dig up the guy who has been running the thukker tribe? also this posthttp://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=470628 aren't you calling out the elders for help in this post?



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