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Lynn Suriyawong	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:14:00 - [1] I've recently gotten into trading a particular item, and something I've noticed has made me wonder what's going on. I've been trading in a particular item for about a week now, and I have one primary competitor. There are others who enter the market from time to time, but I usually just buy them up if their price drops too low. But this one guy has an order that he seems to just happen to look at within a few minutes of me changing my price to undercut him. For instance, this morning I logged on to see that I had been undercut by 3 people during the night, with my main competition with the lowest price (by 1/100th of an isk, as always). However, the orders were all 7 hours old, with his changing within minutes of the next lowest. So, I lower my price to just under his, and less than 3 minutes later, his price is once again adjusted to beat mine. Now, I can understand this happening in markets where there are a lot of traders that are looking at the market at all times of the day, but for this item, it really is just he and I (and it's not all that particularly profitable). How is it that he just happens to look at the order within minutes of anyone undercutting him, 24/7? Once or twice is a coincidence, but every single time I adjust it, several times a day, over the course of a week? That just seems rather odd to me. Is there a plausible explanation for this?
Trader Axim	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:21:00 - [2] yes, he works in a programmer or IT job and has a 2nd monitor with eve running constantly. come 5 o clock, he comes home and does the same thing
Taikun	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:21:00 - [3] He/she has added you to their friends list. Watched you long enough to know your hours of play. Simply wait until you log in... sees it and knows you are about to change your prices. It is quite simply knowing your competition. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Finedele Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:24:00 - [4] as i encountered similar "incidents" i hope that there comes anytime a limit of how often you can change your orders. it is simply annoying, i am buying some stuff in a rather low fluctuated system and most of the time i am there changing prices, get myself some food, looking again, and oh well, again overpriced by 1 isk cent. it is boring and i think it also keeps many people out of the traderlife
Taikun	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:27:00 - [5] Edited by: Taikun on 17/06/2008 19:28:59 Originally by: Finedele it is simply annoying, i am buying some stuff in a rather low fluctuated system and most of the time i am there changing prices, get myself some food, looking again, and oh well, again overpriced by 1 isk cent. I can only assume the "food" to which you refer is cheese. This is because we already know you like to whine and cheese goes very well with that on a hot Sunday afternoon. I use the 0.01 isk increment to great effect when I see my competition log off. To hell with my competion. I WANT them out of "traderlife". Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Finedele as i encountered similar "incidents" i hope that there comes anytime a limit of how often you can change your orders. it is simply annoying, i am buying some stuff in a rather low fluctuated system and most of the time i am there changing prices, get myself some food, looking again, and oh well, again overpriced by 1 isk cent. it is boring and i think it also keeps many people out of the traderlife Sometimes the .01 game can be used to your advantage and create a tumble effect to crash prices on the right items. Trade smarter, not harder.
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.17 20:48:00 - [7] Edited by: Ulstan on 17/06/2008 20:49:43 Sell an item to that guy. Add him to your friends list. There you go :) Now you can see when he is online and offline. He has to sleep sometime. If you suspect a bot, put up a low order at a ridiculously bad price and see if he jumps for it.
Nonym Ous Ad Astra Vexillum Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 20:53:00 - [8] If it's a bot, chances are it's programmed with a minimum price that it won't go below. Chances are it's even programmed to simply buy up anything which is posted below that price. So I'd be careful testing this hypothesis. If you do, put up a sale order for only 1 unit at the low price and see what happens.
Richard Kitan United Space Republic Research	Posted - 2008.06.17 21:25:00 - [9] Originally by: Trader Axim yes, he works in a programmer or IT job and has a 2nd monitor with eve running constantly. come 5 o clock, he comes home and does the same thing I love my job. Can't really PvP from work, but I can fiddle with all my orders so when I get home I have some nice iskies to spend on PvP :) (While I am a pretty anal undercutter, I am not the undercutter mentioned in the OP) -- Richard Kitan Builder of Stuff
Pacific Theme	Posted - 2008.06.18 01:24:00 - [10] Market bots are entirely possible, but if the item isn't profitable and you can't seem to get an edge why not move on if it's frustrating you too much? Sometimes when I'm faced with people constantly undercutting me I just crash the price, especially if they're trying to sell high volume. I'm usually well diversified and can stand to lose a few million on an item that's busy with sellers but not with buyers. Keep some of an item spare and undercut yourself after you try to crash it with a new order. If they follow suit chances are it'll hold and everyone's worse off. It's fun to picture them cringe :) I've been doing this with Hardwiring lately as the prices continue to tank thanks to what I assume is the cause of L5 missions.
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.06.18 02:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Lynn Suriyawong I've recently gotten into trading a particular item... This is your problem right here.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.18 08:31:00 - [12] If there are bots around, my sell and buy orders would show one char alot. This isn't really the case in my stats for about 10 months now. If there is a bot using more chars, then offcourse I don't see it. But in your case you say it's one guy, and I find it rather odd a bot would watch only one item. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Piscus Milliways Invest	Posted - 2008.06.18 11:00:00 - [13] Edited by: Piscus on 18/06/2008 11:02:53 Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 17/06/2008 19:28:59 Originally by: Finedele it is simply annoying, i am buying some stuff in a rather low fluctuated system and most of the time i am there changing prices, get myself some food, looking again, and oh well, again overpriced by 1 isk cent. I can only assume the "food" to which you refer is cheese. This is because we already know you like to whine and cheese goes very well with that on a hot Sunday afternoon. Taikun This ~Piscus -CEO Milliways Invest
Roguehalo RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2008.06.18 11:02:00 - [14] Gotta love being a trader. Must be the only profession where all your enemies are on your friends list
Taikun	Posted - 2008.06.18 11:19:00 - [15] Edited by: Taikun on 18/06/2008 11:21:18 Originally by: Roguehalo Gotta love being a trader. Must be the only profession where all your enemies are on your friends list Not so. I have entire corps on my friends list in their own folders. I go to their killboards to update names I am missing. Why do I do this? Easier to see when they are all online doing something neferious. You can quickly see if their main FCs and directors are online and running a gang etc. You quickly can learn their habits. Also who they fight with, and the SERIOUS hardcore threats versus the lightweights who tag along but never lead gangs. How this relates to the market? Well... ever had to run a freighter solo thru enemy space on a regular basis? It pays to know what they are doing at any given moment. In fact, my friends list is rarely used for it intended purpose. I rely on TS, and in game channels to advise me of such friendly matters. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Sarah Tuttle Plato Academy	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:26:00 - [16] My husband John and I are traders. We check the markets often and adjust our buy orders. We're able to do it often because we're retired and Eve is our way of having fun. John will actually get up in the middle of the night to do a quick adjustment. I'm not that addicted.... yet! Sarah Tuttle My Eve Site
Prodigal New Genesis Project	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:04:00 - [17] Bah - I still say you should be able to see who is undercutting you without having to buy a unit of their item. Only chumps hide behind the market escrow - lets see some REAL market pvp and reveal those traders !!! Cheers,
Anub1s Return of the Anub1s	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Sarah Tuttle My husband John and I are traders. We check the markets often and adjust our buy orders. We're able to do it often because we're retired and Eve is our way of having fun. John will actually get up in the middle of the night to do a quick adjustment. I'm not that addicted.... yet!
Through Actions Weapons Grade Industries	Posted - 2008.06.18 19:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Sarah Tuttle My husband John and I are traders. We check the markets often and adjust our buy orders. We're able to do it often because we're retired and Eve is our way of having fun. John will actually get up in the middle of the night to do a quick adjustment. I'm not that addicted.... yet! Wow, you just blew away the MMO demographic.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.06.18 19:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Sarah Tuttle My husband John and I are traders. We check the markets often and adjust our buy orders. We're able to do it often because we're retired and Eve is our way of having fun. John will actually get up in the middle of the night to do a quick adjustment. I'm not that addicted.... yet! Awww this is so bloody sweet my teeth are hurting!
Sarah Tuttle Plato Academy	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:23:00 - [21] You guys don't understand the long history that is here. We married almost 33 years ago when we were both 18. (We met, two weeks later John proposed, and three weeks after that we were married.) At that time John was playing table top wargames and was a D&D game master. I resented the time he spent away from me playing games. I considered it the other woman in his life. When computers came along he gave up the boxed games and started playing computer games. I still wasn't interested for years, then I realized that I was fighting something I couldn't control. Instead of beating him up for having a hobby and making myself mad at him in the process I thought it might be better to join him. We started playing playing together when WOW came out. In August of 2005 John discovered Eve. When I got tired of WOW I joined him in Eve. I'm not into the combat aspect of the game, but I love marketing, mining and industrialism so I got hooked. The point is, when you're married and you can't beat your husband, join him. LOL Sarah Tuttle My Eve Site
Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.18 21:02:00 - [22] Can you come and tell my wife that
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.06.18 21:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Sarah Tuttle You guys don't understand the long history that is here. We married almost 33 years ago when we were both 18. (We met, two weeks later John proposed, and three weeks after that we were married.) At that time John was playing table top wargames and was a D&D game master. I resented the time he spent away from me playing games. I considered it the other woman in his life. When computers came along he gave up the boxed games and started playing computer games. I still wasn't interested for years, then I realized that I was fighting something I couldn't control. Instead of beating him up for having a hobby and making myself mad at him in the process I thought it might be better to join him. We started playing playing together when WOW came out. In August of 2005 John discovered Eve. When I got tired of WOW I joined him in Eve. I'm not into the combat aspect of the game, but I love marketing, mining and industrialism so I got hooked. The point is, when you're married and you can't beat your husband, join him. LOL Yea, could you tell my Sig Other that, cause, well the EVE suffers unimaginable slurs when I mention it.
Allwix	Posted - 2008.06.18 22:56:00 - [24] tell mine too plz.
Tyndmyr	Posted - 2008.06.19 02:19:00 - [25] New money making opportunity right here...hell, I'd be a customer.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.19 07:48:00 - [26] 51 years old and retired? (18 + 33) What country is this? Eden? ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
John Holt Plato Academy	Posted - 2008.06.19 10:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Confuzer 51 years old and retired? (18 + 33) What country is this? Eden? I see that the wife is telling our life's story... I might as well join in. I had to retire early due to health reasons... a brain tumor that thankfully wasn't malignant and was treatable with the gamma knife. I retired from preaching, and I'm a published author. John Holt My Personal Eve Site
SoleDeo Gloria Mission Runners Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.19 11:19:00 - [28] John, You sound like a man that has a lot to be thankful for and knows Who to thank! Warm Regards My EVE Online Screen Captures Blog
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.06.19 11:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Finedele as i encountered similar "incidents" i hope that there comes anytime a limit of how often you can change your orders. it is simply annoying, i am buying some stuff in a rather low fluctuated system and most of the time i am there changing prices, get myself some food, looking again, and oh well, again overpriced by 1 isk cent. it is boring and i think it also keeps many people out of the traderlife No they won't be changing game mechanics just because you are annoyed by them. That would be like someone else asking CCP to make ships respawn after destruction because it is "annoying" to have to buy and refit a new one. I also don't understand why so many people complain about the .01 isk price changes so much. Would it make you feel better if i undercut you by 10 isk or 100 isk? Either way, i am going to change prices on you and you are going to have to keep up or get out.
Shintai Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.06.19 13:39:00 - [30] There are macrobots around to fix the market. Also why Jita lags insanely at times. Its quite sad. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Jaeger Orlofsson VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.21 08:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Jinx Barker Yea, could you tell my Sig Other that, cause, well the EVE suffers unimaginable slurs when I mention it. I told my wife I wanted to call our first child 'Evie'. Insta-vetoed.
Tyndmyr	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Finedele as i encountered similar "incidents" i hope that there comes anytime a limit of how often you can change your orders. it is simply annoying, i am buying some stuff in a rather low fluctuated system and most of the time i am there changing prices, get myself some food, looking again, and oh well, again overpriced by 1 isk cent. it is boring and i think it also keeps many people out of the traderlife Technically, there is a five min delay... but honestly, if it annoys you(as it does me), just dont play the .01 isk game. Find items/areas that are undertraded, drop by significant enough amounts to lessen the competition, etc. Theres a huge difference between "not wanting to play the .01isk game" and "wanting the rules of the .01isk game to be changed so I can win without effort"
Finedele Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.21 14:07:00 - [33] of course people saying oh nooooo, stop whining dont play teh game you lazy bone are right. my point of view is just that i dont go into the next mall, check my competitors prices and call in the mall manager telling him he has to drop the prices just 1 cent below the prices of the competitors. that pov MAY be wrong, but well, thats how I would like to see it :)
Vakhn	Posted - 2008.06.22 20:33:00 - [34] There's distinct types of traders in eve. Some rely on market knowledge and insight, while others just throw bulk time at the 0.1 game. This isnt the real stock market, even a monkey could probably make 500m a week with a portfolio of 200 or so items - just monitoring prices all day and shuffling 0.1 until competitors get bored. Obviously it's even easier at lower capital levels, ie if an item buys for 20isk and sells for 1,000isk a wealthy trader wont waste a slot on it, whereas a noob can make 5000% profit by doing so - hence why its so easy to go from 5k to 1b in a month etc.
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.06.22 20:54:00 - [35] Originally by: Vakhn There's distinct types of traders in eve. Some rely on market knowledge and insight, while others just throw bulk time at the 0.1 game. This isnt the real stock market, even a monkey could probably make 500m a week with a portfolio of 200 or so items - just monitoring prices all day and shuffling 0.1 until competitors get bored. Obviously it's even easier at lower capital levels, ie if an item buys for 20isk and sells for 1,000isk a wealthy trader wont waste a slot on it, whereas a noob can make 5000% profit by doing so - hence why its so easy to go from 5k to 1b in a month etc. If you call monitoring 200 items and modifying prices every time you are undercut 'easy', then what would you consider difficult? Easy to make 1bn off of 5k in a month? I know of only one person who has done that recently through trade. I found it much easier to do that with 500m, and downright effortless with 10bn, (which can easily make you 1bn in a single day if it's the day before or after a patch). You know what's really easy? Posting things on the forums.
Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Vakhn There's distinct types of traders in eve. Some rely on market knowledge and insight, while others just throw bulk time at the 0.1 game. This isnt the real stock market, even a monkey could probably make 500m a week with a portfolio of 200 or so items - just monitoring prices all day and shuffling 0.1 until competitors get bored. Obviously it's even easier at lower capital levels, ie if an item buys for 20isk and sells for 1,000isk a wealthy trader wont waste a slot on it, whereas a noob can make 5000% profit by doing so - hence why its so easy to go from 5k to 1b in a month etc. I dont think it's that easy ;)
Tyndmyr	Posted - 2008.06.24 03:31:00 - [37] The .01 game is ridiculously easy...its just time intensive and boring.
tie linus	Posted - 2008.06.24 11:06:00 - [38] Yeap the 0.1 isk game is fun I have found a way of putting a stop to that. I drop the price by 100,000isk at a time on my high end sells and this real works quite well. if they drop the price I'll do it again and again until it's low enough that i will buy their stock and put it up on the market. I have made a killing in profits on doing the above But you have to have the guts to do it have lost out also by dropping the price too much and the competition grabs my stock
Jastra Stardream Research	Posted - 2008.06.24 16:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Tyndmyr The .01 game is ridiculously easy...its just time intensive and boring. so not, in fact, easy then. I didnt say not possible ;)

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