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SHIVA and its effects on corporations and alliances

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Halseth Durn	Posted - 2004.05.13 21:00:00 - [1] I just wanted to start a discussion on how Shiva will be changing the way that corporations and alliances operate in 0.0 space. Until we see the patchnotes, cost of new items, and actually get to play with the new features, everything is speculation at this point. Considering what has been leaked so far, I would like to see what some of you predict happening durring the first few weeks. The biggest change I see is the ability for corps to set up their own "settlements" around moons. This feature alone will change how the 0.0 game plays completely. The specifics on how this will change EVE is something I am interested in hearing some fresh perspectives on. Also interested in: is Tech 3 coming and has tech 2 peaked with interceptors? Deep space manufactiring? New ship classes and abilities? Real alliance tools? Jovians? (I can almost smell them from Venal) New regions opening? Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS
Sun Wu	Posted - 2004.05.13 21:09:00 - [2] shiva means more targets to shoot at. That and nothing else. ________________________________
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.05.13 21:28:00 - [3] My own opinion- Shiva will shrink alliances. Multi region alliances will probably go the way of the dodo as their simply won't be the manpower round the clock to defend investments that these pos will be. CA? what like, 7 regions? They simply will be throwing away isk if they try to set pos up in some out of the way system in gw, OR alternatively, be ceding territory in another location while defending said pos. Same goes for xetic, pa (bkg/branch) SA (paragon/esoteria) etc etc. Another side effect= Corps like mine, m0o etc should be able to inflict SUBSTANTIAL losses on an enemy. (If these things are as pricy as they say) Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.05.13 21:40:00 - [4] Well, it gives territory meaning. But it also as noted means you'll have to concentrate to protect that space. The days of closed-space allianced claiming vast reigons are numebred, because corps currently in empire space are going to flood out into 0.0 to use the new platforms, etc. I don't think "tech 3" will come, rather named tech 2 modules craftable by corps at "resarch stations". "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Halseth Durn	Posted - 2004.05.13 21:52:00 - [5] Agreed, Prophet. The ability to finally destroy the substantial assets of a corporation will be a very likely possibility. However, CCP may nerf/counter this with insurance for the POSs and god-like defensive platforms. Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS
Kimpan	Posted - 2004.05.13 22:00:00 - [6] Probably all alliances will shrink, to like 1 region. And then i guess more alliances will form and come up and claim regions since 1 alliance wont be able to hold 5 regions and build things in them and protect it. Witch i think will be fun, alot of more alliances = alot of more wars and intresting war events :)
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.05.13 22:10:00 - [7] Well, imo it depends on the effort it takes to destroy one of the pos complexes, and wether the existing station distribution will be changed. I for example, see little reason for CA to build any, we have enough stations without risking the loss of substantial assets. Xetic on the other hand, has fewer stations, and might consider building pos complexes. I would not build them at this moment, because one thing is for sure. POS will be the next big target for everyone out there that wants to shoot stuff. And defending them will be impossible. Things will change for alliances, that's for sure. The only big ones that can remain are those that choose to destroy rather then build stations. Those that choose to build will be forced to withdraw to a small and well defendable area in order to protect their assets. I see no way in which this will work, as our evolution friend indicated, the big groups of baddies out there are too strong for anyone at this moment. Building pos is therefore useless unless they are very cheap or insurable, which in turn removes their stated point, being something worth fighting over. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Kimpan	Posted - 2004.05.13 22:14:00 - [8] Wont we be able to build our own sentrys that will help whit the defence ?
Arud	Posted - 2004.05.13 23:16:00 - [9] I think it all depends on how effective the automated turrets will be. If they are bad then nothing will change except maybe that alliances will be "forced" to allow outside and non alligned corps to build mining outposts in their area in exchange for alot of money and some protection maybe. The interesting bit is how effective the new ships will be and how much they will cost. Also that frigates and crusiers will be more effective that means cheaper battles and that in turn means more battles. And one more, special ops frigs will basicly ruin all safe spots so it will be interesting how that will affect the alliances.
Adrastos	Posted - 2004.05.13 23:42:00 - [10] also, it wont be possible for alliances to hide in empire space anymore since corp wars will affect the whole alliance. alliances whit alot of non pvp corps will probably loose alot of members or the non pvp corps will be forced to become more pvp oriented EVE Forum Rules - Contact the Moderator Team

Jezzebell	Posted - 2004.05.14 00:06:00 - [11] Interesting _______________________________ "Hey, watch this!"
Talon SilverHawk	Posted - 2004.05.14 00:08:00 - [12] I'm hoping for new ship types as well as new models of the existing types. This should make fleet battles more interesting as ppl will really have to have a balance of ships to win. New drones and missile launchers as visible objects on your ship when you equip them. They don't even have to be animated. New Ships, ship classes, modules and weapons (My wish list and rumour) Classes Dreadnoughts (Anti BS) Destroyers (Anti cruiser) Support ships (repair, energy and shields) Gunship (Anti Frigate) Scout (Stealthy) Ships New BS (Level 3/4 BS) New Cruisers (Elite) New Haulers (Larger more defenses) Drone Types Repair Drone Missile Defense Drone Energy sapping drone EW drone New Modules Missile Defense Pod Mine Layer New heavier Launchers for dreadnoughts New Weapons New class of super heavy weapons for dreadnoughts Heavier missile class for dreadnoughts Ill add more as I think of it... Tal What goes around comes around...
Kimpan	Posted - 2004.05.14 00:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Kimpan on 14/05/2004 00:21:35 Edited by: Kimpan on 14/05/2004 00:21:11 yeah whit alot of different classes that have different roles in a battle would make battles more intresting becuse alot of more tactics would be needed. Like the haviest battle ships is great on blowing off slow moving large targets but not good on hitting faster smaller targets. therefor you would need other classes to blow them off etc. Would be cool if indys could carry around like support guns in cargo so when they go in to battle they could like deploy artillery cannons and small/medium turrets and that cinda of things, to support the fleet. battles would be more intresting and would need good commanders.
Squatting Dog	Posted - 2004.05.14 00:30:00 - [14] Alliances will definately shrink down a lot.
Gan Howorth	Posted - 2004.05.14 00:53:00 - [15] When Shiva comes out, at the same time or some time soon after CCP will activate the corp standings which currently have no impact on the game. i.e. all dealings with NPC's thus far is based on each players individual standings. They will also activate the repsnse of stations to personal/corp standings: No docking/maybe a sentry ganking. This will have the effect of banishing corps who use pirate stations yet destroy those same pirates in the belts whilst mining. This is a massive impact on current alliance set ups. Player conquerables will suddenly have huge strategic value where available, also putting pressure on alliances to build their own POS. Indeed this will also shrink alliances to maybe to a region at the very most.
Halseth Durn	Posted - 2004.05.14 02:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Adrastos also, it wont be possible for alliances to hide in empire space anymore since corp wars will affect the whole alliance. alliances whit alot of non pvp corps will probably loose alot of members or the non pvp corps will be forced to become more pvp oriented Good point. Will alliances be based exclusively on corp to corp standings and will standings change instantainiously like they do now? If so, I see alliances with large industrial bases not using the tools or adjusting their standings down to neutral if their empire side assets are threatened. I hope there will be some yet unseen incentive to use the new system. Alliance managment could use some lovin. Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.05.14 04:53:00 - [17] my thoughts: - alliances will shrink to smaller, more organized groups of several corporations that seek to control a specific area. having an alliance that claims 3-8 regions and blockades the front door to keep it closed won't be possible because corps could get set up behind the lines and you wont see them for weeks even months - pilots in space/dock map feature for 0.0 regions needs to be GONE, nobody in their right mind would set up a multi-billion isk operation deep in hostile territory (which atm, everything is hostile) only to be found the first day you do a mining op - new ship classes? i would only put my bets on black ops/recon frigs being in WITH the shiva patch, as for the rest.. either months later, or Kali. Elite cruisers will probably be released somewhere in fall, with dreadnaughts and all those other special battleships somewhere during christmas with Kali or new years.. reason? not gonna be able to create a new UI that fast.. big undertaking - new XL class weapons for the dreadnaughts would be nice (can anyone say 6000 wrecking? o_0) so would anti-POS missles like LRBM (long range ballistic missle) that would travel at damned slow speeds with utter crap for tracking but deliver a payload that would seriously make a dent - POS, probably going to start small, with control towers, a few defenses, mobile refineries, cargo cans.. then get more detailed with shield emitters, missle platforms, reserach centers..etc. Should cost a lot of isk, because this game needs something that would force even carebear miners to fight and die to save. Should be destroyable and not conquerable, or else we'll reach a point where they are everywhere and it makes more sense to take one over rather than build one - should take a damn beating, and be hard to find, to avoid POS ganking fleets.. if you want to kill one be prepared to invest a week or more just tracking it down and then raiding the defenses down over the course of a few days (not like the silly conquerable stations where they switch hands hundreds of times a month) - new tracking, missle, drone, and skill changes should be very nice for some mixed fleets, although cruisers are sooo ****** atm its not even funny, they dont hit as hard as a bs, but are prone to direct bship fire.. they're also pretty weak, lasting a few seconds, but not as fast as a frig to running blah _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Tobruk	Posted - 2004.05.14 05:01:00 - [18] i think the new missle bombardment skills and missle speed skills will make auto turrets at current ranges pretty inaffective. alliances may expand though depending on the cost of the stuff. if defense stuff is impossibley expensive allainces may combine resources to defend larger areas and secure prices to raise funds for more pos. it will be interesting that for sure. ----------------------------------------------
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.05.14 06:16:00 - [19] One thing most seem to agree on is alliances getting smaller. If the best most large alliances can muster fleetwise on any given day is 50 ships, 75 on weekends, it's obvious they will be unable to defend more then a constellation, perhaps a region. No way more then one. I think it was morkt (could be wrong) that said something to the effect of, Current alliances are little more then placeholders for when pos come out. Possible side effect- Lets face it, noone ever really surrenders anything in this game. POS lead to the possibility that a corp/alliance may sue for peace with an aggressor, rather then have a couple billion of pos get blown up. In a way, it could at a lot to the political enviroment in Eve. Insurance? Man I hope not. Lets have SOMETHING in the game, that is worth fighting for. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
PaulAtreides	Posted - 2004.05.14 06:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Halseth Durn I just wanted to start a discussion on how Shiva will be changing the way that corporations and alliances operate in 0.0 space. Until we see the patchnotes, cost of new items, and actually get to play with the new features, everything is speculation at this point. Considering what has been leaked so far, I would like to see what some of you predict happening durring the first few weeks. The biggest change I see is the ability for corps to set up their own "settlements" around moons. This feature alone will change how the 0.0 game plays completely. The specifics on how this will change EVE is something I am interested in hearing some fresh perspectives on. Also interested in: is Tech 3 coming and has tech 2 peaked with interceptors? Deep space manufactiring? New ship classes and abilities? Real alliance tools? Jovians? (I can almost smell them from Venal) New regions opening? Wow... There is a lot of the "dark and mysterious" feeling to the upcoming Shiva patch. To clear up a common misconception: Shiva does not = Tech 3. The biggest improvement besides all the POS in my opinion is how the Alliance tools will be working. For example. If 1 corp in the alliance is at war with corp/alliance b, then the whole alliance will be at war with them. There is a dev blog about this somewhere. Hopefully CCP will post sometime in the near future, exactly what Shiva will be bringing to us exactly. I would also be interested in how the distribution system is going to work for the POS. Personally I hate agents although I have a pet research agent in empire...Like having a lottery ticket that never expires. Some of the POS's are made for Deep Space Manufacturing, yeah..should be fun. Also There are new POS's that are specifically for researching stuff that CONNOT be researched anywhere near a civilized sector of space (0.0 research structures), due to the volatile nature of the research. PaulAtreides PRAYS for new ship classes I very much doubt that new sectors of space will be spawned. Very hard to motivate this in RP for 1 (unless they say something profoundly lame like...new solar systems found...right next door to the old ones), and secondly... The increased population is a boiling pot that CCP I suspect are encouraging...opening new regions would spread people out again. Want to work for me?

Guderian	Posted - 2004.05.14 12:29:00 - [21] Edited by: Guderian on 14/05/2004 12:34:33 Originally by: DigitalCommunist my thoughts: - alliances will shrink to smaller, more organized groups of several corporations that seek to control a specific area. having an alliance that claims 3-8 regions and blockades the front door to keep it closed won't be possible because corps could get set up behind the lines and you wont see them for weeks even months Remember that the intruder needs to protect his site also. It will not be like running around in frigates behind enemy lines ganking indies. It raises the stakes for the aggressor too. "Blessed is he, who walks through life in ignorance, 'cause he does not know the dangers that lies beyond."
Friday Dillinja	Posted - 2004.05.14 12:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Guderian Remember that the intruder needs to protect his site also. It will not be like running around in frigates behind enemy lines ganking indies. It raises the stakes for the aggressor too. Yes and no. If you take the current attackers on CA as example, you could retaliate on FA or NORAD, but its hard to counter attack corps like m0o or evol, who dont claim any stations or regions of space. It will surely make alliance warfare more interesting, because both sides risk equally valuable assets. "Independant" pvp corps however could blow up that shiny new station and all you could do is hope to destroy some of their ships. The risk / reward ratio is very onesided here, if you count "fun" as reward. ------------------------------------ retired. niwaie of Xanadu
Shirei	Posted - 2004.05.14 12:42:00 - [23] Edited by: Shirei on 14/05/2004 12:44:15 It really depends a lot on how exactly POS are going to be implemented and so far I couldn't find very much specific information about it. The main sticking point about this is probably.. Will they be destroyable and if so, how easily? As it is quite obviously impossible to defend anything 24/7 without making the game insanely boring for the people involved, there should be a quite a significant amount of work involved in destroy them. (not just shooting them for an hour or two with a few BS) If the balance is shifted towards being easy to destroy (even if a significant amount of effort is spent on sentries/other defenses), it will indeed become quite hard to control any significant amount of territory with them and their use will probably be quite limited. If on the other hand they are impossible or hard to destroy (with reasonable defenses), they would make access to remote regions far easier and make alliances face the problem how to prevent hostile forces from building POS in their territory (although that might still be possible, as long as POS are vulnerable during construction and if construction takes a while). The ideal compromise, in my opinion at least, would probably be that they are destroyable, but that their destruction needs a quite significant amount of work. (For example, an hour or two of shooting from a mid-sized fleet is enough to bring the POS to low structural integrity, at which point it will be destroyed within maybe a day or so unless the defenders manage to bring a few indy loads of minerals/construction materials for repairs within that time, making it necessary to blockade the station/system for a while to actually be able to destroy a POS). A solution like this would probably affect alliances the least because it would generally be possible for them to prevent the destruction of their POS even without 24/7 defense, but make it possible to remove hostile POS from your own territory with some amount of effort involved.
Saladin	Posted - 2004.05.14 12:46:00 - [24] I don't think any alliances, especially the CA will shrink at all. If the new POS will be expensive and too high a liability, then no one will build them. I do see pirates however having a much harder time because covert ops firgates will have been introduced and there will be fewer game mechanics they can cowardly hide behind
Guderian	Posted - 2004.05.14 12:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Friday Dillinja Originally by: Guderian Remember that the intruder needs to protect his site also. It will not be like running around in frigates behind enemy lines ganking indies. It raises the stakes for the aggressor too. Yes and no. If you take the current attackers on CA as example, you could retaliate on FA or NORAD, but its hard to counter attack corps like m0o or evol, who dont claim any stations or regions of space. It will surely make alliance warfare more interesting, because both sides risk equally valuable assets. "Independant" pvp corps however could blow up that shiny new station and all you could do is hope to destroy some of their ships. The risk / reward ratio is very onesided here, if you count "fun" as reward. Unfortunately VERY true. Hopefully some sort of passive defence will be put into that game, so an attack on a fortress installation has to be substantial and not without any losses. "Blessed is he, who walks through life in ignorance, 'cause he does not know the dangers that lies beyond."
Saladin	Posted - 2004.05.14 12:47:00 - [26] I don't think any alliances, especially the CA will shrink at all. If the new POS will be expensive and too high a liability, then no one will build them. I do see pirates however having a much harder time because covert ops firgates will have been introduced and there will be fewer game mechanics they can cowardly hide behind
Thesalaus	Posted - 2004.05.14 13:32:00 - [27] Saladin hit it right on the head. What alliance/corp in their right mind would invest billion in POS if they are easily destroyed? Think they'll do it just to say, "Hey look, we have the first POS in space!" Not likely. Ah darn, that pirate corp just nuked it. Oh well, let's be really stupid and build another one so they can blow it up again. Duh." So what you'll have is that Alliances/Corps will not buy these items and will continue to operate out of existing NPC stations. Question: Is there a really good compelling reason to buy POS? For more isk? Just to say you have one? So nothing changes............... Except that when black ops frigates are introduced in game it'll make life much harder for invading forces. So my personally opinion is that Alliances won't shrink. Oberon Inc Website Oberon Sales Page Pain
Shirei	Posted - 2004.05.14 13:46:00 - [28] Well, someone in this thread said they would activate corp standings with NPC factions, so that you can't dock at NPC stations if you have a large negative standing with them (or even get attacked by sentries). That would probably make operating out of those stations in 0.0 rather hard, if you also want to shoot NPCs occasionally.. But I don't know if that's just a rumour or has any basis.
Walking Contradiction	Posted - 2004.05.14 13:50:00 - [29] Tech III research can only be done in POS. So, unless you intend to miss out on the next hype, there is a reason to build POS.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2004.05.14 14:14:00 - [30] If you have a FORMAL alliance, then yes you pick up all the empire wars of all the members. loose Free Space agreements, on the other hand... "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"



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