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WCS whining -> NOS/Nanofiber whining -> "Nano"-whine........

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Baudolino Sky Net Industries Pure.	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:42:00 - [1] The evolution of whine and how CCPs catering to carebears and crap pilots have improved EVE combat. I`ve played since summer 2003 and combat has come along way from the early days of "starcraft" type stationary battles to the high speed forays of today. It used to be that almost anyone could PvP- even solo. Stab nerf changed this of course, but people adapted making use of the nanofiber/nos combination and kept solo harassment and small engagements against bigger numbers alive. Of course, nos was nerfed and nanofibers were split into several modules. But still players kept evolving towards a tendency of speed and maneuverability, using combinations of the then new rigs, implants and modules and of course "heat". From the time they implemented the "orbit" function (my idea actually)in late 2003 and onwards, tactics and speed have both increased dramatically. Some say this is bad. Some say eve must slow down.... At this point in eve we are not dependent on speed to survive but any gang operating anywhere DOES need a speed component. Some gangs go "all-out" as this gives the gang greater operational reach and better tactical movement. When people say nano they tend to include speeds from 3kms and upwards- i personally don`t think these players know much about "nano" play styles at all. Anyone can get 3-4kms on just about any ship with pretty basic fittings and overtaking them and webbing them is not that hard. True nano-piloting in my opinion is found in the speeds of 6km+ (preferably 8kms). These speeds on decent ships require massive investments. Billion isk implants and 5-600mill ships. At these speeds, coordinating the flow of battle, keeping EW in optimal of hostile, recons and damage and the right position, tackling and not getting the gang spread out- takes effort... Commanding in nano battles, true nano battles, demands alot more of FCs and gang members then the slower manifestations of combat in EVE. Speeds and ranges of combat make for incredibly exiting combat- two nano gangs hooking up can be a complete mess to keep track off. In my opinion current combat styles are far superior to earlier styles, demanding alot more from players in regards to teamplay, planning and tactics. Todays eve is the most interesting i`ve ever played and i don`t know if this is CCPs longterm plan, but it seems to me that with every whine and every nerf, eve and combat keeps getting more exhiting. Regards Baudolino
FORD ESC0RT State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:53:00 - [2] Edited by: FORD ESC0RT on 22/06/2008 12:53:43 Just because a pilot has a bunch of isk and high SP doesn't make nanoing balanced. It's the new wcs with a ton of dps. nanos need to be nerfed sometime.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:54:00 - [3] I'm sorry, apart from the odd attempt to enlarge your epeen what are you actually trying to say in this thread? Surely if a ship is specifically fit for speed it is classed as a nano ship, even if it doesn't go stupid speeds it may just be because its not able to. Also I don't think current combat styles are better than a year or two ago, I think that since then they have definatly got worse but meh, I get bored of going fast sometimes, it's just too easy.
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:59:00 - [4] Your first sentence is "The evolution of whine". What a excellent start to a whinepost! -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.22 13:05:00 - [5] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/06/2008 13:05:09 Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Edited by: FORD ESC0RT on 22/06/2008 12:53:43 Just because a pilot has a bunch of isk and high SP doesn't make nanoing balanced. It's the new wcs with a ton of dps. nanos need to be nerfed sometime. Nano's do not need to be nerfed - the counter needs to be boosted. If pvp had only 10km scrams, it would be stupid. And the best way to scramble a nanoship is to use a web. Long range but low power web scripts are the solution. Secondly, the gate jump in distance of 15km makes it too easy to MWD/cloak to hit gate and jump though. This should be changed to 25km (with hics/dictors having bigger bubbles to catch people as well. -- Billion Isk Mission
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.06.22 14:20:00 - [6] Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Edited by: FORD ESC0RT on 22/06/2008 12:53:43 Just because a pilot has a bunch of isk and high SP doesn't make nanoing balanced. It's the new wcs with a ton of dps. nanos need to be nerfed sometime. Do you ever stop lol? I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them.
Talaan Stardrifter	Posted - 2008.06.22 15:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Talaan Stardrifter on 22/06/2008 15:41:55 Originally by: Lord WarATron Long range but low power web scripts are the solution. I like this idea, how about these: Web Range Script : +100% to webifier range, -50% velocity penalty (ie, half strength web) Web Strength Script : +50% velocity penalty (max 99.5%), -50% web range
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.22 15:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Edited by: FORD ESC0RT on 22/06/2008 12:53:43 Just because a pilot has a bunch of isk and high SP doesn't make nanoing balanced. It's the new wcs with a ton of dps. nanos need to be nerfed sometime. Do you ever stop lol? Agree, Ban ford esc0rt now, he's a ***** idiot. ton of dps? lol _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age** The truth about balance it doesn't exist.
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.22 15:50:00 - [9] Edited by: Tenuo on 22/06/2008 15:51:15 Originally by: Talaan Stardrifter Edited by: Talaan Stardrifter on 22/06/2008 15:41:55 Originally by: Lord WarATron Long range but low power web scripts are the solution. I like this idea, how about these: Web Range Script : +100% to webifier range, -50% velocity penalty (ie, half strength web) Web Strength Script : +50% velocity penalty (max 99.5%), -50% web range 45% would be a tad too much. 20-30 is in line imo. Actually I'm not sure it's a good iea because a gang of people will have multiple and then it defeats the point of webs anyway, unless you ofc. do the stacking that the web drones have. _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance it doesn't exist.
FORD ESC0RT State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.22 15:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Tenuo Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Edited by: FORD ESC0RT on 22/06/2008 12:53:43 Just because a pilot has a bunch of isk and high SP doesn't make nanoing balanced. It's the new wcs with a ton of dps. nanos need to be nerfed sometime. Do you ever stop lol? Agree, Ban ford esc0rt now, he's a ******* idiot. ton of dps? lol Vagabonds do almost 600 dps and nano-ishtars almost 500. that's enough to wear down many bs tanks

Mr Ignitious Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.06.22 15:56:00 - [11] didn't start the game when you did, but i've heard all of what you said before. A bravo post good sir. also @ the WCS + ton of dps comment... every person i talk to about nano's ends up using the phrase "hits like a wet noodle"
Selia Rain	Posted - 2008.06.22 17:35:00 - [12] Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Vagabonds do almost 600 dps and nano-ishtars almost 500. that's enough to wear down many bs tanks 518 dps, max skills, 220s, 5x hobgoblin II, and a HML II with CN missiles. At optimal, which he won't be at. Call it 200-300 dps at optimal+falloff, and that's max skills and 3x damage mods. DPS of a wet. paper. bag. Ishtar dps is destroyable, and easily so. Web an ogre II and watch it melt as it takes full damage from about any weapon, and drones, or fit a smartbomb and melt them all at once. 475 max skill, fully destroyable dps. The nano to watch out for is sac. It's slower than the other two, but not only is it's dps non destroyable, firable from 0-70+km, and reasonably high. Plus, vanilla out of the box it can MWD forever.
Railin wei	Posted - 2008.06.22 17:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Selia Rain The nano to watch out for is sac. It's slower than the other two, but not only is it's dps non destroyable, firable from 0-70+km, and reasonably high. Plus, vanilla out of the box it can MWD forever. Nano Zealot is pretty scary to.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.22 17:47:00 - [14] Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Vagabonds do almost 600 dps I lolled
Megan Maynard Out of Order	Posted - 2008.06.22 17:53:00 - [15] this post is win. I can go 3km/s in a rupture. That kind of speed is not nano, nor is it win. If you can't kill a ship going 3 km/s, that's not broken mechanics, that's terrible forethought and planning. (You are dumb in other words.) CCP has yet to do ANYTHING regarding the "supposed" nano nerf coming. (HINT: It was never a FACT that a nano nerf was coming.) The nano recons are pretty nasty, but lack super high DPS with the exception of the CURSE which makes up for that by raping your cap. HAC's need nano to survive or most of them will lose their roles in eve combat.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.06.22 17:54:00 - [16] Well, 200 is understatement as well. Standard 2x gyro vaga does about 360 dps [max skills so in reality it¦s slightly lower for most pilots] at 20km if you don¦t get tracking related misses. 410 if you have 2 x projectile ambit extension rigs installed.
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.22 18:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Ambien Torca Edited by: Ambien Torca on 22/06/2008 18:04:34 Edited by: Ambien Torca on 22/06/2008 17:57:48 Well, 200 is understatement as well. Standard 2x gyro vaga does about 360 dps [max skills so in reality it¦s slightly lower for most pilots] at 20km if you don¦t get tracking related misses. 400 if you have 2 x projectile ambit extension rigs installed. It¦s always interesting to see people scoffing off at nanoship damage, most of them do pretty decent dps for a cruiser sized ships. For OP, if your gang has skirmish modded BC with you you can cut down on investment a lot. One poly and vagas mwd speed is 6.5k. Obviously you know this but had to be said. Factor in the time you zoom around with mwd on recharging shields. _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.06.22 18:12:00 - [18] That¦s quite hard, bigger your gang less you have to do that. If you¦re solo it indeed might be the case that you spend a lot of time in mwd mode (limited by cap too). Sometimes you don¦t have to use mwd that much and other times you have to go zoom zoom for a long time or possibly even warp out if your enemies start paying too much attention to you.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.22 18:45:00 - [19] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 22/06/2008 18:46:57 Originally by: Ambien Torca Edited by: Ambien Torca on 22/06/2008 18:04:34 Edited by: Ambien Torca on 22/06/2008 17:57:48 Well, 200 is understatement as well. Standard 2x gyro vaga does about 360 dps [max skills so in reality it¦s slightly lower for most pilots] at 20km if you don¦t get tracking related misses. 400 if you have 2 x projectile ambit extension rigs installed. It¦s always interesting to see people scoffing off at nanoship damage, most of them do pretty decent dps for a cruiser sized ships. For OP, if your gang has skirmish modded BC with you you can cut down on investment a lot. One poly and vagas mwd speed is 6.5k. Obviously you know this but had to be said. Don't see where this number is coming from. 2 gyro vaga does under 500 DPS, at optimal + falloff (25km w/out rigs, I believe) the number is 60%, tracking unrelated. so you'd be doing right next to 300 DPS at 20km. Not to mention any misses from tracking. Ambit rigs may raise this closer to 350, but a vagabond won't reach 400 DPS at 20km. Edit: PS, 350 DPS is nothing for a cruise class vessel. Considering you can get a thorax near 600, vexor near 700 DPS for a fraction of the cost (they're glass cannons, but cheap at least), I would hardly say nano damage is in any way overpowered.
Haru Itari	Posted - 2008.06.22 19:04:00 - [20] So many things wrong here. At 20km, A vaga is gonna be doing less than 250dps (100 of this from the 5 warrior II) and that's if you're not using your mwd. Have you people even tried hitting ANYTHING while your own ship is going at 5km/s? Transversal works both ways. Vagas are not meant to do damage, they're meant to lure out people or hold down people for the killing blows from the Muninn or ishtar with sentry drones 70 km away.

Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.06.22 19:29:00 - [21] Originally by: AstroPhobic Don't see where this number is coming from. 2 gyro vaga does under 500 DPS, at optimal + falloff (25km w/out rigs, I believe) the number is 60%, tracking unrelated. so you'd be doing right next to 300 DPS at 20km. Not to mention any misses from tracking. Ambit rigs may raise this closer to 350, but a vagabond won't reach 400 DPS at 20km. Edit: PS, 350 DPS is nothing for a cruise class vessel. Considering you can get a thorax near 600, vexor near 700 DPS for a fraction of the cost (they're glass cannons, but cheap at least), I would hardly say nano damage is in any way overpowered. 400 is with 2 ambit rigs without tracking, one HML II and 5 x hobgoblin II (with warriors it¦s 380). There is useful tool in EFT called dps graph where you can simulate this stuff, it also has traversal option but I¦ve found that bit confusing to use. Once you have graph open you can change your fitting and graph will update after each change. I do know that essentially suicide fitted cruiser can indeed get high dps but most often used cruisers are in 300-400 dps league for most part (say classic 1600 plate ruppie and such). The very least I¦ve never said they do overpowered damage and anyone who does is silly. What I said is they do damage I¦d expect cruiser sized ship do for most part unless it¦s utterly fitted for gank with no regards to survival.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.06.22 19:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Haru Itari So many things wrong here. At 20km, A vaga is gonna be doing less than 250dps (100 of this from the 5 warrior II) and that's if you're not using your mwd. Have you people even tried hitting ANYTHING while your own ship is going at 5km/s? Transversal works both ways. Vagas are not meant to do damage, they're meant to lure out people or hold down people for the killing blows from the Muninn or ishtar with sentry drones 70 km away. Where are you pulling these figures? Just winging it?
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.22 19:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Ambien Torca Originally by: AstroPhobic Don't see where this number is coming from. 2 gyro vaga does under 500 DPS, at optimal + falloff (25km w/out rigs, I believe) the number is 60%, tracking unrelated. so you'd be doing right next to 300 DPS at 20km. Not to mention any misses from tracking. Ambit rigs may raise this closer to 350, but a vagabond won't reach 400 DPS at 20km. Edit: PS, 350 DPS is nothing for a cruise class vessel. Considering you can get a thorax near 600, vexor near 700 DPS for a fraction of the cost (they're glass cannons, but cheap at least), I would hardly say nano damage is in any way overpowered. 400 is with 2 ambit rigs without tracking, one HML II and 5 x hobgoblin II (with warriors it¦s 380). There is useful tool in EFT called dps graph where you can simulate this stuff, it also has traversal option but I¦ve found that bit confusing to use. Once you have graph open you can change your fitting and graph will update after each change. I do know that essentially suicide fitted cruiser can indeed get high dps but most often used cruisers are in 300-400 dps league for most part (say classic 1600 plate ruppie and such). The very least I¦ve never said they do overpowered damage and anyone who does is silly. What I said is they do damage I¦d expect cruiser sized ship do for most part unless it¦s utterly fitted for gank with no regards to survival. Right, I was just eyeing the tracking issue and figured it would be at least a 10% miss rate due to transversal. I just mean realistically. I understand it's comparable to t1 cruiser damage, where they can fit an oversized plate and do the same damage. It's just a much more expensive way to tank incoming fire.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.06.22 19:37:00 - [24] Well, with added plus of far easier disengagement which is of course the reason people are using these ships (in fact in a plated ship one is pretty much fully committed to fight unless you are hugging a gate or station). There seems to be a lot of irritated, overreacting people in these nanothreads... Veins popping? :) Not aimed to anyone specifically in this thread or otherwise.
Varshyll	Posted - 2008.06.22 22:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/06/2008 13:05:09 Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Edited by: FORD ESC0RT on 22/06/2008 12:53:43 Just because a pilot has a bunch of isk and high SP doesn't make nanoing balanced. It's the new wcs with a ton of dps. nanos need to be nerfed sometime. Nano's do not need to be nerfed - the counter needs to be boosted. THIS. Some ideas : _Scripts for web _Falloff for web _Boost the speed of web drones _Add a new ewar module which add mass _Change the speed/signature calculation for missile damages : high speed shouldn t negate missiles damages with thoses huge signatures (MWD + LSE)
Zephyr Rengate State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.22 22:40:00 - [26] This thread is full of so much bull** and trolling. Originally by:** Jenny Spitfire I will not liek human meat but the naerest I tried is human chesse. I don't want to tried again ...


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