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NANO.. nano... yet again. Countering nano!

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Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 08:57:00 - [1] nano is improper = rigs are not nanofibers A nano ship is a ship that is setup in order to: * go fast * stay out of web range * shoot you from that distance. Another trend was/is a bumpage ship. Ment to come at high speed and bump you. Interceptors should not be put in the same class as nano ships for the sake of discussing nanos, because while they go fast and use the same modules etc. it is their purpose to intercept and there is nothing faster than them in game. They serve the purpose they were built for. The item database In order to counter a nano ship you need to : * go faster * web it * shoot it at the distance it is flying * make it go away so you can warp to safety * make it come to you The item databse is a wonderfull thing. I wil use it to point you to some things you can use: * drones sensor dampners: hammerhead sd600, ogre sd900 ecm: vespa ec600, wasp ec900 cap neutralizers: acolyte ev300, infiltrator ev600, praetor ev900 webifiers: berserker sw900 * drone upgrades increase speed: drone navigation computer increase range: drone link augmentor * gang asist modules increases ab and mwd speed: SWL - rapid deployment boost propulsion jamming range: SWL - interdiction manouvers lowers sig radius: SWL - evasive manouvers increase range of ew modules: IWL - recon operation increase strenght of ew modules: IWL - electronic superiority "go faster" * train skills for it * use implants for it * use apropriate ship * use gang asist modules to boost your speed "web it" * make the other ship go slower by using webs, web drones, ships with web bonus, overheat etc. "shoot it at the distance it is flying" * use alfa strike * use tracking enhancers * use proper ships (destroyers and afs for example) "make it go away so you can warp to safety" * neutralize it, if it gets into range of neut it will want togo away * use sensor dampner to make it get into neut range or use neut drones "make it come to you" * use dampners and other ew to force it in coming closer * once closer use drones, neuts and ships with good tracking to putthe hurt . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Haakelen Force d'action navale	Posted - 2008.06.23 08:58:00 - [2] we need another thread about this

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.06.23 08:58:00 - [3] WEED IT! Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

My Julutschka Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.23 08:59:00 - [4] what is nano? never heard of it
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:06:00 - [5] Quote: "shoot it at the distance it is flying" * use alfa strike Launching antique automobiles at the target is not a counter for Nano ships. CCP un-nerf the Spider now! My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:11:00 - [6] I am sorry you felt the need to troll. Thank you. I am also sorry you do not realize that all the threads about it have people complaining about it while not bothering to look for a solution. And I'm sorry you do not realize that all these people will whine untill an uneeded nerf will forced into the game. A nerf that was done before for nanofibers etc. Please put something worthy in the thread. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:14:00 - [7] In before spinekers copy pasted 150km neut post. _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist.
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Tenuo In before spinekers copy pasted 150km neut post. At 150km you should not care much. you can just warp away. Or you could ecm, sensor damp. Smart arse. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
coeathal vega Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:34:00 - [9] some quality content there from the OP. ..makes you wonder, how did he miss all those nano threads. ******. ----
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.23 09:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Dihania Originally by: Tenuo In before spinekers copy pasted 150km neut post. At 150km you should not care much. you can just warp away. Or you could ecm, sensor damp. Smart arse. Tell that to spineker. _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist.

Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 10:03:00 - [11] Edited by: Dihania on 23/06/2008 10:06:16 Originally by: coeathal vega some quality content there from the OP. ..makes you wonder, how did he miss all those nano threads. ****. buzz off **** edit: at least it seems there are no pro nano nerf squads posting in here. maybe they are gathering their aguments for a head shot /me hides in the trenches (damn snipers) . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.06.23 10:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 23/06/2008 10:32:07 Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 23/06/2008 10:31:10 Originally by: Dihania Edited by: Dihania on 23/06/2008 10:11:16 nano is improper = rigs are not nanofibers A nano ship is a ship that is setup in order to: * go fast * stay out of web range * shoot you from that distance. Another trend was/is a bumpage ship. Ment to come at high speed and bump you. Interceptors should not be put in the same class as nano ships for the sake of discussing nanos, because while they go fast and use the same modules etc. it is their purpose to intercept and there is nothing faster than them in game. They serve the purpose they were built for. So, Vagabonds are not nano ships either from your definition. When I check the description of the Vagabond in the Item Database: "The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required." It's their purpose to be fast, to zoom in, do damage and get the f*ck out.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2008.06.23 10:32:00 - [13] In most cases a nano ships 'tank' is its speed, since nano ships require their low slots to be filled out in speed modules. Some ships might manage some kind of shield tank, but generally speaking this will not come close to that of a passive caldari tank. What the nano-ships have, has been said in a thousand posts like these - speed and thus the ability to dictate a) whether an engagement ever occurs and b) the range at which said engagement happens. However, in order to get kills the nano ship still has to tackle you - in 1 v 1 this means he's going to be ~24km, which is perfect range for Heavy Neuts - nano ships rely on cap for their MWD, so a neut is going to fend them off. In larger engagements target there tacklers while using dampeners & ecm on there long range guns - get your ability to warp back while using your own tacklers to web & tackle there's - nano ships aren't going to outrun interceptors & once there ability to tackle is reduced there viability to fight at range is removed. My own experience (and yep, i'm in a very established corp who uses nano ships alot), is that most fleets we encounter really aren't setup to support each other, nor do they employ any kind of 'anti nano' tactics beyond the odd rapier pilot that may just coincidently happen to be in there gang. They just fit whatever mods they think works best in the ship they are in and go join there gang, they rarely try to adapt, use other tactics and hence the result is always the same - they lose, come to these forums and post how nano ships need to be nerfed. On the other side, all the pilots in our fleet are all fitted in a similar manner so that our tactics will all compliment one another, we all know what each ship type is going to be doing and it makes life so much easier for everyone, especially whoever happens to be FC.
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.23 12:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Major Death Quote: "shoot it at the distance it is flying" * use alfa strike Launching antique automobiles at the target is not a counter for Nano ships. CCP un-nerf the Spider now! Is this related to the CSM "Monster Truck" thread ?
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen ... I said just for the sake of discussing this in fact non issue with "nanos". Vagas go fast, Deimoses go fast , etc. I think only the Caldari miss a cruiser that does not go fast. But interceptors are a breed of their own so I just did not want to take them into discussion. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Rheddin	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Major Death Quote: "shoot it at the distance it is flying" * use alfa strike Launching antique automobiles at the target is not a counter for Nano ships. CCP un-nerf the Spider now! I was thinking alfalfa sprouts, they might work. Enoguh of them, frozen from teh cold of space, travelling fast enough... they could take out a Titan I bet.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:53:00 - [17] Good post, OP. Ignore the trolls. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Ohhitsa SNAKE	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:21:00 - [18] http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&rlz=1T4HPNW_enGB244GB246&q=google%20video&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#hl=en&sitesearch=&q=mork%20and%20mindy%20nanoo Its been talked about for ages, well in the old days of nanno pods.
Skogen Gump	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Major Death Quote: "shoot it at the distance it is flying" * use alfa strike Launching antique automobiles at the target is not a counter for Nano ships. CCP un-nerf the Spider now! Hardened Holistic doctors use the feared and deadly Alfalfa strike
csebal HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Dihania Edited by: Dihania on 23/06/2008 10:11:16 nano is improper = rigs are not nanofibers A nano ship is a ship that is setup in order to: * go fast * stay out of web range * shoot you from that distance. Another trend was/is a bumpage ship. Ment to come at high speed and bump you. Interceptors should not be put in the same class as nano ships for the sake of discussing nanos, because while they go fast and use the same modules etc. it is their purpose to intercept and there is nothing faster than them in game. They serve the purpose they were built for. The item database In order to counter a nano ship you need to : * go faster * web it * shoot it at the distance it is flying * make it go away so you can warp to safety * make it come to you The item databse is a wonderfull thing. I wil use it to point you to some things you can use: * drones sensor dampners: hammerhead sd600, ogre sd900 ecm: vespa ec600, wasp ec900 cap neutralizers: acolyte ev300, infiltrator ev600, praetor ev900 webifiers: berserker sw900 * drone upgrades increase speed: drone navigation computer increase range: drone link augmentor * gang asist modules increases ab and mwd speed: SWL - rapid deployment boost propulsion jamming range: SWL - interdiction manouvers lowers sig radius: SWL - evasive manouvers increase range of ew modules: IWL - recon operation increase strenght of ew modules: IWL - electronic superiority "go faster" * train skills for it * use implants for it * use apropriate ship * use gang asist modules to boost your speed "web it" * make the other ship go slower by using webs, web drones, ships with web bonus, overheat etc. "shoot it at the distance it is flying" * use alfa strike * use tracking enhancers * use proper ships (destroyers and afs for example) "make it go away so you can warp to safety" * neutralize it, if it gets into range of neut it will want togo away * use sensor dampner to make it get into neut range or use neut drones "make it come to you" * use dampners and other ew to force it in coming closer * once closer use drones, neuts and ships with good tracking to putthe hurt I started to list out all the problems with the solutions you "propose" but then i got bored of it, so lets just say: Nice try, but you are way off the mark. My post does not represent the general or official opinion of anyone else besides me. No matter what YOU believe. Phear the arrows of the HUNs >>---->

Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:44:00 - [21] Edited by: Dihania on 23/06/2008 15:45:31 Ok.. give at least some points will you ? something like: "but drones do not go as fast as the nano ships do". . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
z0de The Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:47:00 - [22] Originally by: csebal I started to list out all the problems with the solutions you "propose" but then i got bored of it, so lets just say: Nice try, but you are way off the mark. I'd like to know what you think is wrong with ops post. "nice try" does not cut it.
PuncherDavis	Posted - 2008.06.23 16:22:00 - [23] OK I dont know who did it but u broke the RIGHT SIDE OF THE SCREEN>>>>> TExt is not WRAPPING... GM FIX please
Ranger 1 Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.23 16:47:00 - [24] With the exception of the passing reference to EW, there is very little that is actually effective vs a typical nano gang in the OP. Do keep in mind that the typical, and most effective, nano gang does most of its work at the 80-120 km range and kills with its alpha strike capability on smaller/weaker ships or with well timed high speed warp scrambling runs on targets that drift too far from their support. Also keep in mind that you rarely will face only a handful of pilots in a nano gang, they well realize that their power comes in reaching that critical number necessary for for their combined firepower to quickly take down their targets. 10-20+ would be the typical gang size. It is a myth that a nano gang must have poor firepower. A nano gang of Cerbs, Zealots, and Vaga's will shred most other gangs easily... and their losses will be few to none. Speed negates many of the counters listed above, primarily due to momentum carrying the nano ship outside the range of the counter (yes, even rapier/huginn web range). Current good counters depend of a fleet having lots of good EW, lots of ceptors (with scram AND web) which if properly protected by your EW ships can and will run down most nano ships, and tracking enhanced guns (medium works best) that can hit out to 80-120km. A very specialized fleet to be sure, but effective. You have to have the EW else your tacklers get shredded, you have to have the ceptors to have the advantage of superior speed (cheaply) and the abilty to get a web and scram on your target, and you have to have hard hitting guns that can track well and hit out to the necessary ranges to quickly kill your target. Where I live we have been squaring off with nano gangs for the several months, and the lessons learned were hard ones. I'm not trying to dismiss anyones idea's here, I'm just giving some practical first hand input and trying to clarify what the reality of a nano gangs composition and tactics will be.
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:22:00 - [25] thank you Ranger. I see why you disagree with my post. But you said only EW, while mentioning afterwards interceptors with scrams and webs, tracking enhancements and good damage. I also mentioned these things. I agree, it comes down to tactics and gang composition, yet it is possible to counter nano ships and nano gangs as a whole while fitting accordingly and using proper tactics. Don't you agree this is valid for any other type of gangs in eve ? POS takedowns ? special gangs Roaming ? special gangs Just a large fleet? special too (snipers for example, support, ew...) All battles and all gangs in eve are setup in order to achieve their purpose and a counter to a nano gang has to be setup accordingly too. Thank you for a decent post, was getting bugged by all the trolls. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Clone 231B School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:27:00 - [26] The more spam threads that you make defending nano, the more attention it brings to the nano problem. I don't get why, if you are trying to defend nanos, you would make topics defending it, further highlighting the percieved issues.
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:34:00 - [27] because stupid people **** me off, so I kill some more neurons to try getting at their level as fast as possible. than we will be happy. .. and I like to post . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
roq deelim	Posted - 2008.06.24 21:56:00 - [28] just to make it clear... nanos as a tactic are fully valid - the problem is there is NO effective counter. the most setups you'll find here on forums read like the posters never actually fought against a nano. if you need 15-20 ships in total to stop 2-3 nanos then this is "innefective" at its best, and nothing to be called "nano-counter-setup". there is no fun when you engage a hostile, where he runs away to a safespot mwding away @8km/s punting a "gf" in local. NO it was not a "gf" - especialy if you check the killboards just to se that same guy ganked an indy few minutes later. so if someone asks you: -yes the nano-setup is ok as it is -yes there is a huge inballance in game mechanics (web/mwd/speedimps) -no it is not fun fighting like this -no there is nothing like honour behind it - actually its quite lame
Haakelen Force d'action navale	Posted - 2008.06.24 21:57:00 - [29] Originally by: roq deelim just to make it clear... nanos as a tactic are fully valid - the problem is there is NO effective counter. the most setups you'll find here on forums read like the posters never actually fought against a nano. if you need 15-20 ships in total to stop 2-3 nanos then this is "innefective" at its best, and nothing to be called "nano-counter-setup". there is no fun when you engage a hostile, where he runs away to a safespot mwding away @8km/s punting a "gf" in local. NO it was not a "gf" - especialy if you check the killboards just to se that same guy ganked an indy few minutes later. so if someone asks you: -yes the nano-setup is ok as it is -yes there is a huge inballance in game mechanics (web/mwd/speedimps) -no it is not fun fighting like this -no there is nothing like honour behind it - actually its quite lame NO HONOUR
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.24 22:17:00 - [30] Quote from Jade Constantine on SHC after the latest CSM meeting: Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano's didn't formally get raised. I had a couple of informal chats with the devs on the subject though - and they are seeing some nano use as a problem (up in the 8000mps+ bracket) where the game logic breaks down. And that ties into some comments that Mistress Suffering has made previously on these forums. But its one of these areas where the solution if anything might be pretty radical with a whole bunch of knock on effects - like buffing ab's and making them the orbit module while mwds are for burn-outs and point to point travel. Its complicated though so no idea whats going to happen there ultimately. Reminded me a bit of the buff AF's discussion where ccp were saying this is an area that might need to re-write the webifier and scrambler logic first. Its probably fair to say that "nano" usage in the 3000-4000 mps mark isn't much of a problem, whereas the snakes, polycarbs, drugs and heat fueled 8000mps+ stuff does break the game engine a bit. Gonna keep posting this untill the muppets stop =D _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist.



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