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Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.23 16:36:00 -
[1]
Recently I have been thinking about forming a new corp.. Now I have been a CEO before and usually I say: been there, done that, not going back.. Anyway at the same time it would be an value-growth IPO, so it would be sort of a hybrid between a regular corp and an IPO (think of it as an IPO where the investors are corp-members).
What I am thinking is to start a new corp for mission-runners, and should be run by some sort of consortium of managers, to avoid the "one man does it all, and when he burns out..." situation..
In this corp I would then create e.g. 5000 shares @ 1misk each, and would offer these to corp members (lets assume I find some people to join). This is the starting capital for the company. So the start NAV is 5 billion.
The corp will then offer to buy loot from the (mission-running) members, and some fair value - 10%... and there would be arranged corp-mission running events (e.g. lvl 5 missions).
The benefit is like a mining corp that members don't have wait for there loot to sell or handle the logistics of it, and the corp gains some income..
At the end of each month, the corp's financials would be published (internally) so that everyone could see where the funds are located and what the NAV of the corp is.
Obviously since the members (hopefully) donate the 10% value of loot to the corp, the NAV would always increase and the shares would thereby increase in value.
The corp will futher more offer a buyback at 100% of NAV at any given time (pending isk-availability) and there will be a clause in the "sharholders-agreement" stating that if you leave the corp then you will have to sell the shares back to the corp. This way only corp members benefit from the growth in the corp.
Over time more members will join, and there will be a demand buy more shares since it wont take long before the members realice that though the shares they will get there "part" of the company gains. Therefor I will have to issue more shares as time go by each share expansion will result in an increased NAV but the increase in share-price (nav / share value) will slow down after a share issuing - this allows the company to grow.
The profit from each month can be used for either direct bennefits for the corp (ship replacement program, free ammo, etc) or indrect in increased share value.
To sum it all up, I am thinking about a corp, but running it like an IPO, and letting the growth of the corp be returned directly to the members (that have invested). With 100% clear and transparent financials.
Now this is where I need advice.
A: Do you know of any corp that has 100% open books (internally), and who has the financial side clearly documented ?
B: What are the issues/problems that I have missed ?
C: Do you like the idea ?
D: How can I improve on the plan ?
N.B. Not really sure if this is a corp or an IPO - so posted here due to the strong focus on the financial aspect.
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.23 16:37:00 -
[2]
*reserved*
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.23 17:53:00 -
[3]
In our own corp the books are open to just about everyone. New people, by definition, do not get open access to anything. Heck, some old people don't have access simply because it is unnecessary. However, in equal measure, my own activities and the corporate activities are online via Ray McCormack's Sexy wallet application. Thus 99% of those in the corp can readily review my own or corporate activity in game or out of game. There are several key things that make it so that the corporation works: - Minimize egos. - Clear ownership. - Facilitate Communication. Minimizing egos, I'm the most well known in our corporation however every chance I get I step back from interactions so that others can thrive in the limelight. I do not do hindsight criticism on decision makers and I make sure I do not erode a corp mates confidence or the confidence others have in him/her. Clear ownership, everything in the corporation belongs to me. Period, end of story, no debate. There are logs for when items are brought into the corporation and when logging activity an isk value is assigned. The isk is then paid to the corporation member from the corporate coffers. This also applies for outgoing inventory as well. I encourage corporation members to be prolific in acquisition and charge back to the corporation aggressive market prices. I make profit off enemies and neutrals, not on friends or corp mates. Besides, often enough profit margins are high enough from activities that if I get a corpmate selling me trit at 3.6 ipu I can find an activity to turn over that trit at 4+ ipu. When, or mostly if, they leave there is none of the usual debate over receiving one's just due. While someone is in the corp, they are rich, self sufficient, and confident. IMNSHO, if you wait till you are leaving to get your just due, then you, and possibly your corp, are naive to a fare thee well. Facilitate communication, always be available to educate, debate, and cooperate with the activities of any corp mate. My job as CEO is to be an enabler. I make sure that no matter what the corp members decide to do, in any given time period, I will have laid down foundations for that possibility. If not, I will have contacts that I can use to find out all I need to know to lead us to whatever goal has been set. Equally, I also dictate goals when the body politic seems directionless. (Refer back to laying down foundations.) Insist on standards of reporting, of communicating, and of collaborating. Never slack on these standards yourself and be critical of anyone (ANYONE) that does not comply. Do what you can to ensure that everyone shares in the team accomplishment, identity, and motivations. It's called esprit de corps. If your corp doesn't have it, there is an example of a pathetic corp. If you have never experienced it, yours is a very sad life.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Ricdic
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.06.23 17:53:00 -
[4]
I would seriously consider joining with Ricdic if you offered such an operation. Both for something new and interesting, but also the ability to give the shares part of Eve another meaning. Plus I can be a sucker for mission running.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=500043
Largest Empire Research Alliance in EVE! |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.23 18:59:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Shar Tegral
excellent post
Just to expand, there is no one clear route of right. In my current corporation. Everything is shared property for the express use of whoever needs it, so long as it furthers the corp ends. What you earn, is set aside. Portions are paid according to effort and idea, and the rest is reinvested back into the corporate coffers to expand even farther.
Sorta a modified communistic approach |
SoleDeo Gloria
Mission Runners Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.23 20:45:00 -
[6]
I like the idea very much as well - as my very small corp is dedicated to mission running.
I'm not sure if game mechanics would allow it, but it would be interesting to see this handled on an alliance level - a conglomeration of corps. Perhaps your managers could be CEO's of their own corps - and they would facilitate management of geographic regions, giving the Parent corp (and IPO starter) a broader reach and access to many markets.
Whether or not it was an actual alliance would not be as important to me as having the structure of an alliance.
This format is attractive to me as I would not lose my corp identity and regional footprint.
In any case - I look forward to continued discussions and would will make myself available should you proceed to the planning phase.
My EVE Online Screen Captures Blog |
Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.06.23 21:18:00 -
[7]
Like your idea.
A. Each corp is different. Providing a corporate Eve-mail to your m8's to let them see what the breakdown of the corporate NAV is worked for me. It's easy to do in-game and you can post it in your notes for future reference. Also, being that each shareholder would also be a member, sending it would be simplicity.
B. One problem you missed is that you have no guarantee of being able to buy back shares should a member leave the corp. Short of starting a new corporation, you would have no recourse should someone decide to crate an alt, step in and purchase a bunch of shares and split.
This also brings up the potential of sending in an army of alts. Purchasing enough shares for control of the company and merging them to perform a hostile takeover (including taking over the hangar and the wallet).
C. I like the idea, but in creating such a corp, you leave yourself vulnerable to attack financially.
D. Look for loopholes. Try to figure out ways to infiltrate your own corp. Call me in game with any questions.
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Professor Leech
Southern Light Entertainment
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.06.23 21:43:00 -
[8]
So what would the 5b NAV be used for? This point I'm not entirely clear on. Is it exclusively for corp member support programs, or would it be used for further investment in isk making projects?
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.23 21:58:00 -
[9]
First - thank you everyone for the feedback so far, I'll get back to it when I have given it some more thought. Keep it up ,-)
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
Like your idea.
Thank you
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
B. One problem you missed is that you have no guarantee of being able to buy back shares should a member leave the corp. Short of starting a new corporation, you would have no recourse should someone decide to crate an alt, step in and purchase a bunch of shares and split.
This also brings up the potential of sending in an army of alts. Purchasing enough shares for control of the company and merging them to perform a hostile takeover (including taking over the hangar and the wallet).
Yes I thought about that, it is annoying that you can not enforce a buyback.
I planed that the (operational) corp itself would issue a number of shares which would be distributed between the "board of managers", so that they effectively could lock down bpo's and in general keep the company safe.
This way the shares of the corp itself is under control..
The shares for sale would be shares created from an (holding) corp, with a similar name or something, these would be the shares that are traded.
Sooner or later someone is going to be upset with management and wants to leave without returning the shares (although they have no value to him since they don't give dividends) just to annoy the rest, or someone leaves eve and "forgets" to sell the shares back first. Short story is that over time shares are going to be lost.
To solve this problem there will be "share-exchange" programs when needed, in order to clean up the "mess". All the old shares will be traded for shares in a new (holding) corp - and of course only corp members is offered the new shares.
End result if someone breaks the shareholder-agreement they will sooner or later end up with worthless junk shares in there portfolio.
About the hostile takeover situation - that is true, if that is a (real) fear within the corp then it could be secured by having the "board of management" making sure they always own at least 50% of the issued shares. If you want control you need to pay, that goes both ways ;-)
Also since the shares only give voting rights to the (holding) corp there is no fear of a "blitz" takeover... the management board should be "safe" until next annual shareholder meeting.
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 22:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Professor Leech
So what would the 5b NAV be used for? This point I'm not entirely clear on. Is it exclusively for corp member support programs, or would it be used for further investment in isk making projects?
The 5b was just a fictive number that I came up with as an example...
The intention was just to make sure the company had a little operational isks..
Mainly I would say that a number like that should be the minimum liquid working-capital for the daily operations, and any investments would be based on the profit made within the corp and not this seed-capital.
Any investments or directions within the corp should be a the discression of the "board of managers"
So to answer your question: just for sitting in the wallet ;-)
But you got a point that it might be unclear in regards of direction from the outset, as such it could be arranged as a loan from me personally at 0% intrest for 6-12months, or until the corp gets started... Anyway that is details.
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Chira Netanru
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:06:00 -
[11]
I don't think you've evaluated the level of competition in this field, but you certainly could probably rope some newbs into it.
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Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Chira Netanru
I don't think you've evaluated the level of competition in this field, but you certainly could probably rope some newbs into it.
thats true... I have little knowledge of the existing mission-running corps, nor there internal operations.
Maybe you could be so kind as to enlighten me a little ? that is sort of why I created this topic ;-)
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Professor Leech
Southern Light Entertainment
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos
Originally by: Chira Netanru
I don't think you've evaluated the level of competition in this field, but you certainly could probably rope some newbs into it.
thats true... I have little knowledge of the existing mission-running corps, nor there internal operations.
Maybe you could be so kind as to enlighten me a little ? that is sort of why I created this topic ;-)
I think what Chira was trying to say is that there are lots of badly run mission running corps out there which don't make isk or don't return profits to their members. There is very little competition with your corp idea.
I think that the largest problem is finding decent mission runners. You might want to set aside some time for training and fitting advice for some members.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.23 22:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Professor Leech
I think that the largest problem is finding decent mission runners players.
Correct it for you.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 22:50:00 -
[15]
no doubt - recruitment is important, and the quality of the recruitment is vital.
However most (but not all) corps have this problem, and is not a problem unique in regards to this setup.
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Professor Leech
Southern Light Entertainment
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2008.06.23 23:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Professor Leech
I think that the largest problem is finding decent mission runners players.
Correct it for you.
QFT
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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Ava Santiago
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Posted - 2008.06.23 23:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Professor Leech
I think that the largest problem is finding decent mission runners players.
Correct it for you.
I would argue that the recruitment and effectiveness of Avatars is a management issue. (Sometimes of the management's expectations.)
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Ava Santiago
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Posted - 2008.06.23 23:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos
<Snip>
Fun idea. While this corp is "purportedly" focused on mission running, it would be a very interesting setup for most industrialist/trade/hauler corps.
Control would be very important. But assuming the founder(s) had enough cash to BUY 51% of the shares in the initial offering, it would be reasonable to assume that control could be maintained.
Players failing to return shares upon departure could be thwarted by reconstituting the corp. Dividend payouts could be used to provide cash to members as deemed appropriate, and/or wallets could be set up for corp expenditures - enabling you to track the "corp expenses/gains" from each player - by giving view rights (not access rights) to members you could effectively provide the open accounting. By giving people (or divisions) access to set hangers/wallets, you should be able to enable people to engage in corporate financial activity.
Competitive trading (same system) would be horrible - but it could easily be used to set up a multi-region trade/industry network with regional operators. In the mission running case, you could easily assign a squad of mission runners, a refiner/manufacturer to making ammo, and a trade specialist to offloading the "high value" mission drops - thereby assisting players in increasing their total revenue. Of course, getting the right people would be important - and there would need to be a method for determining market prices for goods.
On the cynical side though, if you are good at recruiting mission runners - offering them 0% of mineral value for the common "loot drops", a very low corporate tax rate and a place to hang out may net you personally more revenue - even if you do nothing but freight those goods to Jita. As someone pointed out, there are a plethora of mission corps.... but no real competition in the field.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.24 09:59:00 -
[19]
First - very good post Shar, thank you... and yes there are about 1001 ways to run a corp each with there own advantage.
Originally by: Shar Tegral
When, or mostly if, they leave there is none of the usual debate over receiving one's just due. While someone is in the corp, they are rich, self sufficient, and confident. IMNSHO, if you wait till you are leaving to get your just due, then you, and possibly your corp, are naive to a fare thee well.
I agree, my experience is however that it is quite common that people are that naive (or more that they never expect to leave the corp)..
Some heated debates can happen when someone who has donated a lot wants to leave and bring the stuff he "loaned" the corp with him.
This is why my model is focused around the share/ipo idea, so that when you leave the corp you get "your" part of the value the corp gained while you were part of the corp..
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.24 15:14:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos
This is why my model is focused around the share/ipo idea, so that when you leave the corp you get "your" part of the value the corp gained while you were part of the corp.
As you said, a variety of styles in this kind of thing. My methodology is all based around the excel function Now(). If a corp mate gives me resources, he gets resources in return Now(). Not Soon(tm), not Later(tm), not Collaterally(tm). Now(). "We may fly at the speed of light but business operates at the speed of right Now(dammit)."
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.24 15:45:00 -
[21]
Again as just an idea of another structure that I've seen work extremely well. Well okay. I'll run down the basic idea of how things get done in our corp.
A member has an idea, a business plan or strategy. It's presented to the directors for review. Directors approve or deny the idea. If approved a certain portion of funding is set aside out of the main assets to purchase all needed materials/items for this idea. The presenter is then given project manager status and effectively their own wallet to with as they please. The idea is there, they run with it. Hiring members as needed, or bringing in existing members as needed for support. Reports are required periodically, along with a request to achieve certain goals if possible but all in all, the project is their baby to do with as they please.
Every month a percentage (predetermined before project launch) is taken from the profits of that project to repay the initial starter capital until the project is green and then the percentage is reduced to much lower amount (predetermined before project launch). The rest of the profit is up to the project manager to handle. Some have taken all of the proceeds, others hire more people to expand, etc...
When the project is shut down the project manager take everything earned during their tenure, minus the a small directors/CEO cut should the person be leaving the corporation..again the amounts predetermined before project launch.
Some project fail as soon as they launch. Either too ambitious, or underfunded. Others go for great lengths and fill the corp coffers while making what were poor players, into rather rich ones. I cannot name names, but we have had a member go from just out of noob corp with limited production skills and very little assets. Onto creating their own partner corporation worth well in excess of 20bil.
...just food for thought that many models can work. It's the players that are let loose into those models that determine if it'll will work or not. |
Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.06.24 19:22:00 -
[22]
What I don't understand is why would someone join your corp to run missions?
Raven - check
Missiles - check
Standard t2 mods - check
What is it that you are offering to them?
Someone to chat with? Help with missions?
See I'm asking this as currently my main is the same alliance as you and I use my mission-running time for myself. Its my restock time, time to recover from fighting in 0.0 and low sec. And currently a great deal of runners I have found and talked with are like me, they use mission running in a separate corp or NPC corp as a secure isk machine.
Its also me time for myself where as when I'm on the main its about the alliance or corp.
Local and Covert cloaking Idea |
Sofitia Mourtos
GALAXIAN
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.24 22:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
... very insight full post ...
Thank you for that input Kazzac, tell me one thing - what happens in the case that the proposed project is so big that the corp can not handle the funding ?
Lets say someone came up with a business-plan for eve-domination of the tritanium trade (fictive example)
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WTB: Guardian BPO |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.06.25 00:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sofitia Mourtos
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
... very insight full post ...
Thank you for that input Kazzac, tell me one thing - what happens in the case that the proposed project is so big that the corp can not handle the funding ?
Lets say someone came up with a business-plan for eve-domination of the tritanium trade (fictive example)
Haven't had a situation where we couldn't boil down the plan to a project that can be funded. Basically in your example we would set the EVE domination plans as a project goal, but have the initial project focus on maybe a single system, constellation, or region. Often region in the case of market projects.
Since my tenure here however.. most market related projects fall under my purveyance and generally speaking if the idea if good enough I'll drop in personal funds to help bolster initial capital. |
Sasolian
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Posted - 2008.06.27 01:22:00 -
[25]
Sofitia Mourtos, I like the idea and i think it has a lot of merit, my concerns would be as follows -
1. People may have an issue with those not carrying their weight within the corp. Ie, Person A runs 50 missions in the same period that person B runs 10. Both loot the same amount per mission, both sell all their goods to the corp... so person B's profit at the end of the month will be higher due to Person As hard work.
2. How do you ensure members sell their goods to the corp rather than on the open market ?
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Clair Bear
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Posted - 2008.06.27 05:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bloody Rabbit
What I don't understand is why would someone join your corp to run missions?
Exactly this. Mission runners don't need to wait to sell their loot. Fair price - 10% is worse than "^A->reprocess+right click on dominix BPO+wait 3 hours+undock & self-destruct, repeat". It's not like someone grinding out 20 million an hour is desperate for an additional 1-2M in loot income, assuming they loot and salvage in the first place.
A 'pro' mission runner is not going to need help in a mission. They will likely have at least one trade and/or industrial alt. Missions don't scale well with more people in them because of travel time. And because of the way mission rat aggro works everyone needs to be able to solo that mission for best effect.
You might get newbies who don't have the skills or gear to complete a mission on their own, but they grow out of that stage extremely fast. By 4 months in the game a dedicated mission runner will be able to solo any L4 efficiently.
Your plan might be worth trying once L5s have a payout. Or if you can form impressive blobs to lock down 0.0 mission hubs.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.06.27 10:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Your plan might be worth trying once L5s have a payout.
See this is what I was thinking that a good mission running corp should offer. Level 5's and boredom are what plague a mission-runner, not lack of isk or needing help with level 4's. Til the point of vent and/or running weekly lvl 5's just for the fun of it, I don't see why anyone would want to share their grinding with you.
Local and Covert cloaking Idea |
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