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Prester Guil
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Posted - 2008.06.29 06:00:00 -
[1]
Hey all...
Was thinking that as the Raven is PvE mission king, would a Phoenix work as a rat hunter as well ? Assuming a (relatively) secure region of 0.0, how might these ships fare as belt ratters ? Is it feasable ? Or worth the expense ? Or just the silly whim of someone with a little too much free time this weekend...
Anyone have any experience with this idea ? Or even a constructive opinion ?
Thanks in advance. |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.06.29 06:03:00 -
[2]
Go for it. Let us know how it turns out. Be sure to fraps it. |
Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.06.29 06:09:00 -
[3]
Works perfectly.
However, the ebil player piwats are going to mistake you for an uber officer spawn, multiply tenfold, and come blow you up and post all over the Eve-O forums how amazing they are. There will be pictures, chest-beating and cheap laughs all around at your expense.
Dreads shoot other Capital ships, or POSes. Not too much else you can do with them.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Valandril
Caldari
Exiled.
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.29 06:13:00 -
[4]
Where you will be ratting sir ? I would love to come and "watch"
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Prester Guil
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Posted - 2008.06.29 07:08:00 -
[5]
Yesyes I know...
Lone dread = bright shiny gankmagnet surrounded by neon arrows declaring "Shoot me ! Shoot me !"  Hence the disclaimer "(relatively) secure region of 0.0"
Just looking for input on it's effectiveness as a ratter, compared to a well equipped Raven.
*now awaits the inevitable "there is no such thing as secure 0.0" statements...
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.06.29 07:18:00 -
[6]
Oh yes, Phoenix is an awesome ratter in 0.0. It blows the raven away, seriously. There is not comparison, you can make up to 50M/hr in good 0.0 using a Phoenix.
So where does bella celestia hang out these days? |
Vivisacia
Vivicide
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Posted - 2008.06.29 07:44:00 -
[7]
Works fine, as long as it's secure space.
Cadlari? FW? Alt? |
Valandril
Caldari
Exiled.
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.29 07:56:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Vivisacia
Works fine, as long as it's secure space.
That would be empire, especialy with amount of hotdropping in last months :P
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Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.29 08:00:00 -
[9]
phoenix does the damage of a caracal unless its in siege, and when its in siege it cannot move for 15 minutes and consumes stront, so what I'm getting at here is YES GO FOR IT COME TO FOUNTAIN AND SIEGE IN A BELT
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Prester Guil
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Posted - 2008.06.29 08:12:00 -
[10]
Okiecool...
Finally a nugget or two of info hidden amongst the old jokes 
"damage of a caracal" I assume thats due to explosion rad of the big torps. Is the damage that lame vs. a BS sized ship. I hope also that the caracal reference is a bit of an exaggeration (I hope I hope I hope...)
Also....what is this "hotdropping" ? Cyno-ambush ?
Thanks for your responses...
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Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.29 08:18:00 -
[11]
XL torpedoes from a non sieged dread will hit you for very little damage in any ship, XL torps from a sieged dread will bounce off anything smaller than a battleship that is moving faster than 50 metres a second, even a battleship slowboating at 120 m/s is not gonna be hurt by a sieged nag or phoenix
the only way it is viable is if you have a rapier or huginn webbing whatever your shooting down to as slow a speed as possible while target painting its signature up to massive proportions.
Dreads are for shooting other capitals and towers.
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.06.29 08:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 29/06/2008 08:34:59
Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 29/06/2008 08:26:59
Simply put, your damage will be pretty low.
Citadel Torps have an explosion velocity of 125 m/s, if a ship goes faster than that, it gets reduced damage.
They have an explosion radius of 1000m, an average BS has a sig-radius of under 500m meaning it'll take vastly reduced damage from the torp.
In other words, you're probably better of grabbing a Raven (you have Caldari BS 5 anyway) and using it. Probably faster and a lot cheaper to replace should something go wrong.
Alternatively, packing a bunch of targerpainter IIs on the Dread should help alleviate the sig-radius problem, but won't really help with the speed issue, maybe use Web-drones for that (to slow opponents down at range, even though its not much)
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Prester Guil
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Posted - 2008.06.29 08:36:00 -
[13]
Thanks guys....thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for.
I trained dread 2 just because I had BS5 already. Was hoping that I might find a non-POS reason to train higher and buy the ship. I'm glad now I asked before spending... |
Cribb
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2008.06.29 08:39:00 -
[14]
I'm not ratting in 0.0, but a dread is not the right way.
You have a better change using a carrier and they are big shiny "shoot me " sign too.
Most sane advice here would be use a raven, but hey it's EVE where not sane :)
As for hotdropping i think tey mean ganksquads consisting of black ops ships. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.29 09:24:00 -
[15]
Raven does more DPS on rats then a Pheonix and a lot less attractive as a target. Overall. . .I'd say its not faster to use one, costs a lot more, and is a risk.
Of course its a complete waste of an already poor performing ship - but thats my opinion.
And I too would like to see your fraps it. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.29 09:27:00 -
[16]
Yes one CAN rat in a Phoenix, but one would have to question WHY you'd consider such a move. While such ships can deliver fantastic DPS to objects the size of moons, they are not terribly effective at engaging anything below Capital ships. You simply will not be able to use seige mode (otherwise you're stuck for the 10 minute cycle) and as such your damage ouput would be on par with some of the crummier ratting battleships out there. The tank you can generate even outside seige mode is overkill to such an immense degree that it's not even funny. Even worse is the fact that you'll lose out on isk/hour simply because it takes you ages to target, pop, align and warp. Then we can throw out the issues regarding the propensity cap ships have for attracting every scoundrel within 20 jumps when left without support.
So, while YES a Pheonix CAN rat in 0.0 it's not a terribly good idea. When I'm in a cruise raven I can rat as fast as a 12 belt system generates rats and in blood/serpentis space Amarrian ships can rat significantly faster than that. |
Kinkie Yuuki
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Posted - 2008.06.29 09:48:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 29/06/2008 09:51:38
[Phoenix, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Inertia Stabilizers II
Capital Shield Booster I
Caldari Navy Ballistic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Stasis Webifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Small Tractor Beam I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Ogre II x5
There you go, does 617 damage with over 12k volley damage out of siege with kinetic missiles. Inertial stabilizer to reduce the high align time, or replace it with whatever you want.
The big problem is somehow you need the rats to get within web range! |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.29 09:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki
Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 29/06/2008 09:49:57
[Phoenix, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Capital Shield Booster I
Gist C-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Stasis Webifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Small Tractor Beam I
Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Ogre II x5
There you go, does 617 damage with over 12k volley damage out of siege with kinetic missiles. Inertial stabilizer to reduce the high align time, or replace it with whatever you want.
The big problem is somehow you need the rats to get within web range!
If your worrying about webrange why not just fly a Torp raven and deal 1k DPS? That's the real flaw with the idea - not that the ship can't do it but simply that the function would be fufilled better by other ships. Hell, Marauders are custom built for ratting and mission running and cost a bit less to boot.
I mean, I don't want to dissuade someone from ratting in a Dred. I'm sure most Dred owners curse their choice to train it when the realize all they did is purchase a billion ISK anti space station cannon. |
Draahk Chimera
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.06.29 09:56:00 -
[19]
As a general rule, as your skillpoints go up your .0 ratting ships should get smaller. First bc then hacs then maybe go 1 size up again to command ship, if you can "live" with the extra align speed after getting used to the hac. Generally you should use the opposite race then your rats. That is cerb/nighthawk for serpentins (works on guristas too), demios/astarte on guristas (works on serpentis too), sac on angels and muninn on blood and sanshas. Zealot/abs works on sanshas because of the damage bonus but the tank suffers as compared to muninn. Not so good on blood since they neut you and we all know what happens to neuted amarr ships.
A carrier works in a single .0 pve situtaion; if you find an open space combat site. Remember to bring all sizes drones to handle all sizes rats. Medium t2 drones for frigs, heavy t2 drones for cruisers and fighters for bs. Also remember that shield tanking is not cap stable so chimera no good for pve situation. Good luck. |
Kinkie Yuuki
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Posted - 2008.06.29 10:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 29/06/2008 10:06:11
Originally by: Derek Sigres
If your worrying about webrange why not just fly a Torp raven and deal 1k DPS? That's the real flaw with the idea - not that the ship can't do it but simply that the function would be fufilled better by other ships. Hell, Marauders are custom built for ratting and mission running and cost a bit less to boot.
I mean, I don't want to dissuade someone from ratting in a Dred. I'm sure most Dred owners curse their choice to train it when the realize all they did is purchase a billion ISK anti space station cannon.
Are you asking me? I would fly a torp raven and deal 1k dps and the dread idea would never even get pass my stupid idea filter in my brain, thus I wouldn't have even considered it nor knew I was thinking about it in my subconcious mind. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.29 10:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki
Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 29/06/2008 10:06:11
Originally by: Derek Sigres
If your worrying about webrange why not just fly a Torp raven and deal 1k DPS? That's the real flaw with the idea - not that the ship can't do it but simply that the function would be fufilled better by other ships. Hell, Marauders are custom built for ratting and mission running and cost a bit less to boot.
I mean, I don't want to dissuade someone from ratting in a Dred. I'm sure most Dred owners curse their choice to train it when the realize all they did is purchase a billion ISK anti space station cannon.
Are you asking me? I would fly a torp raven and deal 1k dps and the dread idea would never even get pass my stupid idea filter in my brain, thus I wouldn't have even considered it nor knew I was thinking about it in my subconcious mind.
Though I quoted you the question was not really directed at you. It's more of a general question one should always ask. Yes most ships can perform most tasks but that doesn't mean it will do it well. If you have a better and cheaper solution why go for the inferior and vastly more expensive route? It seems completely contrary to normal logic.
BUT, we all know people DO rat in Dreds and Carriers (the carrier at least makes a bit of sense) so I guess the logic train is not universal.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.06.29 11:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
As a general rule, as your skillpoints go up your .0 ratting ships should get smaller. First bc then hacs then maybe go 1 size up again to command ship, if you can "live" with the extra align speed after getting used to the hac. Generally you should use the opposite race then your rats. That is cerb/nighthawk for serpentins (works on guristas too), demios/astarte on guristas (works on serpentis too), sac on angels and muninn on blood and sanshas. Zealot/abs works on sanshas because of the damage bonus but the tank suffers as compared to muninn. Not so good on blood since they neut you and we all know what happens to neuted amarr ships.
A carrier works in a single .0 pve situtaion; if you find an open space combat site. Remember to bring all sizes drones to handle all sizes rats. Medium t2 drones for frigs, heavy t2 drones for cruisers and fighters for bs. Also remember that shield tanking is not cap stable so chimera no good for pve situation. Good luck.
nice mittens there, gentle yet firm. |
Crellion
Art of War
Cruel Intentions
|
Posted - 2008.06.29 11:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kinkie Yuuki
Edited by: Kinkie Yuuki on 29/06/2008 09:51:38
[Phoenix, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Inertia Stabilizers II
Capital Shield Booster I
Caldari Navy Ballistic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Stasis Webifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Rift Torpedo I
Small Tractor Beam I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Ogre II x5
There you go, does 617 damage with over 12k volley damage out of siege with kinetic missiles. Inertial stabilizer to reduce the high align time, or replace it with whatever you want.
The big problem is somehow you need the rats to get within web range!
i think I can pop that in a Crow with Em light missles  |
Bronson Hughes
The. Conspiracy
|
Posted - 2008.06.29 11:30:00 -
[24]
If you feel you must use a capital ship to go 'ratting with in 0.0, grab a buddy (or a second account), park it right outside of a deathstar POS in the system you want to 'rat at, and assign fighters to your buddy/second account. It's safer than using a dread (but still not completely safe mind you) and probably more effective although it does require more training. |
Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.06.29 13:42:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Gimpb on 29/06/2008 13:45:53
Edited by: Gimpb on 29/06/2008 13:45:15
Edited by: Gimpb on 29/06/2008 13:44:23
Can it handle the rats? yes, but only because of drones
Is it feasible? yes
Worth the expense? no
Will it turn you into a gigantic bullseye? Yep, youbetcha
If you want to use a cap to rat, put a carrier at a pos and assign fighters to an AF, intie, HAC, or something like that. It'll be cheaper and a whole lot more effective than using a dread.
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