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Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:26:00 - [31] Crewmen who were not, notably, pressed into service on their ships via use of biological agents, collars, whips and chains. Their crewmen had a choice whether or not to be present on Ushra'Khan ships during the tournaments (and don't give me that "well they would have lost their jobs and their livelihoods" crap - even if the Ushra'Khan pilots did fire them, allow me to assure you from many accounts from my own crew members that it's actually logistically easier to get another job on a passing pilot's craft than it is to retire) and it was at their own risk that they participated. At least, if they died, they died of their own chosing. I can't say that for many of those who have died on Amarr ships when they go down. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Daziel Iaar Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:30:00 - [32] According to your virtues they should never of been in a position to waste their life needlessly in the first place, let alone choose whether to crew the ship or find alternative employment. "His Will Be Done"
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:33:00 - [33] Originally by: Daziel Iaar According to your virtues they should never of been in a position to waste their life needlessly in the first place, let alone choose whether to crew the ship or find alternative employment. Either you've completely misinterpreted my "virtues" (and let's face it, if there's one thing you Loyalists are good at, it's misinterpreting), or you're just being nonsensical. I have never said that a man does not have a right to risk his life. I am simply stating that you can't blame the Ushra'Khan for celebrating their success in a conflict where both sides knew the risk. PIE and CVA have often glorified their conquest of Providence (you have, for instance, medals and decorations for "acts of valour" during the campaign, or merely turning up for it) which no doubt claimed far more lives than the Ushra'Khan could ever manage in one of these tournaments. Who's the hypocrite now? ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Daziel Iaar Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:42:00 - [34] Edited by: Daziel Iaar on 01/07/2008 17:47:53 I fail to see how i am being hypocritical, i've not said one thing then done another. There was a reason to fight for providence, although i was not with PIE at that time, while there was no reason for Ushra'khan to fight in a tournament and throw away their crews lives, there was no purpose. Let me phrase this so you understand it simpler since Gallente education must be poor nowdays- Fighting to take providence away from savages and bring redemption and a haven for people who live there or nearby = Worth sacrificing your life for. Fighting to appease your master and bring prestige and isk to your immortal pilot = Not worth throwing your life away. There is nothing hypocritical here other than you saying Ushra'khan do not slaughter innocents when they've recently done so. "His Will Be Done"
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.01 17:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Daziel Iaar Fighting to take providence away from savages and bring redemption and a haven for people who live there or nearby = Worth sacrificing your life for. Fighting to appease your master and bring prestige and isk to your immortal pilot = Not worth throwing your life away. There is nothing hypocritical here other than you saying Ushra'khan do not slaughter innocents when they've recently done so. Now you're doing the typical Amarrian thing of assuming that "worthiness" is an objective, rather than a subjective concept, and also that simply your reason for fighting is validated simply because it's the opinion of an Amarr, and therefore it must be valid. Both are utterly devoid of any validity. Providence is in the hands of savages - CVA are nothing but. Ushra'Khan were providing a haven for those who live there, and now most of the people who were under their protection are enslaved or dead. They fought for what they thought was right, and their view has every bit as much validity as yours - more, in fact, since they weren't fighting in the name of a fictional deific entity. If the decision of the crew in the Ushra'Khan ships to throw their life down for the glory of their pilots was unworthy, at least it was their decision to make. All the slaves who have died for your "worthy causes" would probably have something to say about the worthiness of their deaths. But they can't now, can they? ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Daziel Iaar Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.01 18:23:00 - [36] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Originally by: Daziel Iaar Fighting to take providence away from savages and bring redemption and a haven for people who live there or nearby = Worth sacrificing your life for. Fighting to appease your master and bring prestige and isk to your immortal pilot = Not worth throwing your life away. There is nothing hypocritical here other than you saying Ushra'khan do not slaughter innocents when they've recently done so. Now you're doing the typical Amarrian thing of assuming that "worthiness" is an objective, rather than a subjective concept, and also that simply your reason for fighting is validated simply because it's the opinion of an Amarr, and therefore it must be valid. Both are utterly devoid of any validity. Providence is in the hands of savages - CVA are nothing but. Ushra'Khan were providing a haven for those who live there, and now most of the people who were under their protection are enslaved or dead. They fought for what they thought was right, and their view has every bit as much validity as yours - more, in fact, since they weren't fighting in the name of a fictional deific entity. If the decision of the crew in the Ushra'Khan ships to throw their life down for the glory of their pilots was unworthy, at least it was their decision to make. All the slaves who have died for your "worthy causes" would probably have something to say about the worthiness of their deaths. But they can't now, can they? You keep bringing my race and religion into this discussion, i'm simply going off what the minmatar claim they strive for as well as what you state Ushra'khan do and do not do. It is simple according to you Ushra'khan do not tolerate the slaughter of innocents, yet they are happy to have thousands of crew die for nothing but a tournament. That is the truth and it is undeniable. Now i am tired of going around in a circle to try and explain why your statement was invalid and hypocritical, therefore i shall cease replying to any further statements as i am clearly wasting my time. "His Will Be Done"
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.01 18:46:00 - [37] Well what would you know anyway. You're a member of PIE - it's not exactly like you're intelligent enough to understand reasoned debate anyway. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Kade Jeekin Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.07.01 18:46:00 - [38] Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 01/07/2008 18:49:09 Andreus Ixiris, not wanting to interrupt too much your expert show of PIE-baiting, I'd like to correct one error before it gets accepted as truth. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris ... now most of the people who were under [Ushra'Khan] protection [in Providence] are enslaved or dead. This is not true. Most of the people in {edit: our bit of} Providence were able to be evacuated to safe havens and the Republic, both before the fall of Unity and in the brief counter-attack where we were able to take it back for a few days. Other than that, please carry on. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Major Death Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.07.02 10:30:00 - [39] Lets hope you can do more than kill helpless people. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:47:00 - [40] Originally by: Kade Jeekin Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 01/07/2008 18:49:09 Andreus Ixiris, not wanting to interrupt too much your expert show of PIE-baiting, I'd like to correct one error before it gets accepted as truth. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris ... now most of the people who were under [Ushra'Khan] protection [in Providence] are enslaved or dead. This is not true. Most of the people in {edit: our bit of} Providence were able to be evacuated to safe havens and the Republic, both before the fall of Unity and in the brief counter-attack where we were able to take it back for a few days. Other than that, please carry on. Funny how unembelished history hardly ever makes a good slogan. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.02 20:51:00 - [41] Indeed Pilot Jenneth. I have found that each of the events in history are the result of an almost infinite chain of causes and events that often leave the hands of all sides in a conflict bloodied and to some extent, culpable. It is often depressing for me to consider that the enslavement of the Matari and the other races we Amarrians have taken was somehow fated to happen, mostly because of things that werent even predictable. Now, today, we pay the price for the actions of our most distant ancestors. Note that I do not speak of "the price" as a monetary or physical price, though that too, is there. I speak of the price our hubris and arrogance has extracted of us. Because of actions and events that we, today, could not and cannot effect, we have fallen into the sins of greed and vanity and lust. It will be a long and difficult path to restore honor to our Empire, but I believe it can be done. Perhaps, if there is still hope for Amarr (and I will NEVER give up hope of redemption for anyone) there, too can be hope for the redemption of others. Perhaps the Gallente and Caldari can forgive each other, and learn to co-exist. Perhaps they, and we, can learn from the mistakes and failures of our past and make a better, more vibrant place in our cluster. It is said that we are all the children of God, and that He loves us all equally, but I feel that sometimes, looking down from Heaven as He does, He must be terribly disappointed with us. May the Light of God shine for you in your times of need.

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