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Ore Stealing (risk vs. Reward)

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Mar Cerul	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:03:00 - [1] So I found a very professional ore thief last night. He had scoped it out in advance with a frigate. He rolls us in a hauler, of course we have enough fire power to blast his arse to oblivion if he takes it. He starts to warp away, as soon as his engines do the blast for him to go to the station he takes almost a full jetcan worth of ore, turns red on his way out. Our guys follow him to the station, there was only one ( planned ahead of time ), thanks to warp within 0, he docked instantly and the guys we had at the station didn't even have time to lock him. He waits for 15 minutes and does it again. I fail to see the risk in this maneuver if done correctly. In fact if you go mining solo, stealing ore is probably more profitable then actually mining it. And since there is 0 chance of dieing..... I am somewhat new to the way this guy did this. I've seen can flippers and everything else, but never done so well. Was it intended to be this easy to steal stuff from people. IMO is seems against what CCP wanted in high security in the first place. Before you say get locked cans....pls...don't use this argument, we all know why we don't use these. For now we just keep more haulers then necessary around. Which lowers production a lot over a larger period of time. Just sucks there is nothing we can do at all to prevent it. The guy steals from us and there is no way to retaliate. It just seems really unbalanced.
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:10:00 - [2] Originally by: Mar Cerul Was it intended to be this easy to steal stuff from people. Was it intended to use jetcans for mining/storage? Originally by: Mar Cerul Before you say get locked cans....pls...don't use this argument, we all know why we don't use these. For now we just keep more haulers then necessary around. Which lowers production a lot over a larger period of time. Just sucks there is nothing we can do at all to prevent it. The guy steals from us and there is no way to retaliate. It just seems really unbalanced. You insist on using an unsafe and un-intended game mechanic instead of safe and intended game mechanics; other people are using that fact. Adapt, move, or live with it - but please don't complain. Estel Arador corp services (high-sec POS/JCs) just 120M isk!
Mar Cerul	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:29:00 - [3] Originally by: Estel Arador You insist on using an unsafe and un-intended game mechanic instead of safe and intended game mechanics; other people are using that fact. Adapt, move, or live with it - but please don't complain. Not complaining, I'm just going to join them now. I can actually make money faster this way. No chance of losing my ship either. Unless they want empire on them.
Suvliana Minmatar 21st Highland Regiment	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Mar Cerul Originally by: Estel Arador You insist on using an unsafe and un-intended game mechanic instead of safe and intended game mechanics; other people are using that fact. Adapt, move, or live with it - but please don't complain. Not complaining, I'm just going to join them now. I can actually make money faster this way. No chance of losing my ship either. Unless they want empire on them. If you are in the same corp as them, they can attack you freely without concord interfering. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Lord Dracon	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:38:00 - [5] Since you allready got your mates around: have a corpmate in a fast frig and bump him. Might not work but everytime, but if you manage to pop him a few times, he will go look for an easier prey.
Modrak Vseth Veto.	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:43:00 - [6] You can target him without getting aggression at anytime. Just like he prealligns, you can pretarget. Have one person bump him from the front just to slow him down a little and another person that has him pretargeted can get a point on him as soon as he turns blinky.
Monkey Saturday Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:54:00 - [7] Learn to bump. You can bump a hauler with a frig and it'll have a very hard time warping. If you've got 2 or 3 bumping him, well, he's not going to have a fun day. He doesn't need to be agro'd to you either. If you know he's there for your stuff, just bump away.
Mar Cerul	Posted - 2008.06.30 14:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord Dracon Since you allready got your mates around: have a corpmate in a fast frig and bump him. Might not work but everytime, but if you manage to pop him a few times, he will go look for an easier prey. This is the only legitimate answer I got from people. The problem is, this almost never works.
Mar Cerul	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Monkey Saturday Learn to bump. You can bump a hauler with a frig and it'll have a very hard time warping. If you've got 2 or 3 bumping him, well, he's not going to have a fun day. He doesn't need to be agro'd to you either. If you know he's there for your stuff, just bump away. he is already in warp when he takes it. only bumping is gonna be at the station, but this can prevent him from stealing I guess. At least until he get into warp.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:17:00 - [10] There is not much you can do when it pulls it off, but what you CAN do is look at him as he's aligning so you know what he's going to warp to and just sit in his way, most of the times between the can and the station. What also works is to bump him real good with an MWD cruiser just before he does it so he moves WAY out of range of the can, do that a few times and he'll prolly go elsewhere.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:26:00 - [11] Have your hauler make more runs. You are obviously allowing the jetcan to fill completely before your hauler makes a single round trip, almost as if everyone is either mining or ratting in your operation. If you haul more often, the best he can steal in a 15 minute timeframe is chickenfeed. Keep the can open with a copied bookmark and empty it as fast as the hauler can make round trips instead. Good teamplay also means shifting priorities and efficiencies to suit the situation. In this case that includes minimizing the ore lost to theft as this thief is actually interested in the ore rather than the pew pew.
Kachak Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:31:00 - [12] Edited by: Kachak on 30/06/2008 15:31:22 Originally by: Mar Cerul He had scoped it out in advance with a frigate. He rolls us in a hauler, of course we have enough fire power to blast his arse to oblivion if he takes it. I assume you didnt have "enough firepower" when he actually flipped? And then he left his can with you to get a hauler, and thats when you gathered your firepower mateys and began waiting for him near his can? If that is what happened, here's what I'd advice: if you have the firepower gathered and ready anyway, you should have just flipped your ore back instantly, and get a hauler to take it to safety, while the "firepower" part is now aggroed to the thief and waiting. This would of course be safe only if you're sure he's alone, or he'll come back in a hauler or frig, or anything / any gang you are sure your "enough firepower" would actually be able to take care of. Originally by: Mar Cerul He waits for 15 minutes and does it again. Now, again assuming you didn't know what he'd come in with in the first place, so your gang did nothing and sat around his can waiting - and he shows up alone in a hauler: Well i admit its a bit tricky to bump a well done in & out manouvre like the one you described, especially if you're unprepared or dont know what to expect. But now you know he's in a hauler, you should have grabbed back the rest of your ore and hauled it away. Why give him a second chance? I would understand if you were unsure of your pvp chances against this guy, but you seem quite certain of your self, hell you're even station camping him if i read it correctly, although you have no clue what ship he'll undock next.. But you wait the 15 mins, watch him come again, and slap your ore off of you twice. Mate you could have even just get your ore back when he was docked, and dock and wait the 15 mins yourself, even if you were alone. Long story short, quite a facepalm moment there, imho. Cheers
Kelotina Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:38:00 - [13] Why don't you just use a secure can? Holds just as much, but they won't be able to do anything with it without the password.
Lord Haur Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Kelotina Why don't you just use a secure can? Holds just as much, but they won't be able to do anything with it without the password. Jetcan: 27,500 m3, can be dropped anywhere GSC (largest jettisonable container): 3,900 m3, can only be dropped/anchored 5,000 m3 from other cans/roids etc. etc. (if unanchored, stealing hauler can just scoop it IIRC) Ummm.... other than the password, there are no advantages for using a GSC.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.06.30 15:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Mar Cerul I am somewhat new to the way this guy did this. I've seen can flippers and everything else, but never done so well. Was it intended to be this easy to steal stuff from people. IMO is seems against what CCP wanted in high security in the first place. Actually, it's the existence of can flippers that lets you jetcan mine in the first place. Jetcans were never meant to be used in this way, and there is a devquote saying that they were going to prevent this exploit, but actually decided to leave it in place because the risk of theft balanced it out. So yes - CCP specifically intend for people to steal from jetcans in high-sec, and it's actually a critical part of the balance of things. Also, you never used to get aggro for theft either, so at least you have a little more recourse now. But since you asked about risk vs. reward, perhaps you should look in the mirror? You seem to want to squeeze every last bit of potential yield out of your mining, but without inviting any risk to yourself. There are many options open to you. If you mine into your own cargohold, "as nature intended" , you are 100% safe - there is zero risk. You can then take a few steps to increase your reward, but invite some risk. Let's look at some of your quotes: Quote: Before you say get locked cans....pls...don't use this argument, we all know why we don't use these. Presumably, "why you don't use these" is that they hold less than a jetcan while not being as convenient. So what you're saying is you're not willing to trade the extra yield that comes from jetcans, for the extra (in fact complete) security that comes with secure cans. Risk vs. reward, and you chose high-risk high-reward. Then complained when the non-zero risk manifested itself. Quote: For now we just keep more haulers then necessary around. Which lowers production a lot over a larger period of time. Yes, that's the same mechanism at play - by keeping more haulers around you reduce the risk, but also reduce your reward. Quote: Just sucks there is nothing we can do at all to prevent it. The guy steals from us and there is no way to retaliate. It just seems really unbalanced. If anything, it would be unbalanced if it was the other way around. Who said that miners have the right to uninterrupted jetcan mining (and in fact, as I noted above, this is not the case and it's definitely not something you can take for granted)? It's up to you to choose the point on the risk-reward scale that you feel happy with, and you have identified two different scenarios; the one that's high in both, which is the one you're complaining about, and the one with low risk for moderate reward where you keep all the haulers together. Both are acceptable and viable, and it's your call at the end of the day as to how much risk you want to invite into your venture. Though really there should be little a single ore thief can do to a well-organised mining op. Especially when he sits in the station for 15 minutes at a time, when you can mine uninterrupted, and he keeps coming back with exactly the same modus operandi, and so is easy to predict and counter.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.06.30 16:21:00 - [16] There's MANY options you have to secure your assets from can flippers, I should know... I meet these people on a daily basis, and none of them use secure cans. What they DO use is their brains and they put in a little bit of effort. If you don't want to put in the effort to think about how to secure you stuff don't whine when you lose it, as with everything in EVE; being smart pays off, being passive means you lose.
Mar Cerul	Posted - 2008.06.30 17:57:00 - [17] The decision me and my buddies made was to use cargo expanders on our mining barges. This way we can keep more ore then the crappy secure cans. My hauler can collect dust I guess.
IVeige	Posted - 2008.06.30 18:08:00 - [18] its not about risk vs reward when you are an ore stealer.. Its more about reward vs time to find someone to steal from it.
Nareth Mordonis	Posted - 2008.06.30 18:15:00 - [19] There is another easy solution. If your corp doesn't have the entire belt to themselves, move elsewhere. If someone else shows up, especially in a hauler, grab all cans immediatly. If you have an industrial hauler equip some tractors and pull the cans in. There is plenty you can do to reduce the risk of jetcan mining if you simply pay attention.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.06.30 18:51:00 - [20] Originally by: IVeige its not about risk vs reward when you are an ore stealer.. Its more about reward vs time to find someone to steal from it. THIS. The risk/reward is balanced for the MINER (i.e. use a jetcan or not), not the ore thief. For the ore thief, it's time spent/reward. _ Vote on issue of mineral and moon material balance !
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.07.01 05:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Mar Cerul I fail to see the risk in this maneuver if done correctly. Re-read your own words. There's no risk if done correctly. That means the risk is screwing it up. It's still a risky endeavour. As to your second conclusion: that it's better to be the thief than the miner... well, duh! ... .. .
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.07.01 07:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Mar Cerul The decision me and my buddies made was to use cargo expanders on our mining barges. This way we can keep more ore then the crappy secure cans. My hauler can collect dust I guess. If you insist on firing as many mining lasers on the rocks, yes. Like i said, just sacrifice one miner full time and have that person shuttle his hauler non stop back and forth between the station and the jetcan. That way the most you can lose to thieves is about 10 minutes worth of mining. Peanuts. Depending on the size of your operation, and whether you have a mining foreman in your fleet, this is actually more efficient than fitting expanders, because that way the remaining miners can continue to use MLU's in their low slots. And consider having one person in your corp run level 1 missions that the rest of you mine out once they are cleared. Only a few ore thieves ever bother investing in probes.
Jojo Redana	Posted - 2008.07.01 08:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Kachak I assume you didnt have "enough firepower" when he actually flipped? And then he left his can with you to get a hauler, and thats when you gathered your firepower mateys and began waiting for him near his can? Read the OP's post again. This was not the case. -- I'm lost in space
Jojo Redana	Posted - 2008.07.01 08:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Estel Arador Was it intended to use jetcans for mining/storage? Was it intented to be able to steal items () and get away with it? Why there's a timer if they cannot shoot back at the first place? CCP could just remove the aggression timer so it would be same thing. ) The item might be ore/minerals/loot/wrecks or something else. Quote: You insist on using an unsafe and un-intended game mechanic instead of safe and intended game mechanics; other people are using that fact. Adapt, move, or live with it - but please don't complain. We have every right to complain. Please don't ever tell me what i can do and cannot.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.07.01 08:21:00 - [25] Originally by: Jojo Redana We have every right to complain. Please don't ever tell me what i can do and cannot. As we have every right to point out where you didn't put in the effort about securing your assets and in the end completely don't care about your problems. Because if you don't care about your assets, why should we.
Jojo Redana	Posted - 2008.07.01 08:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Tzar'rim As we have every right to point out where you didn't put in the effort about securing your assets and in the end completely don't care about your problems. Because if you don't care about your assets, why should we. Hmm.. I haven't seen a ore-thief in a long time.. oh wait, they get shot at the gates. My assets are safe enough, thanks :)
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.07.01 08:35:00 - [27] Why should I/we get shot at the gates?
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.07.01 09:08:00 - [28] Edited by: Amastat on 01/07/2008 09:14:17 Edited by: Amastat on 01/07/2008 09:09:23 To the OP: your story is mildy vauge, but it sounds like the typical BM trick where the guy sets up BM's that give him a straight line from one BM to your can, and to a SS/dock? Basically he warps in, drops out of warp, turns his engines on, and insta warps right as your ore is scooped up. That's the one? Stop whining - develop countermeasures. The most simple way to screw him over is to bump him, simple as that. Haulers are slow and dumb, they can only go so fast, and they have a ton of mass. If you have a few buds in bump-bats, he won't be able to use that trick very well. Just have your mates in heavy ships basically huddle around your can, as he drops out of warp, he may end up bumping off one of them. Another and incredibly simple way to screw this tactic over is to have a buddy in a fast ship with a tractor beam fitting and force him to either rethink his plan, or play tag with your orecan. This works great if you also have some heavy hitters with you to protect the can - the thief would have to somehow get his hauler to go faster then 500MS if he plans to catch the can, but would get fried by your guard by the time he actually got it. You also at least have the right to fire on the guy because he gets flagged - stop the whining.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.07.01 09:16:00 - [29] No, what he does is be passive aligned to the station, and be positioned so that when he gets up to speed he's in range of the can. Then start the warp, wile he's still accelerating towards warp speed he'll grab the ore at the last second, JUST before he warps. If you have just targeted him there's nothing you can do about it. What you CAN do is sit in his way so he cannot accelerate to warp speed when aligned. That and not get into the situation in the first place ofcourse.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.07.01 09:18:00 - [30] Edited by: Amastat on 01/07/2008 09:18:56 Originally by: Tzar'rim No, what he does is be passive aligned to the station, and be positioned so that when he gets up to speed he's in range of the can. Then start the warp, wile he's still accelerating towards warp speed he'll grab the ore at the last second, JUST before he warps. If you have just targeted him there's nothing you can do about it. What you CAN do is sit in his way so he cannot accelerate to warp speed when aligned. That and not get into the situation in the first place ofcourse. That's basically what I was saying, but without the first SS to warp in then. What I was talking about is so quick, they barly see it coming and don't have any time to react to it - what your saying can be seen. And there is stuff that can be done about it - a tractor beam is probably the most easy solution. Unless he has a 10mn AB and a buncha nano's on all his lows, he isn't going to catch it anytime soon - and probably would have a hell of a time catching it even with the AB. ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu

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