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Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.07.07 13:35:00 - [1] This is quite amazing, even for this country (UK) these days! Drivers blamed for boys' deaths So ... They'd stolen the take away meal They fled in a car they shouldn't have been driving (being 15 years old) ... yet it's someone else's fault they died. At any point they could have stopped and faced the music. No wonder no-one will get involved in anything any more. We're just a nation of individuals, going about their business with no sense of community.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.07.07 13:35:00 - [2] This is quite amazing, even for this country (UK) these days! Drivers blamed for boys' deaths So ... They'd stolen the take away meal They fled in a car they shouldn't have been driving (being 15 years old) ... yet it's someone else's fault they died. At any point they could have stopped and faced the music. No wonder no-one will get involved in anything any more. We're just a nation of individuals, going about their business with no sense of community.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:13:00 - [3] Well this is the type of thing you can expect to happen if you decide to take the law into your own hand. I am not saying that the guys doing the chasing should be needless held accountable for kids deaths, but if it is proven that they intentionally caused a wreck that caused the fatalities then they should be prosecuted for man slaughter. One of the primary problems with vigilante justice is that you must take responsibility for your own actions. Now, if the idiots just drove of the road, because they were driving recklessly and died because they were not wearing seatbelts, then no charges should be upheld against the workers from the (I am assuming) drive through restaurant. In the end all they should have probably done was take down the liscense plate and call the police. I mean getting in a car chase over a drive through meal is kinda.... Slade
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:15:00 - [4] I blame Hollywood, what is it with people and car chases? Take down the number, call the cops, it's a shit meal. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Well this is the type of thing you can expect to happen if you decide to take the law into your own hand. I am not saying that the guys doing the chasing should be needless held accountable for kids deaths, but if it is proven that they intentionally caused a wreck that caused the fatalities then they should be prosecuted for man slaughter. One of the primary problems with vigilante justice is that you must take responsibility for your own actions. Now, if the idiots just drove of the road, because they were driving recklessly and died because they were not wearing seatbelts, then no charges should be upheld against the workers from the (I am assuming) drive through restaurant. In the end all they should have probably done was take down the liscense plate and call the police. I mean getting in a car chase over a drive through meal is kinda.... Slade It's not as if he ran them off the road, all I see is followed.
Slanty McGarglefist	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Fink Angel This is quite amazing, even for this country (UK) these days! Drivers blamed for boys' deaths So ... They'd stolen the take away meal They fled in a car they shouldn't have been driving (being 15 years old) ... yet it's someone else's fault they died. At any point they could have stopped and faced the music. No wonder no-one will get involved in anything any more. We're just a nation of individuals, going about their business with no sense of community. I read the article and the two in the other car are responsible for the kids' death how exactly? The kids knew they were being followed, panicked and then drove into a tree? Haha. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Remata Lakira Terran Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:31:00 - [7] Message to all criminals: you can commit any crime you want, jsut make sure that you 'sprain' your ankle or drive into a river or something so that the Labour s****in Downing street will treat you like the victim. God I can't wait for one of the other more sensible parties to take over.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:32:00 - [8] Blame the parents for being idiots and raising kids like that. If not them blame the kids and give the following a slap on the wrist for not calling the police.
Dihania Gallente Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:46:00 - [9] You guys missed this: Quote: The cars had collided on a dark country road as Olgun attempted to overtake after crossing a double white line But yeah, it's also the kids fault and def.. the parents! . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Slanty McGarglefist I read the article and the two in the other car are responsible for the kids' death how exactly? The kids knew they were being followed, panicked and then drove into a tree? Haha. It's not very clear but the kids may have been run off the road. From the linked article: "The cars had collided on a dark country road as Olgun attempted to overtake after crossing a double white line, said Mr Paxton." So, if the guy giving chase did run them off the road then yeah...he contributed to their deaths. Sure those kids are cretins but you cannot drive someone off the road for ú14 (if he did indeed drive them off the road). We are having a similar deal in the states albeit even more overt. Texas recently changed their laws to allow you to use deadly force if someone invades your home. A guy saw someone invade his neighbor's house, called police and chatted with them awhil then went outside and shot both of the burglars with a shotgun (in the back no less). The state failed to get an indictment for the shooter (so he never needs to go to court to face any charges and gets off scot free). Link to article on Texas case. The transcript of the emergency call is enlightening. Looks like cold blooded murder to me but he is apparently a hero in Texas. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: Slade Trillgon Well this is the type of thing you can expect to happen if you decide to take the law into your own hand. I am not saying that the guys doing the chasing should be needless held accountable for kids deaths, but if it is proven that they intentionally caused a wreck that caused the fatalities then they should be prosecuted for man slaughter. One of the primary problems with vigilante justice is that you must take responsibility for your own actions. Now, if the idiots just drove of the road, because they were driving recklessly and died because they were not wearing seatbelts, then no charges should be upheld against the workers from the (I am assuming) drive through restaurant. In the end all they should have probably done was take down the liscense plate and call the police. I mean getting in a car chase over a drive through meal is kinda.... Slade It's not as if he ran them off the road, all I see is followed. Actually the link provided gave no explanation on how things occured and I think my post took that into account. Slade
Dihania Gallente Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.07.07 14:55:00 - [12] well it is like he ran them off the road. read the quote I gave above. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.07 15:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Dihania well it is like he ran them off the road. read the quote I gave above. Sorry bud, that is a quote made by the prosecutor and is in no way a police or an eye witness account. If that statment was to be held as the whole truth, then what would be the point of a trial? As of this point the situation is as the following according to the article. Boys stole food, workers put on chase, some collision occured, thieves car ran into a tree and they died on scene or shortly there after, and the workers are being charged with some form of vehicular manslaughter or homicide. That is the case set forth by the rather puny article. Slade
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:08:00 - [14] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 07/07/2008 16:08:28 Originally by: Slade Trillgon Sorry bud, that is a quote made by the prosecutor and is in no way a police or an eye witness account. If that statment was to be held as the whole truth, then what would be the point of a trial? Seems the guy chasing them collided with them. And you always have a trial no matter what (unless the guy pleads guilty the whole way). Even if found guilty there can be mitigating circumstances that can affect the outcome. Quote: A spokeswoman for Essex Police said: "Two vehicles had been involved in a collision a red VW Bora and a maroon coloured Ford Escort. "The Bora was embedded in a hedge and the Ford Escort was in a field in two pieces. SOURCE: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395358-details/Three schoolboys killed on fishing trip/article.do -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc Forged Dominion	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: Dihania well it is like he ran them off the road. read the quote I gave above. Sorry bud, that is a quote made by the prosecutor and is in no way a police or an eye witness account. If that statment was to be held as the whole truth, then what would be the point of a trial? As of this point the situation is as the following according to the article. Boys stole food, workers put on chase, some collision occured, thieves car ran into a tree and they died on scene or shortly there after, and the workers are being charged with some form of vehicular manslaughter or homicide. That is the case set forth by the rather puny article. Slade Ah my bad, didn't see that the cars collided at the bottom. Assuming he was the one to cause the collision it would be his fault, but what are the chances he purposely tried to do that as opposed to the "bad guys".
Elliot Reid Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:38:00 - [16] If I was on the jury I doubt I'd convict. _______________________________________
AsmodeaN Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:58:00 - [17] Edited by: AsmodeaN on 07/07/2008 16:58:55 I say beat the parents to death with the kids bodies, solves two problems.
hammergub	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:29:00 - [18] Too bad, how sad, never mind.
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h We are having a similar deal in the states albeit even more overt. Texas recently changed their laws to allow you to use deadly force if someone invades your home (Castle Doctrine). A guy saw someone invade his neighbor's house, called police and chatted with them awhile then went outside and shot both of the burglars with a shotgun (in the back no less). The state failed to get an indictment for the shooter (so he never needs to go to court to face any charges and gets off scot free). Link to article on Texas case. The transcript of the emergency call is enlightening. Looks like cold blooded murder to me but he is apparently a hero in Texas. I actually listened to a recording of the emergency call myself. Basically, these thugs were robbing the neighbor's house, and this guy thought his house was next. Here is a link to the story on ABC, and here is a link to the actual law in question. Keep in mind, not only were these two guys robbers, but it turns out that they were ILLEGAL Aliens who had both been recently deported and re-entered illegally, and were involved in drug smuggling as well as other crimes. Both were well known to the legal system as VIOLENT felons. In other words, they were NOT NICE GUYS. So shed no tears for the dead crooks. Hot Air has an excellent writeup and about 4 pages of comments and arguments about it. Feel free to go and read. Personally, knowing how bad Houston's crime rates have gotten, I think Joe Horn (the elderly man who shot the crooks) is a hero and a fine American. If we had more people like him we would have a hell of alot less crime. Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:30:00 - [20] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 07/07/2008 17:31:31 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 07/07/2008 16:08:28 Originally by: Slade Trillgon Sorry bud, that is a quote made by the prosecutor and is in no way a police or an eye witness account. If that statment was to be held as the whole truth, then what would be the point of a trial? Seems the guy chasing them collided with them. And you always have a trial no matter what (unless the guy pleads guilty the whole way). Even if found guilty there can be mitigating circumstances that can affect the outcome. Quote: A spokeswoman for Essex Police said: "Two vehicles had been involved in a collision a red VW Bora and a maroon coloured Ford Escort. "The Bora was embedded in a hedge and the Ford Escort was in a field in two pieces. SOURCE: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395358-details/Three schoolboys killed on fishing trip/article.do Yeah I got a little zelous in my response, but I know that one must recieve a fair trial to be found guilty, I was just being a little smart ass when I wrote my response. I have been to court few times unfortunately. Slade
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:33:00 - [21] My apologies, after getting angry after reading the BBC report I jumped in with two feet a bit. The three 15 year old boys were driven by one of their mates who was 17 and had just passed his test a week before the crash. BOTH him and the takeaway guy have been charged with Causing Death By Dangerous Driving. That seems more reasonable, and the jury can unpick the facts from fiction and unless the takeaway guy actually rammed them off the road then justice should be done.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.07.07 19:40:00 - [22] I'm kinda surprised actually, not by the crash or anything like that though. Here you have to pay for the food before you get it. You might get your drink first but you don't see the food until you've paid. This only applies at Drive throughs though, not small walk in diners. Originally by: Calvin Firenze ****ing filter
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.07.07 19:48:00 - [23] It si the boys stoopidity. The taekaway guy is inocent. If taekaway guy is wrong then next time peopel go stael sumething from house in day and if kriminals ghet bashed up then they coudl sue house peopel for harm. And if teakaway guy is wrong, I reali felt sowwy for you and UK ... --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.07.07 20:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Bish Ounen Keep in mind, not only were these two guys robbers, but it turns out that they were ILLEGAL Aliens who had both been recently deported and re-entered illegally, and were involved in drug smuggling as well as other crimes. Both were well known to the legal system as VIOLENT felons. In other words, they were NOT NICE GUYS. So shed no tears for the dead crooks. Probably shouldn't hijack this more (if you want me to start a new thread on it I will though...lots to be said on both sides). I will say the thing is Joe Horn did not know anything about their history before shooting them. He did not check their IDs and look up their criminal records. The issue is running out of your house and gunning someone else down who is walking out of your neighbors house with their stereo (or whatever). What if they had been two local white boys committing their first crime ever? Would you still support Horn in his actions? Is the death penalty appropriate for a simple burglary? Starting to read your Hot Air link. In return I'll point you to one of my favorite stomping grounds where they likewise had a lengthy and heated debate (people strongly on both sides...not all beatnik pacifists there). The Joe Horn "He Needed Killin'" Shooting Case: Your Opinions on His Acquittal -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.07 21:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 07/07/2008 21:55:40 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'm kinda surprised actually, not by the crash or anything like that though. Here you have to pay for the food before you get it. You might get your drink first but you don't see the food until you've paid. This only applies at Drive throughs though, not small walk in diners. All though it does not happen a lot, mistakes happen. I have seen a situation at a Hardees in my home town. First off it is the fast food place in my town one should not go to. It has a history of being extremely slow, I mean so slow that some sit down restaurants would have an appetizer out by the time you would get you burger and fires. That being said I was standing inline and this guy was in the drive through when I came inside. Close to 15 minutes later he got his food and drove off. The girl turned around to go on then remembered that she had not taken the money for the order, she turned back around and was surprised that the guy had driven off. I about laughed my ass off and told the manager that if they had not made the guy sit there for 15 minutes the mistake would not have happened. I can not say that the guy left intentionally without paying, but it would not have surprised me. Originally by: Bish Ounen Originally by: Imperator Jora'h We are having a similar deal in the states albeit even more overt. Texas recently changed their laws to allow you to use deadly force if someone invades your home (Castle Doctrine). A guy saw someone invade his neighbor's house, called police and chatted with them awhile then went outside and shot both of the burglars with a shotgun (in the back no less). The state failed to get an indictment for the shooter (so he never needs to go to court to face any charges and gets off scot free). Link to article on Texas case. The transcript of the emergency call is enlightening. Looks like cold blooded murder to me but he is apparently a hero in Texas. I actually listened to a recording of the emergency call myself. Basically, these thugs were robbing the neighbor's house, and this guy thought his house was next. Here is a link to the story on ABC, and here is a link to the actual law in question. Keep in mind, not only were these two guys robbers, but it turns out that they were ILLEGAL Aliens who had both been recently deported and re-entered illegally, and were involved in drug smuggling as well as other crimes. Both were well known to the legal system as VIOLENT felons. In other words, they were NOT NICE GUYS. So shed no tears for the dead crooks. Hot Air has an excellent writeup and about 4 pages of comments and arguments about it. Feel free to go and read. Personally, knowing how bad Houston's crime rates have gotten, I think Joe Horn (the elderly man who shot the crooks) is a hero and a fine American. If we had more people like him we would have a hell of alot less crime. I will not argue against Mr. Horns actions. The only thing I would say is that people should realize that shooting a criminal in the back in many states will get you charged with murder. I will not argue the right or wrong about this potential outcome to shooting criminals in the back. I will say that their are situations where shooting a criminal in the back would be a quited, and others situations that shooting a criminal in the back will get you convicted. The later is more frequently the case. Slade
Aiden Bismuth Gallente Die Boeremag	Posted - 2008.07.08 06:03:00 - [26] I have no sympathy for criminals caught in the act, and getting injured/killed as a result. The takeaway guys should be getting a medal, not criminal charges. But unfortunately most kids are being brought up with little/no morals these days, so these ones would have probably found it hysterical had they gotten away with it. And, more than likely gone on to committing bigger crimes. I sometimes wonder if the Judge Dredd kind of justice isn't the way to go... I don't know. AB
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.07.08 06:20:00 - [27] Joe Dredd, my arch nemesis. He killed Pa and Link! I'm more with the Judge Death law. "All crime is committed by the living. Therefore the sentence for life is death."
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.08 08:37:00 - [28] I live where these boys were killed. It had quite an effect on the local population for quite a while as its a leafy large village on the edge of Colchester. The question through this case is did the boys crash BECAUSE they were being chased. The local view is, is that they did. BUT, it has to be remembered that the lad driving had passed his test just one week before the crash and was far too inexperienced to be able to drive fast..... so in that case, is he culpable for a) running in the first place and b) driving in a dangerous manner causing the death of his friends. Locally, this is a hot topic. The younger generation firmly blames the take-away staff and the majority of the elders say the blame lays with the young lad with some of it on the take-away driver. Personally I think its sad that these guys died for a paltry ú14. Dwi Cymraig
Terry Knipe	Posted - 2008.07.08 08:43:00 - [29] Originally by: Aiden Bismuth I have no sympathy for criminals caught in the act, and getting injured/killed as a result. Indeed, if they put themselves in harms way then they have to accept the results. I'm sure the Gene pool is better off as a result.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.07.08 17:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Aiden Bismuth I have no sympathy for criminals caught in the act, and getting injured/killed as a result. The takeaway guys should be getting a medal, not criminal charges. But unfortunately most kids are being brought up with little/no morals these days, so these ones would have probably found it hysterical had they gotten away with it. And, more than likely gone on to committing bigger crimes. I sometimes wonder if the Judge Dredd kind of justice isn't the way to go... I don't know. AB First, I want to say that unless there was actuall collision that was initiated by the workers, then they should not be held accountable. Second, I want to say that I am all for vigilanti actions if innocents are not put in more danger. Also, you do know that the fictional character known as Judge Dread (aka one kickass MFer) had authority given to him by a fictional government, and therefor these workers are nothing like that. Judge Dread was judge, jury, and executioner as appointed by the state, not some worker from the local drive through. I will pose one situation for you. Can you honestly say that you never were in a situation where your friends did something and you were pretty much uncapable to get yourself out of the situation? Lets say, hypothetically, that the car was a hatch back and the friend in the back did not know the driver was going to do this and had no recourse but to sit in the car as the driver drove off. Lets also so he was helplessly killed by two workers that decided that a drive through meal was actually worth running the car off the road. Lets also say that the kid in the back was your son. Would you still be saying that the workers should be given medals? If this happened in the states and the workers intentionally ran the car off the road they would be charged with vehicular manslaughter, reckless driving, reckless endangerment, and probably a few other charges, and justifiably so. If they were found guilty the charges should be minimal for first time offenders, but people need to realize that vigilanti justice is something that needs be handled with forethought not afterthought. Slade

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