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Alphaphi
Lost Society
Get Off My Lawn
8
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Posted - 2012.03.15 08:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
so i have always seen people hate on shield super and shield caps, but yet not seen a single argument why they fail so bad that people want them to.
so.... why is it shield caps/supers sucks compared to the armor tanekd ones? |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
173
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 08:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Most popular titans? Gallente and Amarr.
Their doomsday damage? Thermal and EM.
Shields lowest resists? EM and Thremal.
Also there is no shield version Slave implants (yet) and the stuff ccp fixed like shields not being 100% when jumping in. |
Alphaphi
Lost Society
Get Off My Lawn
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 08:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Most popular titans? Gallente and Amarr.
Their doomsday damage? Thermal and EM.
Shields lowest resists? EM and Thremal.
Also there is no shield version Slave implants (yet) and the stuff ccp fixed like shields not being 100% when jumping in.
well, the wyvern can get more EHP than a slaved armorsuper. (SC that is)
and well, Gjallarhorn deals explosive damage, which is armor tanked ships lowest resist.
but the point of those two being the most used are valid though.
but i really don't see the point in boycotting shield supers because of that. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3008
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 09:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alphaphi wrote:well, the wyvern can get more EHP than a slaved armorsuper. (SC that is)
Up until very recently, that was only achievable with officer invulns, which are extremely expensive even for a supercap. Even with the new a-type invulns, you have to devote all of your midslots to tanking mods if you want to have that kind of EHP. This leaves you with the need to gimp your resists if you fit utility midslot mods.
Ragnaroks aren't nearly as popular as armor titans.
There was also that little issue with shield HP bonuses being useless.
"WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Nex apparatu5
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
227
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 11:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.
If you want a tanky supercarrier, you go Aeon.
If you want to top killmails, you go Nyx.
Also, you can fit cool stuff like sebos without gimping your tank.
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Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3023
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 11:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nex apparatu5 wrote:Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.
the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out
"WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
The Vastator
Posthuman Society
Enclave.
6
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Posted - 2012.03.15 12:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Andski wrote:Nex apparatu5 wrote:Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts. the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out
The hitpoint rebalance didn't fix this as only the hel got a subtle nerf on EHP. A bare aeon still has more EHP than a bare wyvern; This is before factoring slaves. The only thing going for shield caps and supercaps now is the cheaper invuls unlike the old ones that required you to cough out isk worth 3 times the value of the super cap hull.
It's been said before that CCP should create a cap shield extender or increase the shield HP of the affected caps and SCs.
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Skorpynekomimi
Omega Vector
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 13:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tracking is why. Tracking computers. Sensor boosters. Target painters.
Armour resists are passive. Can be used while neuted.
Damage Control II has high armour omni resists for a single low slot and next to no cap use. |
Mona X
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 16:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Until recently boosted shield had to recharge after every session change, So, if you've had leviathan as booster you would have only 62,5% of your shield at the begining of battle. And that means you're now primary.
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Armour resists are passive. Can be used while neuted.
Doesn't matter.
I need new signature. |
Liam Mirren
332
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 19:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
- No shield "slave" implants (about to be changed)
- previously you wouldn't get the actual shield HP bonus from leadership upon joining a fleet or jomping into a system, just shield max got increased.
- fitting/tanking/cap issues
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
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M1k3y Koontz
Taxes Suck Inc.
22
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Posted - 2012.03.15 21:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tracking enhancers exist just like tracking computers do.
Most armor hardeners on Supers are active so the fact that shield hardners use cap is irrelevant.
Signal amplifyers, while not as good as sensor boosters, do exist.
And the fact that the Erebus/Avatar are the most popular titans and hit shield tank's "weakest" (I'll explain quoteation marks in a second) would be irrelevant if other people used the Leviathan and Ragnarok.
Also, most shield supers have a second EM hardener, and a large number use a second Thermal hardener as well so often kinetic is their weakest spot.
Honestly, more people would use shield supers if there were faction/officer Signal Amplifyers and if there was an actual shield version of the Slave set.
People just like to hate on shield supers because the Hel isnt as tanky as the Wyvern, which would mean reskilling to get at its better-than-the-Aeon tank (many many months) )none are as DPS'y as the Nyx, the Leviathan sucks because capital missiles cant be made into tracking titans, and they are adjusting to the fact shields are now practical (Welcome, arty-mael).
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3164
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 11:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Vastator wrote:Andski wrote:Nex apparatu5 wrote:Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts. the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out The hitpoint rebalance didn't fix this as only the hel got a subtle nerf on EHP. A bare aeon still has more EHP than a bare wyvern; This is before factoring slaves. The only thing going for shield caps and supercaps now is the cheaper invuls unlike the old ones that required you to cough out isk worth 3 times the value of the super cap hull. It's been said before that CCP should create a cap shield extender or increase the shield HP of the affected caps and SCs.
and a fitted wyvern without shield hardwirings has substantially more EHP than a fitted aeon without slaves or hardwirings
interesting that how that turns out
"WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Mona X
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 13:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Tracking enhancers exist just like tracking computers do.
Except scripted officer computer boosts tracking by 42%, while enhancer by 20%.
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Signal amplifyers, while not as good as sensor boosters, do exist.
Again: worse than active. Well, with incoming nerf, amplifiers on titan might have some redeeming qualities.
I need new signature. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
317
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 01:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shield caps are too weak vs neuts. 6 neuting bs neuts mom ou in under 3 mins. after they melt rly quick
CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 02:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
i think a bit part of it is that supers take a long time to train for. the changes made are fairly recent. it's going to take a while for people to think that shield supers are worth it and the drop the isk for them. especially when CCP continues to make them only useful for bashing structures. these days you're better off training up for a maelstrom than a wyvern |
Headerman
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
718
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 09:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
- fleet bonused shield amout disappears after every session change
- no shield slave sets
- utility or tank, not both.
Although one big advantage the rag has Vs the erebus is tank and damage, just fyi.
In regards to ehp, overall they are not too dissimmilar as Andski said.
But yeah. session changes can knock 1/3 of your shield amount off while an armour tanker is still at full armour is the biggest reason really
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo
Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians
Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US?
Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Diesel47
Sons of Retribution
Malice Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 09:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Headerman wrote:- fleet bonused shield amout disappears after every session change
Doesn't happen anymore |
Mr Blue
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 12:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
armor is the "standard" doctrine for capitals.
if you start fitting shield transporter on half of your supers/carriers you waste a lot of rep power. 50% of the fleets rep gonna end up only beeing 10% effective on over half of your fleet(all the armour tanked ones) and visa versa.
its like mixing shield and armor hacs in the same fleet trying to share the same logistic ships. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
883
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 14:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mr Blue wrote:armor is the "standard" doctrine for capitals.
if you start fitting shield transporter on half of your supers/carriers you waste a lot of rep power. 50% of the fleets rep gonna end up only beeing 10% effective on over half of your fleet(all the armour tanked ones) and visa versa.
its like mixing shield and armor hacs in the same fleet trying to share the same logistic ships.
So, since the major number of Supers/Titans are armour that means players have to crosstrain or will have to join an alliance using shield caps only or their Titan/super will only be used to bridge fleets and remote POS?
Super drakes in space is for soon? 
As it stands right now and armor supers/titans being dominant how will this get some equilibrium?
-you may loose a few armor supers/titans but since those will still be predominant, the most reasonable choice is obviously to continue armor but it's and endless story.
I'd be ok with that if training for those and their cost would be the same than a Battleship but since it isn't this armor argument bother me.
I'd like CCP to answer these two questions and also have your opinion on that. |
Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics
K162
76
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 15:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Biggest thing was the hardener discrepancy. That and, no self respecting Supercap pilot flies without racial carrier 5. And the chimera/nid wasn't a carrier skill really worth taking to 5.
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The Vastator
Posthuman Society
Enclave.
8
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Posted - 2012.03.17 15:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Andski wrote:The Vastator wrote:Andski wrote:Nex apparatu5 wrote:Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts. the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out The hitpoint rebalance didn't fix this as only the hel got a subtle nerf on EHP. A bare aeon still has more EHP than a bare wyvern; This is before factoring slaves. The only thing going for shield caps and supercaps now is the cheaper invuls unlike the old ones that required you to cough out isk worth 3 times the value of the super cap hull. It's been said before that CCP should create a cap shield extender or increase the shield HP of the affected caps and SCs. and a fitted wyvern without shield hardwirings has substantially more EHP than a fitted aeon without slaves or hardwirings interesting that how that turns out
Who the hell flies a SC without slaves?
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Alphaphi
Lost Society
Get Off My Lawn
9
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Posted - 2012.03.18 14:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
i ran the several SC's through PYFA just to see, based on the common fits ofc.
Wyvern EHP W/O implants/hardwirings -> 37-42m
Aeon w. slaves -> 32m
Nyx w. slaves -> 26m
Hel W/O implants/wirings -> 30mil
so yeah, i don't really see why shield supers are so bad EHP wise.
the nyx have more dps to compensate ofc.
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Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2012.03.18 20:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
The armor/shield nerf is recent as is the introduction of deadspace invuls. Inertia in de (super)cap world is huge as it takes to skill another races ships to 5 again, let alone build a fleet around them.
At this moment for supercaps: shield EHP = armor+slave EHP. |
Azeroth Uluntil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.18 23:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
I think the majority of you are beating around the wrong bush as far as this goes.
One of the main reasons in regards to the hatred of shield caps and super caps was their effectiveness when used with a support fleet. The majority of current support fleets were armor based, and thus the capitals fit armor in order to keep things simple and uniform. Shield fleets were mostly not viable for a period of time.
As things have changed and we see more and more shield fleets, the super capital pilots themselves aren't retraining for shield capitals to match, because it is a waste of time. Most notably, the amount of armor based capitals grossly outnumber shield based capitals used in actual combat.
But then again, I've been gone for a year, so who knows? |
Snooze
TURN LEFT
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 00:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think you're right Az, it also goes the other way around.
1600mm's gave more HP on subcaps which meant they became the preferred choice for heavy supcapital gangs.
Those gangs would later be Capital supported, and thus armor Carriers were the preferred logistics.
Since there were Armor Carriers, Armor Dreads became preferred, and so on. So their popularity can really be traced both ways. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo
NEM3SIS.
225
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 08:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Heres another perspective.
There are over 2.2 supers built for every super destroyed.
Diagoras' stats showed 1579 Nyx, 640 Aeon, 296 Wyvern, 116 Hel's flown as of 15th March.
For carriers, 3243 Thanatos, 1716 Archon, 1566 Chimera, 838 Niddhogur.
Clearly there is retraining going on between capital capable pilots and those moving to supers; 20% of non-Gallente carrier capable pilots then go on to retrain into Gallente carrier to access the Nyx.
So assuming that represents manufacturing percentages too, nearly 60% of new supers will be Nyx's and 44% of new carriers will be Thanatos.
But here's the thing. Nearly ALL supercap pilots are stuck in their boats until it pops. So, clearly, whether or not you just buy an alt for the task or suck it up and trap your main, you want the best ship and up until Crucible 1.5-ish, that was the Nyx. Because of the raw DPS, it still kinda is the Nyx. Because of longheld opinion within the community that the Wyvern sucks, it will still be the Nyx.
When you finally do get the theorycrafting gnomes to convince you otherwise, and the hypothetical shift to Wyvern blobs occurs (post some future buff of citadel torps) one fact remains - you are stuck in your Nyx until you sell it (possible, but rare) or it gets popped (very unlikely even now).
So, don't hold your breath until supers start dying in droves, freeing the pilots up to actually make the move...if they'e even trained for the Wyvern or Hel.
The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man.
Sun Tzu
@trinketsfriend on twatter
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Lighter INC
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 14:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Order of relevance:
1) IMO - its the rep carrier support
Have you ever tried to build up a proper RR chimera + local rep chimera?
CPU is kinda tight, no? They seriously dont want ppl to use shield cap mods on shield carriers :D
2) Med slots are used for ewar and electronics upgrades which is much more important on caps... basically armor tank is less used in subcap due to slowing down ships and lack of damage mods in that case... u dont need damage mods on carriers, you need: sebo, TPs, officer points and webs... mount any of these to a SC and you have taken off 2-3M EHP 
3) Lack of cap as mentioned previously
4) Slaves, aeon beats wyvern with slaves set :) as fas as EHP goes... |
Joyelle
State War Academy
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 18:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Alphaphi wrote:i ran the several SC's through PYFA just to see, based on the common fits ofc.
Wyvern EHP W/O implants/hardwirings -> 37-42m
Aeon w. slaves -> 32m
Nyx w. slaves -> 26m
Hel W/O implants/wirings -> 30mil
so yeah, i don't really see why shield supers are so bad EHP wise.
the nyx have more dps to compensate ofc.
PYFA must have a different way of calculating EHP. |
Syrias Bizniz
Red is Dead
Mech Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 02:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
[Wyvern, Maxtank]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Pith X-Type Explosion Dampening Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
EHP: 44,743,052
Raw Shield Hitpoints: 2,454,255
Resistance Profile: 93.7 // 92.9 // 94.7 // 95.6
Passive Shield Tank due to Shield Recharge rate (maximum at 30? %): 5,434 DPS
Capuse // Caprecharge: -18.4 // 96.9
Used Implants:
- Slot 7: Zainou Gnome KVA3000
- Slot 8: Noble ZET3300
- Slot 9: Zainou Gnome KYA3000
[Aeon, Maxtank]
Damage Control II
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardene
Corpus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
EHP: 43,152,952
Raw Armor Hitpoints: 3,153,889
Resistance Profile: 94.3 // 92.6 // 91.4 // 90.9
Passive Shield Tank due to Shield Recharge rate (maximum at 30? %): 95 DPS ;D
Capuse // Caprecharge: -9.2 // 64.1
Used Implants:
- Full Slave Set
- Akemon's Modified Noble ZET5000
*No Fleetbonuses yet*
*Implant Names might be outdated, don't know*
Summary
In a 1v1, the wyvern would kill any other supercarrier. But that's just stupid. Supercarriers usually work in fleets, which usually involves logistics and other support, like: Points, Webs, Targetpainters. At least I think it works this way. Correct me if I'm wrong. So as i compare these two setups i come to the following conclusion:
The Wyvern tops the EHP chart - not by having more raw hitpoints, but by having the better resistance profile. Also, it is able to overheat ALL hardeners INCLUDING the invulnerability fields, which can give again by far higher resistances than the Aeon can achieve. For me, the math is easy: Better Resists, more effective incoming logi love, more EHP restored per RR-Cycle:
I'm not sure on the math, if incoming damage is omni, whether or not you can just calculate the average resistances and assume the incoming damage would be the same if all resistances would be the new average or the real ones, ... but i'll just do it that way now:
Average Resistances of a Wyvern:
(93.7+92.9+94.7+95.6)/4 = 94.225
Average Resistances of a Aeon:
(94.3+92.6+91.4+90.9)/4 = 92.3
The difference is 1.925 resistance points, which results in 1.925/(100-92.3) = 0.25 ---> 25% more efficient remotereps onto the Wyvern than the Aeon. This value increases, as the Wyvern may overheat the full rack if in trouble.
Shield Supers being vulnerable to neuts? Broadcast for Capacitor. At least SOMEONE in your Capfleet should have Energy Transfers, no? If you're alone, hell, than you just die. Easy. No Logoffski anymore, wait in your ship until you pop. So after an Aeon is neuted out, it will die, too.
However, the Aeon has those 4 midslots it can use for Sensor Boosters, which decreases it's locktime, can apply it's DPS and Logilove or Neut or whatever faster than a Shield Super, which is really nice. Same for the Nyx. +1 for the Armor-Supers.
Note: The inferior locking time of the Shield-Supers might get nasty, when trying to apply Logi-Love, but then again, Shield Transfers apply their HP-Bonus at the beginning of their cycle, Remote Armor Reps at the end. So if you add some Cormack's Modified Sensor Boosters to the Aeon (4, to be exactly) and run them with Sensor Resolution Scripts, you come to a locktime of 1.6 seconds onto a carrier, + the 5 seconds cycle time, which is 6.6 seconds for appliance of RR, the Wyvern would need 10.6 Seconds. |
Syrias Bizniz
Red is Dead
Mech Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 02:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Next task: The Support-Fleet, also known as ... Ze Carriers!
Nidhoggur, Thanatos, Archon are Armor-Carriers and have bonus to Remote Armor Rep Range
However, the Nidhoggur and Thanatos also have a bonus to Shield Transfers.
They also have the same slotlayout, which is: 5 Medium Slots, 6 Low Slots. Definately an Armor tank! ... but wait, there's a DCU II. Which eats a Lowslot, and grants both, Shield and Armorresistances, however, slightly more Armor-Resistances.
So all in all, they COULD be shieldtanked, as they have 6 Tankslots in both setups. Fitting is probably the issue, with incredible CPU usage of those damn Shield Transfers, but you have 5 lowslots to spare. I haven't run these things through EFT, and probably the numbers suck donkeyballs cause it's EFT-Warrioring, but f uck it, it might work. Issue could be Triage-Fittings, as these two carriers would probably have both, tanking and capacitor issues.
So next thing would be: What's better, DPS (Nyxes!) or Tank?
I like the idea of killing something as fast as possible, to take out it's dps and then proceed to the next target. However, i also REALLY like the idea of just ignoring this and start tanking like a bauss, you know, like, takes 25% less damage than an Aeon, for example, which... well. Shouldn't THIS already negate the increased DPS of the Nyx?! So that it just feels the same for the pilot, as if he was in a Aeon and got shot by other Aeons, and being in a Wyvern and getting shot by Nyxes? ... At least in my (weak) Math-Fu, it does. The passive shield recharge isn't that much of a bonus, as it just becomes so small under the combined firepower of several supercarriers and only starts getting relevant when already deep into shields, which is kind of meh ;P
...
All in all, if I were a major 0.0 Alliance, i would focus on setting up a Shield-Capital Fleet, as the Wyverns are able to take QUITE a beating and can be repped more efficient, buying more time before one of them dies in a spectacular firework, having more time to apply your own dps. In my opinion the benefits are much bigger than the ... what the hell is the contrary to benefit? Doooownsides is the word i was looking for. :)
-Syrias |
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