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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:23:00 -
[1]
Ok, I just want to get the ball rolling here.
So based on the CSM feedback, a stock market is a distant dream. But we have the chance to push it so that it will be given to us sooner than later.
As mentioned, EyjoG gave us a nice presentation about the problematic areas we have to solve, in terms of game-design, before we can have a stock exchange.
These things have to be planned troughout:
1. A auditing framework
2. A reporting framework
3. A regulatory framework
These are the 3 things that HAS to be in place first. The main problem was the last one. CCP doesn't want to regulate their game too much. So this is a very fine balance they have to walk.
I thus ask you guys for feedback. How should we tackle these issues?
My initial thoughts(I will post more later) is that we should build the 2 first things up from the ground. We should have the foundation built and tested before we go ahead with a stock market. So we need tools for auditing and reporting, from which we can shape the stock market.
The idea was put forward was that CCP should provide tools for gathering data ingame and have the community provide the actual service. What do you think?
So things like the ability to value goods and have a central way of reporting this. But how should it be done? Do you guys have any specific ideas for mechanics to make this "easy"? How would you like to see it happen?
Initially the discussion should revolve around the 2 first points. The last one we will take at a later date ;)
So let me know your thoughts.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 11/07/2008 09:51:29
We already have almost everything we need for #1 in the form of the API. It only needs one or two minor improvements: in particular, a query that returns ME/PL/runs status for blueprints would be useful. Yes, it'd cause a bit of server load, but I don't think too many people would want to use it. All I'm asking for is the information viewable on the science & industry screen blueprints tabs in the form of an API query.
People can manage reporting on their own, given the data from the API, so that just leaves #3. This is where it goes horribly wrong, because the existence of alts and multiple accounts completely negates any punitive measures that a regulatory framework could seek to impose.
It's very simple - someone follows the rules up to a certain point, builds up a good reputation, and then decides to call scam. They transfer everything to an alt on an undisclosed account, and from there to another character, and that's as far as it's possible to follow anything under the current mechanics. Short of giving players access to the GMs' tracking tools, there's not much that can be done.
Even then, if you do somehow track down a scammer, CCP has already ruled out adding any restrictions to the function of the market, so I fail to see how they could be punished (short of a direct attack) unless everyone switches to using contracts all the time. This clearly isn't going to happen.
I suppose, for these reasons, that participation in the secondary markets is always going to be quite risky, and not something that anyone should consider doing unless they have a lot of idle isk that they're too lazy to use, and that they don't particularly mind losing.
Zzz research towers
Direrie
NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:48:00 -
[3]
Without regulation there is nothing. And as CCP don't want that role, I don't see how the rest is possible.
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Hizell
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.11 11:10:00 -
[4]
Actually the real problem is inside information. Even if you had a properly regulated market, there is no way you can stop people profiting from inside information. Since no-one has the abilty to monitor another players RL communication, it would be impossible to prove whether someone had profited from inside information. Therefore the 'insiders' would always be able to profit (directly or indirectly) from their better knowledge of the profitability of the company. This means that investors have to rely solely on trusting corp management which does not make it any better than the current system.
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Amrumm
Rhetorical Devices
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Posted - 2008.07.11 11:27:00 -
[5]
Would be nice if the planned 'CSM issue 0019 - contracts improvements' include a way to set up contracts for shares.
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Sentinental
Minmatar
Gordan Freeman Tech III Investment
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Posted - 2008.07.11 11:59:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sentinental on 11/07/2008 12:03:24
i would love to see more statistics, something like the dow jones would be nice. shares should be tradeable and have more attributes. it should be posibile for a corporation to create a balance sheet and everything else that is neccesary to create good reports.
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Investment Company |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Asylum
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Posted - 2008.07.11 12:34:00 -
[7]
How about giving a corp the option to become a PLC somewhere in corp management.
At this point the corp choose the start value of thier corp and inital number of shares. 50% of shares issued have to be paid for by the founding corp and are held by the "stock exchange" to cover against scams and disapperances.
so then if someone wanted to start a IPO/bond they would need to 1) have a good starter fund themselves or 2) be able to convice Investors/Banks private/public to fund the PLC.
The remaining 50% of shares would then be floated to the public as a secure investment.
this way I feel there would be many more options in the secondry market and secure and insecure investments so managing a porfolio would be a bit easier and would still allow new/unknown people a chance if they can get the funding. And with big investors balancing a nice portfolio of "safe" investments they may be more willing to invest in more risky options.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.11 12:47:00 -
[8]
I think if we presented that really all we want are better tools for share purchase, sell, buyback, and usage. EVERYTHING else would fall into place in the community. We have much of everything we need already in the community. The API allows auditing (maybe some more info like BP stats, etc..), we already have regulatory through the trust relationship one builds for public offerings.
What we lack, and the clear issue is the ability to easily manage shares within a corporation.
How about we attack the argument from that angle. That we're not looking for a new market window from the ground up. We just want better tools to manage shares. |
Grozen
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
The OSS
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Posted - 2008.07.11 12:59:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Grozen on 11/07/2008 13:03:31
Edited by: Grozen on 11/07/2008 13:02:43
Edited by: Grozen on 11/07/2008 12:59:58
The only way i see this working is having a vote for a csm who would specially deal with the stock exchange as its director, that way ccp is regulating things because they will have details such as adress real life name of the market stock director.Ccp will have special meetings with the director on the week they meet with the other csm.What will someone profit from being 1?2-5% of all market operations as a stock exhcange tax/commision.Because the role has a good potential to be rewarding and so many real life details are involved the scam risk is limited.
knowledge is power |
Ambo
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.11 13:33:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Ray McCormack
Without regulation there is nothing. And as CCP don't want that role, I don't see how the rest is possible.
I agree. Without at least some measure of security and regulatory framework in place, it's just not going to happen. If CCP will not do this or provide the players with tools to do it then the secondary market is never going to go much beyond what it is now.
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
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Drall Warsong
Shizt
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Posted - 2008.07.11 13:35:00 -
[11]
I'll give some suggestions:
1. A auditing framework:
Auditing is about digging through company reports, so this is only as good as the reporting system. It would have to be reliant on the investing community, how much an audit is worth to them.
2. A reporting framework:
Would need 4 basic reports to be CCP generated: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_statements)
1) Balance Sheet
2) Income Statement
3) Statement of Retained Earnings
4) Statement of Cash Flows
Various issues, but reports 2, 3, and 4 CCP should be able to generate a standard reporting system to deal with these, and rely on each company to provide their details on each. The Balance is the issue, I have no ideas on how to tackle the valuation of assets issue.
3. A regulatory framework:
Would need somebody with a vest interested in the financial well being of eve, somebody with the training and expertise to do so, and somebody who has the time. EyjoG seems like the most likely person to me, I wouldn't trust anybody who isn't directly employed by CCP.
Potential regulatory hurdles:
1) Valuation of Assets
2) Monthly/Yearly reporting requirements, and enforcement
3) Insider Trading, rules and enforcement
4) and probably loads more, I can't think of more right now, but I am not done with my first cup of coffee.
Hope this helps, would love to see the idea work.
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Matalino
Gallente
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.11 14:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
These things have to be planned troughout:
1. A auditing framework
2. A reporting framework
3. A regulatory framework
The biggest challenge with defining those parameters is that you need to clearly define what a publicly trading corp can do.
The auditing and reporting for a manufacturing corp would be noticiably different from a research corp.
Likewise, regulation of a research corp might center around the lock-down of valuable BPO's, but a trading corp might not have any assets that could be locked down.
The way I see it, there is no way to avoid the fundamental fact that the value of any public is based entirely upon the reputation of those opperating it.
We already have the API that allows us the ability to build our own auditing and reporting frameworks. We have also built our own regulatory framework. I am having a hard time envisioning how it could be improved without opening up larger opportunities for exploitation.
Any tools that are created for auiditing, reporting, and regulation would need to be carefully designed so that they are not readily exploitable to create false trust, and also not exploitable to greif members of the corp.
We would also need to concider how those tools could be used by private corps. Any tool that could help protect against stock scams would have an equal effect on corp theft.
I am not sure what we might be able to do in those regards, but I don't see why that should stop us from improving the tools that we do have.
Eve is supposed to be a great sandbox. All we need are the tools and we can build the rest.
Trading shares via contracts would be a good place to start.
I have also suggested in other threads, that we add the option to place buy/sell orders for shares to the corp info window.
Just give us the tools to trade shares (instead of simply giving them away) and see where the stock market goes from there.
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Proton Power
Amarr
Power Corrupts Tech
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:11:00 -
[13]
I have never understood honestly how a stock system in Eve would work.
Now I have figured out a way to possibly make it worth with FW going.
Make it based on NPC Corps in Low Sec. Base it on trade in those low sec areas of NPC goods, and how thier paticular faction is doing currently against all other factions. People can buy shares into that corp, and based on some mathmatical percentage the stocks of each NPC Corp goes up and down based on Stations Owned, Trade Goods Sold, Trade Goods bought, maybe even add in dividends that corp made from repairs and sold items from the player base.
Somthing like this would be very interesting to me. The players over all change the stock price based on PVP, Trade, and Market Transactions, but its controlled by CCP.
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http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli |
Anas Damona
KOM TV
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
3. A regulatory framework
Just a couple of ideas that came to me while I was downing a bucket of fried chicken:
Require a skill to do a share flotation. Make it very expensive, say one billion ISK. That would cut down on the number of casual alts that can launch an IPO. Maybe there would be a series of skills, allowing more shares/higher total value with each level trained. Having one character with these skills trained and a good reputation would be a big asset to any player, not something to idly throw away.
Have a 'capsuleer finance committee.' Maybe elected, maybe you buy your way in, maybe you have to be nominated by a retiring member and confirmed by the board. These bigwigs could then approve or disapprove of any potential share flotation, in effect they would be official auditors. They would have a lot of power, but if there are enough members then it wouldn't be open to abuse, although bribing a few members would be possible...
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:25:00 -
[15]
How to build a stock market in EVE:
Step 1. Wait and see how EBANK will implement theirs.
Step 2. Incorporate it in game.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
SoleDeo Gloria
Minmatar
Mission Runners Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:40:00 -
[16]
This ^
My EVE Online Screen Captures Blog |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:46:00 -
[17]
Mr Horizontal, that's exactly the kind of smarmy post EBank's detractors are irritated with. Either join the discussion or keep your arrogant attitude to yourself.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
How to build a stock market in EVE:
Step 1. Wait and see how EBANK will implement theirs.
Step 2. Incorporate it in game.
Actually
Step 1. Allow shares to be securely traded between players for isk
...there really is no step 2, step 1 creates the market right then and there. The rest is just fluff and reporting. |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 16:06:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 11/07/2008 16:09:00
Shares based on player-run corporations will never "work", because the single most valuable ressource in eve is "work hours" (~labor ~ time spent actively interacting with eve), and not even brainwashed carebear GMs will be able to force anyone to log on.
The most you can get is something that is acceptable. Similar to the glory days of ISS and O'Mara.
Edit: forgot the obvious. As long as there arent proper ways to trade (and track those trades) shares as ingame items, you can forget everything else. Trust-based brokers arent the problem, the insane overhead is.
Reputation is not a viable security, simply because most of the player base has a very varied view of what "success" means in eve. Hint: freighter ganks and scamming whining rich carebears are pretty high on that list if averaged out.
IRL contact details are so braindead and moronic that anyone who suggests it clearly disqualifies himself from anything.
"Um Sir Boss, one of your employers plays Macbeth at the local theater group, well not quite, he plays a scammer in eve, but both are equally abhorrible!!!!"
The eve universe - contrary to modern societies - does not distinguish between property and possession. I like it that way, but one may be able to introduce this split under heavily controlled circumstances.
For example, items could be flagged as property of a public corporation.
When a certain event triggers (recovery vote), this item is flagged as stolen and will be seized by any empire station. There will be a system to locate the item, whereever it is (in space, in a POS, in a pirate station or player outpost) and ways to get it back, even if the owner is logged out or even deleted. These ways will involve lots and lots of explosions.
This isnt even a rough draft, but i think there is promise. Certainly more promise then IRL hate campaigns or EvE GMs playing SEC ("Our logs dont show anything ...")
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.07.11 16:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Without regulation there is nothing. And as CCP don't want that role, I don't see how the rest is possible.
^^sadly....this^^
Of course I dont want nor expect CCP to regulate any exchanges.
I think we would see a vast improvement just from the things that CCP has already said they will do, share tracking(journel) and shares on contracts.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.11 17:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Actually
Step 1. Allow shares to be securely traded between players for isk
...there really is no step 2, step 1 creates the market right then and there. The rest is just fluff and reporting.
Actually, I don't think that's going to make an enormous amount of difference. We already have many widely trusted people acting as brokers, and most people who buy bonds or shares in IPOs are looking to hold onto them as a steady source of income, not something to resell.
Zzz research towers
Direrie
NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.07.11 17:31:00 -
[22]
I buy shares and bonds to sell them on. And having to go through a 3rd party exchange is annoying. Both from a trust and time aspect. If people were allowed to contract shares to each other, or even log transfers, I'd think the secondary market would see a lot of growth. Which, incidentally, would mean that getting in on the ground floor would be all the more important.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.07.11 18:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Actually
Step 1. Allow shares to be securely traded between players for isk
...there really is no step 2, step 1 creates the market right then and there. The rest is just fluff and reporting.
Actually, I don't think that's going to make an enormous amount of difference. We already have many widely trusted people acting as brokers, and most people who buy bonds or shares in IPOs are looking to hold onto them as a steady source of income, not something to resell.
Possibly, but as Ray just pointed out. Removing the complication and simplifying the matter can only do good. Not that I don't applaud the work done on the secondary market all these years with third party brokers.
I feel that removing the barrier by simplifying the process would open up the ability for resale, and allow other players who would normally never think about venturing down our way here at MnD into more investment opportunities. |
Maestro Del'Tirith
Del'Tirith Holdings
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Posted - 2008.07.11 18:15:00 -
[24]
I wholeheartedly disagree with the 'there needs to be regulation' notion. Maybe I don't understand what is meant by that.
My thought:
What we need is a secure means to transfer shares, and ways for corporations to manage those shares with forced buybacks at issue price. Votes to release additional shares should include a new share price and that is now the price that needs to be paid for a forced buyback. Shares offered at 0 would be feasible to handle other situations. Inter-person trades could be done at any price, the only fixed figure should be the corp buyback price - equal or greater than - since it can be forced.
Err - and some way, any way, to see who gave you what shares when and at what price would sure be nice.
To get really fancy, the ability to list the shares up somewhere that people can see and buy off of/sell to would be great...but that feels like a 'step 2' that is irrelevant without step 1.
Everything else is the icing that a player organization of one sort or another can add...but we need these in order for it to become something other than a past time of people reading this forum. A very small percentage of the player base actually reads the forums at all - we need something that doesn't require it.
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HawkBlade
Minmatar
Starlancers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 18:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
I buy shares and bonds to sell them on. And having to go through a 3rd party exchange is annoying. Both from a trust and time aspect. If people were allowed to contract shares to each other, or even log transfers, I'd think the secondary market would see a lot of growth. Which, incidentally, would mean that getting in on the ground floor would be all the more important.
This is the gist of the matter. The eve players have not had any reasonably safe method of doing transactions between two parties as far as shares are concerned. Hmmmm... if player to player trading of items was one side at a time (I.e. I give you item, then wait for you to give me return)... no one would do any direct player to player trades. This kind of one step trading died in MMO's like " The Realm" and even way back with the start of " UO" did not exist. This means that the trade of shares is back in the dark ages of MMO's where middlemen are mandatory. There is no reasonable game mechanic reason for this. This is not like Super Caps which are highly unique, relatively, entities requiring massive amounts of resources that limit a player's actions just from being inside one.We are talking about "shares" which can easily be numbered in the millions and should be part of corporate inter-relationships & dealings on a regular basis. However because of this throwback to the early to mid 1990's we have the system we have now. So much for progress. The first thing to be done is to bring the shares trading system into this millennium. Then we sit back and watch the laws of unintended consequences take place before we speculate on any next step. PS: I agree, this is not the place for eBank to tout their soonÖ to be released stock market alternative. It might be obsolete before it comes out depending on these changes.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:30:00 -
[26]
I would recommend CCP first implement a stock market for the NPC corporations first off, and then build upon that based on server load, database load, player ideas, etc..
At least this would be regulated, the mechanics are already in place as NPC's buy / sell trade goods and T1 un-named items. Fairly easy to calculate the NPC corp's financials as well.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Ok, I just want to get the ball rolling here.
So based on the CSM feedback, a stock market is a distant dream. But we have the chance to push it so that it will be given to us sooner than later.
As mentioned, EyjoG gave us a nice presentation about the problematic areas we have to solve, in terms of game-design, before we can have a stock exchange.
These things have to be planned troughout:
1. A auditing framework
2. A reporting framework
3. A regulatory framework
These are the 3 things that HAS to be in place first. The main problem was the last one. CCP doesn't want to regulate their game too much. So this is a very fine balance they have to walk.
I thus ask you guys for feedback. How should we tackle these issues?
My initial thoughts(I will post more later) is that we should build the 2 first things up from the ground. We should have the foundation built and tested before we go ahead with a stock market. So we need tools for auditing and reporting, from which we can shape the stock market.
The idea was put forward was that CCP should provide tools for gathering data ingame and have the community provide the actual service. What do you think?
So things like the ability to value goods and have a central way of reporting this. But how should it be done? Do you guys have any specific ideas for mechanics to make this "easy"? How would you like to see it happen?
Initially the discussion should revolve around the 2 first points. The last one we will take at a later date ;)
So let me know your thoughts.
Actually the list should be in reverse order:
1. A regulatory framework
Regulating a stock market begins with the original IPO. When corporation issues an IPO and becomes public there should be a mechanism that makes the corp a separate entity.
Example: I create a corp and decide to go public. By selecting the ôissue IPOö option I am relinquishing some control over the corp and its assets, making shares available on the EVE stock market, and opening the door to all aspects of items 2 & 3. I would think that to limit corporation ôboard room warsö the ownership stake by current corp members, and/or the CEO that corp ownership would be limited to 51%. However, major decisions like transfer of large sums of ISK and other assets outside of the corp would require a 66% or greater vote. IÆm sure that there are ways (read: scams) around a system of this type. There will always be someone looking to scam. (ItÆs only my ælil brainstormàtear it apart as you wish!). Sanctions, via a majority vote or petition, should be available to recover any ISK or assets involved in a scam.
Maybe CCP isnÆt interested in ôrecovering fundsö, but if they want an active, and profitable, EVE stock marketà a regulatory/sanction system has to come first.
2. A reporting framework
Looks like a simple software/programming issue to me. When a corp goes public a report should be available through the API system in a public fashion. Right-click the corp in the stock market and select ôFinancial reportö. The details we can decide on later.
3. A auditing framework
Pre-IPO Auditing is pretty much handled in a good way now. A few select and trusted people do it. They should be compensated though and the expense should be 100% on the CEO issuing the IPO. A modified contract system would work here I think.
Post-IPO Auditing should be meshed into the reporting system.
<flame as needed>
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Amrumm
Rhetorical Devices
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith
I wholeheartedly disagree with the 'there needs to be regulation' notion. Maybe I don't understand what is meant by that.
My thought:
What we need is a secure means to transfer shares, and ways for corporations to manage those shares with forced buybacks at issue price. Votes to release additional shares should include a new share price and that is now the price that needs to be paid for a forced buyback. Shares offered at 0 would be feasible to handle other situations. Inter-person trades could be done at any price, the only fixed figure should be the corp buyback price - equal or greater than - since it can be forced.
Err - and some way, any way, to see who gave you what shares when and at what price would sure be nice.
To get really fancy, the ability to list the shares up somewhere that people can see and buy off of/sell to would be great...but that feels like a 'step 2' that is irrelevant without step 1.
Everything else is the icing that a player organization of one sort or another can add...but we need these in order for it to become something other than a past time of people reading this forum. A very small percentage of the player base actually reads the forums at all - we need something that doesn't require it.
Let's call these new shares 'bonds' and make them non-voting as well. Provide the option to do separate dividend payments to the bonds. It would be nice if you could offer bonds 'market-style', i.e. dump 10000 on the market and different people can pick up as many as they like.
Looking at tools like EFT and EVEMon, the community is able to build fantastic tools once CCP provides the API access.
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Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:40:00 -
[29]
Until CCP is willing to impose rule of law - (which goes against a lot of the anarchic themes) - property that represents a future claim is worth what the person who the claim is against feels the claim is worth. It is not worth what the investor feels it is worth (or paid).
A CCP run share market, could function like the market - but the stocks could have all the value of pirate logs. Unless or until CCP is willing to implement regulations that create effective hostile takeovers (unlikely) a stock exchange is going to sell pieces of paper that corp management will determine the value upon.
The stock market today is a historical anomaly. Throughout history, most business endeavours have been family run firms - that never sold shares.
Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:41:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Athre on 11/07/2008 21:42:02
I really feel we do not need another market for stocks. Regulatory would be a nightmare.
1)We need a secure means of trading stocks (Full journalizing too).
-A)Contract
-B)Physical certificates
Actual certificates (like bookmark type items)that could then be traded even on the normal market itself. The trouble with identifying the individual corporations would mean more database items. I dont know how willing CCP is to bend or if this is even feasible as many corps either make holding companies or are straight out solo player corps.
2) We need some controls for Corps to regain missing shares.
-A)Some function of a demand and time frame for return executed by the issuing corporation.
-B)Inactive accounts of X time having all shares returned (1 year?).
Heck I still have 100 NUMI shares in my wallet but the corp is closed. Shouldnt those shares have returned to the Corp? I have no need of them and they just take up a database slot in my Shares Journal.
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