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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:53:00 -
[1]
Right now, Gallente drones do the most DPS, Minmatar drones are fastest, Caldari drones are mediocre across the board, and Amarr drones are CCP's idea of a bad joke. The four varieties of drone should not be identical, but they should be balanced against each other, to the point where all four actually see use. I've never seen anyone use Amarr drones, and Caldari are very occasional at best.
The easiest way to balance this is to give all four of them a role. Gallente and Minmatar already have theirs, being damage and speed respectively. Caldari fit well enough into being the jack of all trades - faster than Gallente and more damage than Minmatar - though they could use a bit of boosting in order to make them better at it. Amarr drones, however, are slower than Minmatar with less damage, and only a tiny bonus in HP. In other words, any time you use an Amarr drone, you should just use a Minmatar one instead unless you know your opponent's resistances specifically in advance.
My proposed solution is simple - give Amarr a massive bonus to HP, by a factor of 4 or so. Make tank their niche. It's not useful in all situations, but it's useful in enough that the drones might actually see some use. If you're in a ship where you don't want someone shooting your drones - either because you're in a nano ship where they can't shoot you, or because you're in a ship where drones are the vast majority of your DPS(Curse/Pilgrim, anyone?) - you might pick up some Amarr drones to make them live longer and apply more damage over their life. Also, in line with the "boost Caldari to make them a jack of all trades" principle, give them about 2x the HP they have now - nothing crazy, but a nice little buff.
So what do you think? Would any of you actually use these drones? ------------------ Fix the forums! |
islador
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:05:00 -
[2]
Nice idea m8, would also be a nice backup for battle carriers vs smartbombs. I would also be more inclined to using amarr/caldari drones vs gallente like i usually do.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:56:00 -
[3]
I wouldnt give them a 2x/4x boost to HP, but any reason to use Amarr/Caldari drones is wanted -
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:59:00 -
[4]
Yes, giving those two drone kinds some distinctive usefulness would be great. Anything in the areas of hitpoints, tracking, optimal range and orbiting range would be welcome. -------- Ideas for: Mining |
Lance Fighter
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Posted - 2008.07.13 22:02:00 -
[5]
indeed.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.13 22:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari I wouldnt give them a 2x/4x boost to HP, but any reason to use Amarr/Caldari drones is wanted
I agree that it's a bit heavy-handed, but drones are simple little critters. There's not a whole lot of things you can change on them to make them better. Resistances are locked, speed, damage, and damage types are already spoken for, tracking is a direct formula from orbit speed and radius, and you're basically left with orbit radius, optimal range, and hit points as your free variables. Raising or lowering orbit radius doesn't seem like a buff to me, and optimal range is incredibly minor on non-sentry drones(since I don't think you want them hitting while they're still 20 seconds out from the target). HP is the only buff left, unless you want to equalize them all or do something really outlandish(e.g., less bandwidth use). Given that I don't, I'll just play the cards I've got. It's not perfect, but it's the best solution I see that works within the game mechanics and isn't crazy. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Patient 2428190
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.13 23:08:00 -
[7]
As cool as it would be to have 4x hitpoints, its not like they are useless right now.
For Amarr drones, EM does wickedly bad things to Caldari tanks, and on certain 3 hardener armor tanks, EM is the lowest resist. But no, why would that matter to anybody?
You know, the highest DPS number in EFT isn't the meaning of the universe. Lalala. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.13 23:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Patient 2428190 As cool as it would be to have 4x hitpoints, its not like they are useless right now.
For Amarr drones, EM does wickedly bad things to Caldari tanks, and on certain 3 hardener armor tanks, EM is the lowest resist. But no, why would that matter to anybody?
You know, the highest DPS number in EFT isn't the meaning of the universe.
Assuming said Caldari tanks use only invulns, then the T1 Amarr drone does 1.15x base damage("base damage" is defined here as the base damage for a drone of the appropriate size, reduced accordingly for the resistances provided by the invulns), the Gallente does 1.28x base, the Caldari does 0.87x, and the Minmatar does 0.65x. So Amarr go to being 2nd-best drones for damage, but they're still not the best.
Similarly, against an armour tank using 1 each of T2 kin, therm, and explo hardeners, an Amarr drone does 0.65x base(or 0.52x vs a Minmatar ship), the Gallente drone does 0.468x base(or 0.396x vs a Caldari ship), the Caldari drone does 0.489375x base(or 0.424125x vs a Gallente ship), and the Minmatar drone does 0.5265x base(or 0.468x vs an Amarr ship). So at that point, the Amarr drone is better against three races, including the two most likely to armour tank. I did say in the OP that they can currently be best against certain tanks with certain specific resistances.
However, what you overlook is that that's a pretty bad tank. Even with no armour compensation skills, a 3-EANM tank is better for most purposes than a 3-specific tank. It uses the same fitting, saves you 4.5 cap/second, gives you almost as much hardening against the 3 non-EM damage types(41.4%, specifically), and also hardens you against EM. With the comp skills at 2, it's 44.8% to all, and with them at 5, it's 49.6% to all. EHP against even damage levels out at between 2-3 to all, depending on the race of the ship. In other words, unless the PvP ship in question has capacitor to burn(which no self-respecting PvP ship does), you'll almost invariably go for the EANMs, meaning your setup is unlikely. Yes, there will be people who use it, and against them the Amarr drones will be best. But in order for using Amarr drones to be correct, you need to know the enemy's fit precisely with enough lead time to change out your drones(and in the case of T2 drones, train up Amarr Drone Specialization, which you probably haven't even purchased prior to this), it has to be almost exactly this particular janky fit, and you need to know that he's the only enemy you'll be facing. Can you tell me exactly how often that's happened to you? Yeah, if a Domi's got a bit of spare drone bay, you can carry around a rack of Acolytes just for the laughs, but in terms of practical utility there's almost none.
Furthermore, even if you are right, I'm not sure you make your point very well. Let me illustrate:
When are Gallente drones the best? When you want to do lots of damage. When are Minmatar drones best? When you need the drones to catch up to a fast ship. When are Caldari drones best? When you need some fairly specific combination of a) and b). When are Amarr drones best? When you've got a ship scan on an armour-tanking non-Minmatar enemy ship who is using three specific hardeners, and enough time to swing by the local mall before combat starts.
That's not balance, that's a sick joke. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
Patient 2428190
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.07.14 04:31:00 -
[9]
Some Caldari (most iirc?) T2 ships start with 80% Thermal Resistance, 70% Kinetic, 50% explosive and 0% EM. I think I'd use Amarr drones there
Maybe they could use a touch more damage, but I wouldn't call Amarr Drones a sick joke. They are tougher by a small margin, and have limited uses. Lalala. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.14 04:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Patient 2428190 Some Caldari (most iirc?) T2 ships start with 80% Thermal Resistance, 70% Kinetic, 50% explosive and 0% EM. I think I'd use Amarr drones there
Maybe they could use a touch more damage, but I wouldn't call Amarr Drones a sick joke. They are tougher by a small margin, and have limited uses.
Sure, those are the base resists, basically the same as Gallente T2 resists. But anyone within a hundred jumps of PvP puts a specific EM hardener on a shield-tanked ship with those kind of shield resists. When it's 55% EM resist plus invulns, then all of a sudden Amarr drones are less damaging than Minmatar, on top of being slower and only having a tiny bit more HP.
As for Amarr drones being tougher, compare them to Gallente - they have the same armour HP, but about 30% less shield and 50% less structure HP. They're a touch tougher than Minmatar and a touch weaker than Caldari, but not by much in either case. Gallente drones have the most HP by far(like they need the help), not Amarr as you imply. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
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Garion Avarr
Zero Zero Traders YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.14 06:20:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Garion Avarr on 14/07/2008 06:19:56 Yes PLEASE. I'm an Amarr RPer, focused on drones as my main combat weapon. I'd really love to be able to effectively use my racial drones like any proud Amarrian should. ________________________________ This is not a signature. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.14 07:27:00 -
[12]
Hmm I don't see a problem ... but I almost exclusively use sentry drones .... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.14 16:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Hmm I don't see a problem ... but I almost exclusively use sentry drones ....
Just to make it explicit, sentry drones are fine - they split up nicely by damage/range/tracking. I couldn't reasonably label any of them as "best" or "worst" - Gardes are Ogres without travel time for the mission crowd, Bouncers and Wardens can make surprisingly good sniper Domis, and Curators are a reasonable middle ground. They've all got the same HP, too. I wouldn't be surprised if the Amarr one still sees the least use, but it's not gimped in any way like the normal Amarr drones are, it's just in a spot on the progression I expect most players to not like very much. I don't advocate changes to sentry drones(or Fighters), just the light/medium/heavy combat drones. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
SunglassesInSpace
SPACE DUDES
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Posted - 2008.07.14 16:14:00 -
[14]
Caldari drones are awesome, nice balance between speed and damage with a good damage type.
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Ishina Fel
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.07.14 16:40:00 -
[15]
I agree that Amarr drones need a buff.
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Kyle Cataclysm
Blue. Blue Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.14 16:55:00 -
[16]
boost amarr drones.
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Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2008.07.14 17:10:00 -
[17]
Sounds good to me.
--------------------------------- Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains. |
Macheriel
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.15 12:16:00 -
[18]
Amarr drones need some improvement. Higher increase in HP is a step in a right direction.
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:15:00 -
[19]
Actually there is one way you could use orbit distance and range as a boost.
Give them a 6km orbit and range...that way you would use them when expecting to come up against smartbombs.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SunglassesInSpace Caldari drones are awesome, nice balance between speed and damage with a good damage type.
Agreed, which is why I don't want to change them much. I think they're balanced a bit below Gallente and Minmatar, so I want to give them a small buff.
Originally by: Zikka Actually there is one way you could use orbit distance and range as a boost.
Give them a 6km orbit and range...that way you would use them when expecting to come up against smartbombs.
That could happen, but then you either have them tracking so slow they can be hit by turrets easily, or moving so fast that missiles are useless against them. HP has a similar effect without as many odd interactions. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:39:00 -
[21]
Amarr drones should get a buff to make them the toughest to kill if there not there allready.
Caldari drones should orbit at much bigger ranges leaving them outside bomb range for there class small/medium/large.
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