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diesel420
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force
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Posted - 2008.07.14 00:18:00 -
[1]
Target painters increase sig radius right? Well these help much with missles hitting an inty at 5-6 k/s orbit?
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Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.14 00:24:00 -
[2]
No.
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dev urandom
Caldari Singularity. Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 00:24:00 -
[3]
target painters do increase sig radius.
um, there's a few things you have to look at not just sig radius.
missile velocity vs ceptor's velocity (if you can't catch it w/ your missiles it won't hit anyway), sig radius vs explosion radius, then explosion velocity vs velocity of ceptor.
All these factors play a part of if you hit and how hard you hit for.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.07.14 00:30:00 -
[4]
Not much of a missile user but as I understand it, the explosion velocity will be the governing factor at that speed.
The explosion radius would be smaller than the inties sig radius for any missiles smaller than cruises and I don't think you can get enough explosion velocity for cruises to really do anything to a target going that speed.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:12:00 -
[5]
If you're using guns, the target painter will help you track him better. If you're using missiles, the target painter will be a complete waste of a slot.
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I'm not as think as you drunk I am. |
The Hanz
Caldari Will It Blend
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hannobaal If you're using guns, the target painter will help you track him better. If you're using missiles, the target painter will be a complete waste of a slot.
/facepalm
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Lithalnas
Amarr Headcrabs
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:26:00 -
[7]
yes and no, any intie pilot worth his salt will not fly into web range and flee at the first sign of a huggen or rapier, that being said, a webifier is good for killing stupid or slower than you inties.
Target painters can help, but the signature given by a MWD already makes them huge even with the bonuses sig radius.
If you want a large ship to take out inties, your best bet is a large newt. -------------
fixed for greater eve content |
Clueless Alt
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: The Hanz
Originally by: Hannobaal If you're using guns, the target painter will help you track him better. If you're using missiles, the target painter will be a complete waste of a slot.
/facepalm
/facepalm. He's in the truth.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:53:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 14/07/2008 01:53:52
Originally by: The Hanz
Originally by: Hannobaal If you're using guns, the target painter will help you track him better. If you're using missiles, the target painter will be a complete waste of a slot.
/facepalm
Tracking Guide
You seem like you need it.
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I'm not as think as you drunk I am. |
The Hanz
Caldari Will It Blend
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 14/07/2008 01:53:52
Originally by: The Hanz
Originally by: Hannobaal If you're using guns, the target painter will help you track him better. If you're using missiles, the target painter will be a complete waste of a slot.
/facepalm
Tracking Guide
You seem like you need it.
Learn to read. Tracking speed has to do with their orbit speed and range.
Signature radius effects how often the gun hits based on its signature resolution.
Two completely different things.
You have the guide but you also manage to be a complete idiot by giving out incorrect information thus the /facepalm.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: The Hanz Learn to read. Tracking speed has to do with their orbit speed and range.
Signature radius effects how often the gun hits based on its signature resolution.
Two completely different things.
For missiles, they are separate. And each one reduces damage on its own. For guns, they aren't. And basically, sig radius versus sig resolutions acts as a modifier on tracking.
Provided you are having trouble tracking a target, then any sig radius increase on the target (even if it allready has a larger sig radius than the sig resolution of the guns shooting at it) will make the guns track better.
You followed the link. Now all you need to do is to go to the 5th page there and play around with the numbers to understand that what I said is true and learn for yourself how gun tracking works in Eve.
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I'm not as think as you drunk I am. |
The Hanz
Caldari Will It Blend
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:26:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 14/07/2008 02:21:50
Originally by: The Hanz Learn to read. Tracking speed has to do with their orbit speed and range.
Signature radius effects how often the gun hits based on its signature resolution.
Two completely different things.
For missiles, they are separate. And each one reduces damage on its own. For guns, they aren't. And basically, sig radius versus sig resolution acts as a modifier on tracking.
Provided you are having trouble tracking a target, then any sig radius increase on the target (even if it allready has a larger sig radius than the sig resolution of the guns shooting at it) will make the guns track better.
You followed the link. Now all you need to do is to go to the 5th page there and play around with the numbers to understand that what I said is true and learn for yourself how gun tracking works in Eve.
At 33 sig rad w/ 3k transversal velocity it says it hits 0% of the time. At 500 sig rad w/ 3k transversal velocity it says it hits 0% of the time.
And yes I hit "Start Caculations" each time.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:29:00 -
[13]
You seem to be confused by the term "tracking".
Lets take a RL example, for giggles. You have machine gun fitted on a combat jet. Sweet.
You have two targets. One is a bumblebee. It's really tiny. Will you be able to track it with your big, slow jet? No, it darts around fairly quickly, and even if you were the best sharpshooter alive, you can't maneuver your jet quickly enough to follow it.
You have another target. It's a barn, with jet engines strapped on it. It moves around at the same speed as the bumblebee, but due to it's much larger size, you can blast a giant hole through it.
Target painter makes bumblebees turn into barns. Therefore, help you track better.
This service was brought to you by the minds at AstroPhobic IncÖ.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: The Hanz
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 14/07/2008 02:21:50
Originally by: The Hanz Learn to read. Tracking speed has to do with their orbit speed and range.
Signature radius effects how often the gun hits based on its signature resolution.
Two completely different things.
For missiles, they are separate. And each one reduces damage on its own. For guns, they aren't. And basically, sig radius versus sig resolution acts as a modifier on tracking.
Provided you are having trouble tracking a target, then any sig radius increase on the target (even if it allready has a larger sig radius than the sig resolution of the guns shooting at it) will make the guns track better.
You followed the link. Now all you need to do is to go to the 5th page there and play around with the numbers to understand that what I said is true and learn for yourself how gun tracking works in Eve.
At 33 sig rad w/ 3k transversal velocity it says it hits 0% of the time. At 500 sig rad w/ 3k transversal velocity it says it hits 0% of the time.
And yes I hit "Start Caculations" each time.
Put in values where you have some probability of hitting (not 0) but still not perfect tracking, and where the sig radius is larger than the sig resolution on the gun. Then increase the sig radius.
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I'm not as think as you drunk I am. |
The Hanz
Caldari Will It Blend
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: AstroPhobic You seem to be confused by the term "tracking".
Lets take a RL example, for giggles. You have machine gun fitted on a combat jet. Sweet.
You have two targets. One is a bumblebee. It's really tiny. Will you be able to track it with your big, slow jet? No, it darts around fairly quickly, and even if you were the best sharpshooter alive, you can't maneuver your jet quickly enough to follow it.
You have another target. It's a barn, with jet engines strapped on it. It moves around at the same speed as the bumblebee, but due to it's much larger size, you can blast a giant hole through it.
Target painter makes bumblebees turn into barns. Therefore, help you track better.
This service was brought to you by the minds at AstroPhobic IncÖ.
Well lets try to take down a ceptor orbiting at 6k/s at 20km with 425 rails on a Hyperion on the test server with the ceptor all target painted up. I doubt it will it will get hit. The target being bigger does not make your guns turn faster. The Bismarck is a better example in the fact that it's AA guns couldn't track SLOW enough (the opposite of what we're arguing about really) to shoot down those old British torpedo bombers.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:45:00 -
[16]
The point you're missing is eve doesnt care what part of the ship you hit, just that you hit. If we were talking about centers, then perhaps.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.14 05:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: The Hanz
Originally by: AstroPhobic You seem to be confused by the term "tracking".
Lets take a RL example, for giggles. You have machine gun fitted on a combat jet. Sweet.
You have two targets. One is a bumblebee. It's really tiny. Will you be able to track it with your big, slow jet? No, it darts around fairly quickly, and even if you were the best sharpshooter alive, you can't maneuver your jet quickly enough to follow it.
You have another target. It's a barn, with jet engines strapped on it. It moves around at the same speed as the bumblebee, but due to it's much larger size, you can blast a giant hole through it.
Target painter makes bumblebees turn into barns. Therefore, help you track better.
This service was brought to you by the minds at AstroPhobic IncÖ.
Well lets try to take down a ceptor orbiting at 6k/s at 20km with 425 rails on a Hyperion on the test server with the ceptor all target painted up. I doubt it will it will get hit. The target being bigger does not make your guns turn faster. The Bismarck is a better example in the fact that it's AA guns couldn't track SLOW enough (the opposite of what we're arguing about really) to shoot down those old British torpedo bombers.
I was under this impression for quite a long time myself until I started using gun ships from time to time. The implication is that your guns track at X speed max - if you exceed that speed hits are hard to come by. It also would seem that your guns grouping is nothing but a potential negative modifier - afterall if your guns can handily group on the large target making the target larger doesn't really make it fundamentally easier to hit.
Of course, larger targets occupy more space in general, meaning what was a near miss on a small ship could become a hit. It know it seems strange but increasing signature radius really really does increase the tracking abilities of guns, indeed outside of PVE i'd say TP's are more of a benefit for gun users these days than missile users. It might not make much sense (afterall, a MWDing ship doesn't really get any bigger, just easier to spot for your sensors, same with a TP'd ship, as such it won't affect the mechanical grouping of your guns or so you'd think), but that is how it works - you can test it for yourself. Of course, if you want to try, pick a scenario where it's actually possible to hit the inty. Maybe if you had a couple golem's TPing the inty AND you maxed out on tracking mods you MIGHT have a shot at landing a hit at 10 km using 425mm railguns. A better option would be autocannons or pulse lasers, or even blasters with long range ammo.
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Marion Rendois
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Posted - 2008.07.14 05:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Marion Rendois on 14/07/2008 06:02:56 Edited by: Marion Rendois on 14/07/2008 05:58:56 Yes, target painters do increase the amount of damage you can do to small targets. EVE Missile Guide
No, your missiles will not hit a target travelling at 6km/s. That's what the webber part of the web & paint motif is all about.
Open that Missile Guide, go to the last page. Type in "5000" for the target speed in that guide, then see what the difference is between your raw DPS and target-painter-assisted DPS. Now look at the difference between raw DPS and webifier-assisted DPS. Then turn on your target painter and webber together! WOOT!
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.07.14 06:38:00 -
[19]
A misconception about "painter is useless for guns vs fast MWDed target" comes from 2 things:
- Missile users - because sig factor and speed factor are totally independent for missiles - Tracking guide, where the explanation doesnt really show that sigrad/sigres ratio is a modifier to tracking, not an independent check. It can be seen from calculator in the end of a guide though, but not everyone bothers to play with numbers.
Final truth - a painter effect on turret DPS works in such a way that it will increase a chace to hit by a modifier if CTH is small, or decrease the chance to miss by same modifier if CTH is high.
In effect: - if your chance to hit is 5% and you apply painter, chance will become around 7%. You will hardly notice the effect, because you still miss way to often to engage reliably. - if your CTH is 90%, painter will make it around 94%, which you will hardly notice either - you are hitting the target very well anyway. - if your CTH is 40%, painter will make it around 55%, thus giving a considerable boost to your effective DPS.
By the way, tracking computer affects your effective DPS exactly the same way, but TP can be skilled up to be more efficient than TC, plus helps all the gang. It has a limited range though.
To the OP - no, TP on your Drake will not help you to kill ceptors, because sig and speed factors for missiles are independent. Your missiles wont catch a supersonic elephant, just like they wont catch a supersonic sparrow.
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.14 07:00:00 -
[20]
at first, even after playing around with the turret guide, i always assumed that the trackingformula is only a function of transversal and range. and after it determined whether you hit or not, sigradius and stuff gets taken into account for damage calculations.
i thought its like this for years.
but then i read this, which pretty much says sig radius is a multiplier on tracking.
iirc thats not what the tracking guide suggests.
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 08:56:00 -
[21]
Just as many ppl stated before:
* TPs + missiles = will help you hit something your missiles can catch up to (speed AND explosion velocity wise) harder. If your target "speed-tanks" your missiles, then TPs won't fix that.
* TPs + turrets = will help you track better and hit harder at the same time.
* TPs true strength is their global effect = you (all) can benefit out of multiple TPs painting the same target in a gang, while you cannot utilize your fleet-mate's TC/TEs... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
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