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Salvage - a New Perspective?

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Slinkus Gallentus Gallente S.T.D. Productions presents....	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:49:00 - [1] Been discussing this in another thread. Input from adults there has sparked a few ideas and I want to run them by you all, so don't see this as a whine thread. It's a genuine effort to increase gameplay in Eve. 1. Salvage, as it stands, can be had by anyone. 2. Mission runners fight factions. 3. People register with factions as salvagers for that faction. They are given a scan probe that shows them where there is salvage for that faction. 4. They have 90 mins from the time the wreck was created to legally (that is legally as far as their faction is concerned)to salvage the wreck. 5. If a mission runner finds you salvaging their wrecks they have the option to shoot at you and risk being ganked for a bit of salvage. 6. Once the wreck is 90 mins old it can be salvaged by anyone. 7. This can include loot as well. Any thoughts, suggestions? Adults only need reply. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.15 12:57:00 - [2] I like it. To elucidate: it seems unlike capsuleers not to defend what they see as theirs (and the forum has demonstrated that salvage is seen as theirs regardless of what CCP says), and it seems unlike CONCORD to over-police, but at the same time people should be able to salvage safely. This covers all that. Although the registration thing seems a bit much, just put (yet) another status on wrecks marked them as still 'owned' or not and leave it at that. Finally, and most importantly, Posting in a salvage thread. - DesuSigs
MenanceWhite Amarr Red Light Navy	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:00:00 - [3] 6. Once the wreck is 90 mins old it can be salvaged by anyone. No, because plexes will have despawned untill that. Otherwise it'd just clog down the server. It does'nt make any sense backstory wise eitherways. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Banana Torres Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:04:00 - [4] Step 2 is incorrect, sometimes you fight rouge drones, or show religious zealots which side God is on, or have to stop a thief, or have to deprive a perv of his **** stash. Just make the wreck belong to the person that got the final blow. And make salvaging someones elses wreck a criminal offence. I would add a futher step. People who whine on the forums about how the were ganked when a salavager bit them back have their name changed to "Whiney Caldary Carebear".
Gaven Blands Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:15:00 - [5] I don't see what you are trying to achieve, apart from being allowed to shoot people for salvaging, why don't you just say that? I am in favour of flashing red in your overview while you are in your mission space, whether or not I looted your stuff or salvage. That is to say, I'm not against your suggestion. In my experience your suggestion would just give more opportunities for people to NOT fire at somebody. Everybody falls for it one time, they don't fall for it a second time. That which you suggest will not lead to anything you think it will. It will just lead to you losing a battleship and never shooting at people who salvage your wrecks. The only other thing your suggestion could lead to is more salvaging being done, and price reductions on rigs. Though that part of your solution is nothing to do with salvage shoot-rights, and thus a separate issue. Since there is no problem with rig pricing (they're expensive, deal with it), it doesn't need addressing. So, One, veiled salvage whinefix that won't achieve the results expected. Two, Rig pricing considerations that could do with not being considered. Three, 90 minute freedom timer suggests a 30 minute window to salvage free wrecks, since do they not de-spawn after 2 hours like cans. Pointless somewhat?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 1. Salvage, as it stands, can be had by anyone. Working as intended. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 2. Mission runners fight factions. Ok, given. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 3. People register with factions as salvagers for that faction. They are given a scan probe that shows them where there is salvage for that faction. Scan probes currently do not do this, however, if I am going to support your idea, why not have specific Scan Probes that allow me to do the same, only for all wrecks? Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 4. They have 90 mins from the time the wreck was created to legally (that is legally as far as their faction is concerned)to salvage the wreck. No. See your point 1, "Salvage, as it stands, can be had by anyone." I see no reason to change this. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 5. If a mission runner finds you salvaging their wrecks they have the option to shoot at you and risk being ganked for a bit of salvage. Why change the mechanic so that it's imbalanced against my profession. You already have aggro for looting. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 6. Once the wreck is 90 mins old it can be salvaged by anyone. This implies a change to salvage rights, which I do not agree with. If anything, the salvage and looting rights for wrecks should remain with the owner of the wreck itself, regardless of the Player or NPC Rat. This is the way it is for PvP, so why should it be different for PvE? Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 7. This can include loot as well. Aggro rights for looting already apply. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Any thoughts, suggestions? I've given mine. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Adults only need reply. I believe I have provided a mature opinion, so I look forward to any rebuttal you may have. We're Recruiting!
CetusOfAsuran well of Urd	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:53:00 - [7] dont personally think anything needs changing, i mean seriously salvage aint worth the time, yes loot can be but slavage just isnt. Salvage "ninjas"(still think ninja is totally wrong) are allowed by ccp because they help to declutter space, ccp is not and will not change the dynamics on salvage as it cant be done im sure for just missions. If they gonna do anything just lock the mission area would be the simplest, acceleration gate needs a key, agent gives you said key when you accept mission, key goes poof when mission complete and closed. Salvage "mops" then have free reign over anyones salvage after its complete if they want it that badly. until then i willkeep on not bothering with salvaging and selling the bookmark when im done. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792173&page=2
Ozmodan Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:54:00 - [8] I think Salvage should be available for anyone. Pvp rules are confusing enough without adding salvage to the equation. CCP realized this from the start hence the free salvage rules. I like the way it is, changes just will add more confusion and complexity to the game. While some might like it, it is a definite problem for new players. Learners permit still current
MineralOel Steuer Amarr OP EC	Posted - 2008.07.15 16:01:00 - [9] Quoting myself from this other thread you created. Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Is this a PvP game or not? yes it is. So why are you mission whoring in Empire Space? I see, so on your planet mission running and pvp cant happen? sure it can, that's why this thread is so funny. You complain that you can't shoot players that salvage stuff in your mission. Solution: Go to low security or null security space. You can shoot whoever you like and Concord won't intervent. The only numbers I care about are 3-2-1-launch..*
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 16:07:00 - [10] Originally by: CetusOfAsuran Salvage "ninjas"(still think ninja is totally wrong)... <snip> Salvage "mops" then have free reign over anyones salvage after its complete if they want it that badly. Since we're changing names, I vote that we change "Mission Runners" to "Self Gratification Engineers", since you're really not playing with anyone except yourselves. We're Recruiting!
Gatu Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 16:31:00 - [11] OP, you've already got one fail thread with this same basic idea presented. Why double post? Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Since we're changing names, I vote that we change "Mission Runners" to "Self Gratification Engineers", since you're really not playing with anyone except yourselves. I thought there was already an accepted term for people who mostly just play with themselves.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.07.15 19:15:00 - [12] How would this work in lowsec/0.0?
Feng Schui Minmatar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.15 19:20:00 - [13] Mmm, no. I'm personally an advocate of having wrecks show up on scan probes, with the minor exception that while in a deadspace area, the signature of the wrecks are 0 (un-scannable). This takes care of the salvagers, and also addresses the concern that CCP and the mission runners have of it being extremely easy to scan down a mission runner. Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
Samantha Azurelace Gallente Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.07.15 19:24:00 - [14] All your thoughts on salvage are broken and wrong... In 0.0 there are thousands of farmers who dont salvage. They usually log when u enter. They chain triple bs spawns. They leave behind the wrecks. THUS--with a decent cruiser and a cloaking device, you can go to ANY 0.0 and have 1000 bs a day to salvage if you so want. Some people go to the angel space 0.0 and then salvage 200-300 bs a day for the trit bars. Some of the farmers are so unskilled to eve that they leave the faction rats in the belts, like the domination rats. On top of salvage, you get faction loot. My point is all ur thoughts on salvage are chump change to the isk sieve that is 0.0 farmers and the people who salvage them. What if all ur thoughts on salvage account for 10% of the total salvage in game? See my point? You are debating changing salvage for 10% of the game...
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.07.15 19:47:00 - [15] Simpler version I posted nearly a year ago: 1) For 30 minutes the wreck is yours. Only you can salvage, tractor, and loot it. Anyone else salvages or loots they get a thief flag. 2) The remaining 90(ish) minutes it's up for grabs. Anyone can salvage, tractor, and loot it. 3) CCP puts the Wrecks back on the scan category list and any wrecks become probeable. Same deadspace limitations to sig strength. And wrecks should be nearly impossible to scan down while in a deadspace if for no other reason to avoid even more whining about missions getting scanned out. - Whiners get a timeframe when wrecks actually are theirs. Move it or lose it. - Ninja salvagers get a nice flag to play with if they want. - Anyone else can salvage, loot, what have you after the 30 minutes without having to worry about getting flagged. - An actual "salvager" profession can become feasible in empire that doesn't involve having to scan down missions as they are being run since wrecks outside a deadspace should be possible to find. - As a side benefit to the above point, rigs should drop in price because serious isk/lp farming mission runners don't salvage. And they leave a metric crap ton of salvage behind that just sits around in systems for 2 hours. Done. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 19:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Feng Schui This takes care of the salvagers, and also addresses the concern that CCP and the mission runners have of *it being extremely easy to scan down a mission runner.* Wrong, but close. Sure, it's pretty easy to get a hit on a Mission Runner, however, if you're searching for a specific one, it's difficult, since they nerfed the power of scan probes by a ridiculous amount. That being said, if you're in a Mission Running Hub, and there's 200+ people in local, chances are, you can find more than a few on a good scan. If you rescan again, the result is totally random, and you might not find the same Mission Runner twice. We're Recruiting!
Calacheng Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 1. Salvage, as it stands, can be had by anyone. Working as intended. That is because CCP hasn't figured out how to fix it yet. Quote: Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 3. People register with factions as salvagers for that faction. They are given a scan probe that shows them where there is salvage for that faction. Scan probes currently do not do this, however, if I am going to support your idea, why not have specific Scan Probes that allow me to do the same, only for all wrecks? That could work only if it can't scan anything inside deadspace while the mission is running. Only after the mission has been returned or it has expired it would work. Quote: Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 5. If a mission runner finds you salvaging their wrecks they have the option to shoot at you and risk being ganked for a bit of salvage. Why change the mechanic so that it's imbalanced against my profession. You already have aggro for looting. Why should you be able to safely steal the results of the mission runners efforts and be protected by Concorde. Quote: Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 6. Once the wreck is 90 mins old it can be salvaged by anyone. This implies a change to salvage rights, which I do not agree with. If anything, the salvage and looting rights for wrecks should remain with the owner of the wreck itself, regardless of the Player or NPC Rat. This is the way it is for PvP, so why should it be different for PvE? Why should PVE be same like PVP? There is no reason for that. Quote: Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus 7. This can include loot as well. Aggro rights for looting already apply. And it should apply for salvage also. Quote: Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Any thoughts, suggestions? I've given mine. And i have given mine. Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Adults only need reply. I believe I have provided a mature opinion, so I look forward to any rebuttal you may have. Yes, but quite selfish.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Calacheng That is because CCP hasn't figured out how to fix it yet. Since when does "working as intended" mean anything more than, "this is the way we want it, so grow up"? Originally by: Calacheng That could work only if it can't scan anything inside deadspace while the mission is running. Only after the mission has been returned or it has expired it would work. Who gave you free reign over Deadspace? Originally by: Calacheng Why should you be able to safely steal the results of the mission runners efforts and be protected by Concorde. Why not? (See? I can make stupid generalizations as well.) Originally by: Calacheng Why should PVE be same like PVP? There is no reason for that. Oh, I don't know... How about CONSISTENCY? Damn, I really didn't think you needed to be told that. Originally by: Calacheng And it should apply for salvage also. Says you. Originally by: Calacheng And i have given mine. Good for you. Want a cookie? Originally by: Calacheng Yes, but quite selfish. Cry more. /me uses her "Don LaFontaine" voice... In a world where Salvage is free... ...a bunch of whiners complain that the game is not as they wish! Enter one Corporation... Salvaging... EVERYTHING!!! Coming soon, to a Deadspace near you... Suddenly, Ninjas! HUNDREDS OF THEM!!! (Rated M for Mature. Must have sense of humor, and at least, a little common sense. Mission Runners admitted with Parent or Guardian.) We're Recruiting!
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:43:00 - [19] All posts from the nice people from Suddenly Ninjas aside... The mechanic is working as CCP wants it to work. It really is not broken, why does it need to be 'fixed'? Deadspace is intended to be invadeable (is that even a word?), salvage is intended to be free to all. This is the way the game is, if you do not like this, nobody is forcing you to play the game, the door is that way... -=^=-
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus Been discussing this in another thread. Input from adults there has sparked a few ideas and I want to run them by you all, so don't see this as a whine thread. It's a genuine effort to increase gameplay in Eve. 1. Salvage, as it stands, can be had by anyone. 2. Mission runners fight factions. 3. People register with factions as salvagers for that faction. They are given a scan probe that shows them where there is salvage for that faction. 4. They have 90 mins from the time the wreck was created to legally (that is legally as far as their faction is concerned)to salvage the wreck. 5. If a mission runner finds you salvaging their wrecks they have the option to shoot at you and risk being ganked for a bit of salvage. 6. Once the wreck is 90 mins old it can be salvaged by anyone. 7. This can include loot as well. Any thoughts, suggestions? Adults only need reply. I wouldn't oppose the idea, but I don't think it's optimal. My counter suggestion: The player that kills the NPC owns the wreck for 2-3 hours, or until such time as they accept a new mission. Then the wrecks become FFA. Or, to incorporate, part of your idea, they become scannable as a wreck site by professional salvagers. Alternatively, before the timer runs out, or before accepting a new mission, the mission runner can sell via contracts or the market a bookmark to the wrecks once the mission is turned in, and the game mechanics enforce a few things. Salvaging any of the wrecks makes it impossible to sell the bookmark. Thus ensuring the salvagers aren't simply scammed. Each mission may have multiple bookmarks to each room, they're sold as a unit. Once sold, the wrecks become property of the salvager that bought the bookmarks. The system should support the inclusion of can contents as well as salvage. Benefits: Salvaging can become a serious profession without significant skill investment. Mission runners stop whining on the forums. Mission runners retain some profits. Salvagers get more profits, with less effort. In the spirit of EVE, the market can dictate the value of a given mission's wreck bookmarks. Malicious salvagers can no longer use salvage mechanics to cause grief with impunity. Drawbacks: Requires significant effort on CCP's part. Malicious salvagers can no longer use salvage mechanics to cause grief with impunity. (Malicious salvagers will see this one as a drawback.) - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: CetusOfAsuran Salvage "ninjas"(still think ninja is totally wrong)... <snip> Salvage "mops" then have free reign over anyones salvage after its complete if they want it that badly. Since we're changing names, I vote that we change "Mission Runners" to "Self Gratification Engineers", since you're really not playing with anyone except yourselves. Never done a mission with a friend, eh? They do support gangs of up to 10 members. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Simpler version I posted nearly a year ago: 1) For 30 minutes the wreck is yours. Only you can salvage, tractor, and loot it. Anyone else salvages or loots they get a thief flag. 2) The remaining 90(ish) minutes it's up for grabs. Anyone can salvage, tractor, and loot it. 3) CCP puts the Wrecks back on the scan category list and any wrecks become probeable. Same deadspace limitations to sig strength. And wrecks should be nearly impossible to scan down while in a deadspace if for no other reason to avoid even more whining about missions getting scanned out. - Whiners get a timeframe when wrecks actually are theirs. Move it or lose it. - Ninja salvagers get a nice flag to play with if they want. - Anyone else can salvage, loot, what have you after the 30 minutes without having to worry about getting flagged. - An actual "salvager" profession can become feasible in empire that doesn't involve having to scan down missions as they are being run since wrecks outside a deadspace should be possible to find. - As a side benefit to the above point, rigs should drop in price because serious isk/lp farming mission runners don't salvage. And they leave a metric crap ton of salvage behind that just sits around in systems for 2 hours. Done. The problem with this is, many missions last more than 30 minutes. And as many have pointed out, salvaging in most mission ships is impractical. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Billy Sastard All posts from the nice people from Suddenly Ninjas aside... The mechanic is working as CCP wants it to work. It really is not broken, why does it need to be 'fixed'? Deadspace is intended to be invadeable (is that even a word?), salvage is intended to be free to all. This is the way the game is, if you do not like this, nobody is forcing you to play the game, the door is that way... Interpreting how the game works today is not a guarantee that that's how CCP wants it to work for the indefinite future. And thus, discussion can and should continue. See any change in the history of EVE as an example. Cruisers used to be the biggest ships available. Torps used to be AoE. Nanos used to have much stronger affects. At one time, you could fit multiple MWDs or afterburners. NOS used to be overpowered. ECM used to be overpowered. Damps used to be overpowered. Just because they don't change it for months (or even years) doesn't mean that's how they want it to work. There is plenty of proof in EVE's history. Perhaps one day we'll be able to say, "mission salvage used to be FFA immediately". And "salvaging wasn't always a viable profession for newbies". - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Since we're changing names, I vote that we change "Mission Runners" to "Self Gratification Engineers", since you're really not playing with anyone except yourselves. PVPer's must be E-peen strokers then since they have to shoot at other players to make themselves feel hard WE each have our own playstyle, lets leave it at that. Back on topic. Salvage rights would not benefit from change at all. You would simply encourage griefers looking for easy targets who warp into mission space baiting mission runners. Since a mission runner is not set up for PVP, it would be suicide to fire on them. However, it would be funny to see a PVPer half heartedly doing a low level mission to bait those griefers -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
Calacheng Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:51:00 - [25] Edited by: Calacheng on 15/07/2008 21:54:53 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Who gave you free reign over Deadspace? Deadspaces are separated from normal space due to natural phenomena. They spawn when the mission is accepted and despawn when the mission is returned or it expires. So it is private area for the person/gang who is/are doing a mission there and when it is done the area where the deadspace were will be open for everyone. Atleast that's how it should be and CCP should make it that way. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Calacheng Why should you be able to safely steal the results of the mission runners efforts and be protected by Concorde. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Why not? (See? I can make stupid generalizations as well.) Did you just call your comments stupid? I think you did. Originally by: Calacheng Why should PVE be same like PVP? There is no reason for that. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Oh, I don't know... How about CONSISTENCY? Damn, I really didn't think you needed to be told that. Hows this for CONSISTENCY?? This is from another thread. Originally by: Xaen Seven out of eight game mechanics support that the wreck is owned by the mission runner. The name of the player that killed the NPC is the one on the wreck. The picture of the player that killed the NPC is the one on the wreck. The sec status of the player that killed the NPC is the one on the wreck. The corp tag of the player that killed the NPC is the one on the wreck. Only the person that killed the NPC, their gang mates, or their player corpmates can destroy the wreck without concord intervention. Only the person that killed the NPC, their gang mates, or their player corpmates can tractor the wreck. If someone else tries to tractor the wreck they get a message that states that you cannot tractor it be cause "the wreck does not belong to you" Only one out of eight says it doesn't belong to anyone. This INCONSISTENCY must be fixed. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Calacheng And i have given mine. Good for you. Want a cookie? Sure. Send me a packet.
kyoukoku	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:58:00 - [26] It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. If you want to redefine what salvaging is then go take it up with the Maritime organisations & the folks who compile dictionaries cos they will all disagree with you. end of story. move along. nothing further to discuss. Ninja Salvaging ain't stealing from desusig.crumplecorn.com
Elysarian Minmatar dudetruck corp	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Elysarian on 15/07/2008 22:22:14 Originally by: Calacheng Edited by: Calacheng on 15/07/2008 21:57:09 Deadspaces are separated from normal space due to natural phenomena. They spawn when the mission is accepted and despawn when the mission is returned or it expires. So it is private area for the person/gang who is/are doing a mission there and when it is done the area where the deadspace were will be open for everyone. Atleast that's how it should be and CCP should make it that way. So... you're saying deadspace should be like "instanced dungeons" here you (and ISK farmers) can do whatever you like for as long as you like with no risk? Eve is a big, scary cold place where people WILL kill you for no reason - if you want the protection of instanced dungeons then go play a game where such a thing suits the mechanics. (I really can't believe I managed to type all of that without deleting it and typing "GB2WOW") *EDIT: Nothing wrong with salvaging the way it is now as I've said on every other salvage-whine thread I've replied on.
Nathanial Victor Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:29:00 - [28] banana banana banana terracotta banana terracotta terracotta pie banana banana banana terracotta banana terracotta terracotta pie terracotta pie terracotta pie terracotta pie terracotta pie "one more spam thread will get you a warning. - Thanks Hutch. " isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'? my head hurts
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:33:00 - [29] Two things. 1. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. 2. EVE is a Pee Vee Pee game. PVP. Player versus Player.
Dzajic	Posted - 2008.07.15 22:52:00 - [30] To pee vee pee, you need money, to get money you rat or run missions and loot/salvage. Or you take dad's credit card, buy couple billion isk, get a nice skilled account, nice ships and brag about how leet you are.

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