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Dumb question of the day - Target Painters.

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Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:36:00 - [1] Hey. I've been discussing with my corp mates about ways I could assist them in their Pvx activities (x being everything) and we had a short talk on Target Painters. Since no-one in the corp uses them, or has had any experience in using them, we're not 100% certain on how they work, so I thought I'd check here. From what I can tell, this module increases the target's signature radius so that everyone that attacks benefits, i.e. the bonus does not only apply to the player with the Target Painter. Am I right on this?
Daftex Muleson Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:40:00 - [2] Yar...pretty sure that's it. I think they are basically more effective when using missiles rather than guns.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Zaknussem ... From what I can tell, this module increases the target's signature radius so that everyone that attacks benefits, i.e. the bonus does not only apply to the player with the Target Painter. Am I right on this? Not completely, but very close. A tp will indeed increase the target's sig radius. This means that everybody that uses that sig radius will benefit. Mostly that will be the attckers yes, but friendly logistics will be able to lock your target faster too. Just remember that a target painter also has an optimal and fall off. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.07.15 13:48:00 - [4] Originally by: Daftex Muleson I think they are basically more effective when using missiles rather than guns. This is a very widespread myth, based on the fact that target painters increase missile damage directly. However, they only increase it until missiles do 100% damage, so it is irrelevant if you target is already big enough. Target painters increase turret tracking in a strange sort of reverse logic: a small signature radius will decrease tracking, so increasing it will increase tracking. However, unlike with missiles, there's no hard cap on how much you can increase your turret tracking. For example, you might be shooting at something that's already bigger than the signature resolution of your turrets, but you still cannot hit it because, for example, it goes freaking fast and/or is very close. You can keep increasing the enemy's size, and you will track it better. Until you hit perfectly, as if your target was stationary. So, both for missiles and turrets, target painting can be very useful. It depends on your target and situation which of the two applications is more effective in that moment.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.07.15 14:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 15/07/2008 14:12:46 The question of is TPing targets for your freinds is useful will largerly depend on the ships your friends use and targets they engage. TP can aid missiles if you engage relatively small but relatively slow target. Classic example is Torpedo ships - Raven or Typhoon. Problem is with targest - small sig-low speed ship is very rare in PvP, where MWDs are mandatory, and in PvE its usually not worth the effort - smaller rats can be taken out easy by drones or a combat ship of cruiser-class, not much need for painter. TP can aid turrets if they have problems with tracking, which they almaost always do, in fact. Apart from long-range fleet combat maybe - but at those distances TP is useless anyway. So if your friends fly a gang with turret ships, your Bellicose can boost their effective DPS allright. Munins, Zealots, Arty Hurricanes, Beam Harbingers, AC Tempests, Blaster Hyperions, Pulse Geddons and many more - they can ALWAYS use extra tracking. But dont expect them to hug you right away - problem with TP is that it doesnt show. I mean, if you web a guy, everybody sees the benefit. If yo scramble, jam, damp, kill - its always obvious. But increase in the DPS of your mates will not show that readily, so you not gonna be credited for yhe victory :) --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Hannobaal Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.15 15:33:00 - [6] Edited by: Hannobaal on 15/07/2008 15:35:40 Originally by: Daftex Muleson Yar...pretty sure that's it. I think they are basically more effective when using missiles rather than guns. It's mostly the other way around. Especially so with the prevalence of mwd and the fact that (like Ishina wrote) a target painter will only help missiles if the target's sig radius is smaller than the missile's explosion radius, while guns will always benefit from a target painter against a target they are having trouble tracking even if the target's sig radius is allready larger than their guns' sig resolution before the painting. It's mostly torpedos and citadel torpedos that benefit from a target painter as missiles go, while even frigate size turrets can usually benfit from them when it comes to guns. --------------- I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.15 18:02:00 - [7] Target painters are actually a little-used defence against nanos. Well, not defence as such, but they increase your offensive capabilities against them, since a 40% increase in signature radius is equivalent to a 40% increase in tracking for every turret firing at that target. Medium(-sized) pulse lasers with Scorch will already track nanoships pretty well at 17-24km ranges; with one or two (bonused) target painters on the nanoship they'll hardly ever miss. And with all non-Minmatar nanoships having a bit EM resist hole in their buffer and Scorch doing 90% EM damage... Of course, it's not just pulse lasers that benefit - anything that can reach out to that range and had a reasonable chance of hitting before will track even better now. It's just that pulse lasers are the best weapon to use in this case, and when paired with target painters they are downright nasty. And TPs often help in battleship combat too if you have torpedo boats; often the primary will be webbed (so velocity isn't an issue) and not be using a MWD (so his sig radius will actually be less than the explosion radius of the torps) and thus you'll contribute a damage increase there. TPs help a lot in certain situations, but then there are others where they're not doing much, and even when they do help it's in a way that's easy to overlook if you're not looking for it - which is why they don't make it onto cookie cutter setups. But they're not actually that bad.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:02:00 - [8] Plus they look cool... __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:18:00 - [9] Thank you very much for answering my question, as well as for all the tips and advice. Now to go shopping for pink target paint...
Arous Drephius Alpha Research Group	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:01:00 - [10] Originally by: The Tzar Plus they look cool... And have names like PWNAGE
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:02:00 - [11] so... a TP is generally more effective than any tracing computer? Something weird in the calculation.
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Thirzarr so... a TP is generally more effective than any tracing computer? Something weird in the calculation. Up close and personal, (10km-13km or more if you are packing faction gear), webs are the way to go because slowing anything down by 80% or more is of far more benefit than any boost to signature radius or your guns tracking. At extreme ranges (100+km), tracking computers are the way to go. Target painters have limited range and won't directly improve your guns range. For everything in between, target painters are often the better choice. They help both missile and gun performance and said help applies to your gangmates as well. There are other factors to consider of course; cap use, primary weapon systems, solo fit vs. gang fit, etc. but the guidelines above work for most situations. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Thirzarr so... a TP is generally more effective than any tracing computer? Yes, in general, except that the effective range of a painter is limited (whereas a tracking computer 'just works' on your guns' actual tracking attribute), and you don't get the option that a TC gives you of switching to a range script as the situation dictates. However, painters do give you a greater bonus (due to the Signature Focusing skill or the fact that best named is better for TPs than TCs, and ship bonuses for Minmatar EW ships), and affect everyone in your gang including your drone, so unless you intend to engage at long ranges or fly extremely solo, a painter is a better bet in general.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer	Posted - 2008.07.16 12:43:00 - [14] Increased signature radius means turrets can mroe easily hit the target, people can lock quicker, and larger missiles do more damage to smaller targets. ----------------- Friends Forever
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.16 13:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Zaknussem Hey. I've been discussing with my corp mates about ways I could assist them in their Pvx activities (x being everything) and we had a short talk on Target Painters. Since no-one in the corp uses them, or has had any experience in using them, we're not 100% certain on how they work, so I thought I'd check here. From what I can tell, this module increases the target's signature radius so that everyone that attacks benefits, i.e. the bonus does not only apply to the player with the Target Painter. Am I right on this? 95% of the time, a web is more useful than a target painter. If they're already webbed, I suppose a painter might help more, but web first, then paint. The problem is the targets where you need a painter the most are actually the same ones where it has the least effect since painters are percentage based. An interceptor without its MWD on has a tiny sig radius. Like 20m. Add 30% from a painter: 26m. Still smaller than your average frigate. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs

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