Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni

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While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;

Originally by: "Nozh"

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Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.

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In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.

There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.

As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.

Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.

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Originally by: Koyama Ise

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An AB isn't viable for an interceptor as you're not going fast enough, I mean yes the polycarbons even though I like them I'll accept they're over-powered but an intie going 2000m will be hit by cruiser guns if it is orbiting at 10km as it is going around 0.06451612 rs^-1 which Focused Pulse lasers have a base tracking of 0.09 rs^-1 that and a paper thin tank intie goes pop. Cruise missiles can hit an intie at that speed mean stealth bombers will probably be able to kill it and ravens will as well assuming they're using cruises or have decent skills in gunnery, hybrid and laser ships will just have to rely on drones, which by the way, light T2 hobgoblins or T2 Valkyries will own an intie. And before anyone mentions MWD the idea to put a scram point on an intie will die which supports blob tactics if MWD's are used as this will be a less brain less skill intesive way to deal with it.
Finally, from what I've read, CPP Nozh is one of the Nano whiners as this while being somewhat thought out not enough has been placed into this and rather than being balance it's more of a succumb to the nano-whiners hotfix.

P.S. Does this mean it's time to sell my interceptor?

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Originally by: KayO

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Originally by: Ikvar

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BLASTER SHIPS ARE NOW BALANCED.

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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As a mission runner who has never going into 0.0 or used a micro warp drive,

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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Vagabond:
High: nothing
Med: 10mn microwarpdrive
Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2

Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2

Implants. full snake set.

No special named modules etc.

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Originally by: Asero

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[Vagabond, Nano]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile

Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Hobgoblin II x5

that includes NO implants and NO gang bonuses.

gives me 5654 speed and a 6.4sec align time

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Originally by: Tixxie Lix

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Well I always knew this would be coming.

I'm surprised by how thorough it is, looks well thought out, I think it'll be a good move.

PS: To all those that flamed me before saying this would never happen.....I told you so......

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Well thought out? Hardly. It took 4 people only 5 hours to "solve" a problem that has been around for two years.

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Originally by: Haakelen

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Because CCP is obviously most forward looking and non-myopic, see also cyno jammers, remote DD, passive shield tanks, jump bridges, and etc.

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Originally by: Arkady Sadik

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Training Reading Comprehension beyond level 1 should be a pre-req for Forum Warrior ...

1) CCP talked for five hours about the goals, not the implementation. A five hour meeting about "what do we actually want" ("what", not "how") is quite a lot of work.
2) The graphs they published (4km/s inty) are for ships with all skills to 5, 1mn MWD II, no modules, no implants, etc.
3) The 2x ODI II, 2x aux thruster vaga was a test setup to see how fast you can push a Vagabond (hint: After the change, that's the "max speed" stup, with the 4th module having 28% effectiveness; usually not done, but still "max speed").

Uh, sorry for the interruption, please go ahead.

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Originally by: Korinn

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

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yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them.
that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .

btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:

Linkage

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Looks like a roaming hac / CMD ship gang there, a couple of vagas for tackling so they'd obviously be quite fast but there is NOTHING there to suggest that any of the other ships are nanoed and it's very likely they aren't.

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Originally by: Kira Novia

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Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.

You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.

Good show, Gents. Good show.

By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.

Smooth.

You win the internets.

I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.

BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.

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Originally by: Kira Novia

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Edited by: Kira Novia on 27/07/2008 19:54:23

Originally by: Natalia Kovac

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Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 27/07/2008 19:51:31

Originally by: Alkie

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Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.

T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.

Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike

Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?

Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.

Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.

Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.

Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.

The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.

Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.

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Quoting for great truth. I was actually all set up for cross-training into Gallente because the Minmatar BS are average to crap. Also I like the Ishtar. Now... I won't bother. I also won't bother paying for this game anymore.

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Quoted for quoting a quote of truth.

CCP effectively kills the Gallente blaster boats with this nerf.

CCP screws Minmatar even more.

CCP, I am so very close to telling you to shove this game. It's been a fun ride. But if you're going to kill it to this extreme, there's no point in playing anymore.

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Originally by: Euriti

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Originally by: Stab Wounds

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Originally by: Kira Novia

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Well CCP, you've done it. You have officially killed the Gallente blaster boats. Blasters have such a short range as is that the -only- way we could win a PvP would be getting close to our enemy and holding our enemy down.

You've effectively killed the Astarte. You've effectively killed the Hyperion.

Good show, Gents. Good show.

By the way, you've also effectively killed Interceptors.

Smooth.

You win the internets.

I have a better idea. Nerf the people who cry for nerfs. Turn all of Eve in 0.0 and let people adapt. It'll be better.

BTW, you also kill solo-pvp with this and support more larger laggy blobbing.

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cry more, gallente blaster ships have always been overpowered compared to their counter parts (caracal, kestrel, ferox, drake, moa, merlin) gallente aren't nerfed enough.

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LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

You've got to be shitting me?

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Originally by: Korinn

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Originally by: Call'Da Poleece

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The problem is: you very very rarely come across a single nano***, there is always a big gang and that huginn dies fast. In fact on one memorable occasion we had a Pathetic Legion nano*** gang of 60+ zooming around our system... tell me what gang makeup would be capable of killing 20% of them? answer, another nano gang.

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PANSPLOITER LEGION MUTHA****AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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Originally by: Cutesmile

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Edited by: Cutesmile on 29/07/2008 14:35:38
Test on Sisi
Plated thorax accelerate 0 to 1200m/s 23sec with two speed implants MY-2 and Zor

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Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin

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Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51
this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:


A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM!
a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.

not one step backwards comrades.

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seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?

OH wait I know!
you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.

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Originally by: Reiaandra Ilin

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Edited by: Reiaandra Ilin on 01/08/2008 01:12:51
this all comes down to the same damn thing you all have been complaining about and not listening to for forever:


A retreat for the enemy is a loss. FOR THEM!
a kill when defending is only icing on the cake. In war, a retreat is as good as a kill because men can always be replaced. Lost ground cannot.

not one step backwards comrades.

___

seriously, you all need to learn this. The option for escape just means that they leave and live but you didn't die. So what is the big deal?

OH wait I know!
you want your icon to be all blinky and have a kill mail to orgasm about.

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Originally by: Luckyduck

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Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.

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Originally by: Luckyduck

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Maybe sure it could use a tweak, but honestly, if I see vagas get much higher than 5km/s and any other hac beyond 2200m/s (3km with snakes), it's just not gonna be enough. Hacs were ment to be harder tanked, heavier hitting ships... hense the "heavy assault ship" title. Recons were ment to be ECCM ships. Neither were ment to be interceptors.

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Originally by: L Cross

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Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28
With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.

And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.

CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.

Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.

IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.

Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!

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Originally by: L Cross

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Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28
With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.

And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.

CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.

Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.

IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.

Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!

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Originally by: Dracorimus

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Originally by: L Cross

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Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28
With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.

And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.

CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.

Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.

IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.

Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!

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Dude seriously, I kill interceptors now already with my hac just fine, not webbed em either, scorch M loaded, tracking enhancer II, instant dead ceptors........

Dont believe me ?

Here: Ceptor 1
Here: Ceptor 2
Here: Ceptor 3

Omg I must be awesome ...... hmm

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Originally by: Dracorimus

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Originally by: L Cross

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Edited by: L Cross on 04/08/2008 13:04:28
With the proposed changes the scram becomes an instant "you have no mwd buttton" and that we already have a module that does this ITS CALLED AN ENERGY NEUT.

And does anyone realise with the proposed changes any intercepter will be able to hold down a hac and have potential imunity? As webs will only be 50% effective the intercepter will just orbit at 10kms and the hac cant do shit.

CCP need to realise we already have counters to nano ships, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUFF THE COUNTERS instead of trying to implement a dozen changes that will effect every ship in the game.

Does CCP realise that HACs are only viable in pvp because of their speed. They are unisurable why would i tank a ishtar and spend 150 mil when i can get a domy and only have the pay 20mil after insurance.

IF these changes go thru hac will not be used in pvp at all because a single intercepter will kill them.

Well welcome to battleships and capitals online!!!

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Dude seriously, I kill interceptors now already with my hac just fine, not webbed em either, scorch M loaded, tracking enhancer II, instant dead ceptors........

Dont believe me ?

Here: Ceptor 1
Here: Ceptor 2
Here: Ceptor 3

Omg I must be awesome ...... hmm

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Originally by: Doctor Mabuse

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Hmm, lets see...

Gallente recons - no longer useless
Assault frigates now have a role
Short range, small ship tactics now viable
Missile ships now have a greater pvp role
Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web

All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.

Downside?

Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently

All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?

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Originally by: Doctor Mabuse

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Hmm, lets see...

Gallente recons - no longer useless
Assault frigates now have a role
Short range, small ship tactics now viable
Missile ships now have a greater pvp role
Many different combinations of mid slot mods are now viable instead of the boring mwd/point/web

All in all many different options and ship types now useful for pvp.

Downside?

Some Vaga and Ishtar pilots need to learn to fly differently

All these new options and you think its a nerf? Really?

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