| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Heliosium
   |
Posted - 2008.07.26 02:33:00 -
[1]
I suspect that players flip cans for two main reasons: steal the contents, and provoke miners into starting a fight. My question is basically: is it possible to destroy your own can before they flip it? Keep the can targeted, and keep a laser or drone free to destroy the can as soon as you see someone heading towards your can. Of course when this happens you are already aligned to warp, and as soon as the can is destroyed, dock someplace.
I mean, I really don't care as much about losing the minerals so much as annoying the pirate by denying them their main resource in this particular situation to manipulate me. Think of it as a sort of Israeli-style no-negotiation type of situation. No can means no stealing AND no provocation--in high sec space where I mine, at least.
Sure I lose some time for the mining I did (half an hour at the most, usually... ooooh darn...), but I figure that if they get their jollies off of picking fights & upsetting people, then why can't I get some jollies off of knowing that I postponed their plans to try to enjoy EVE at my expense?
Soooo... Can I destroy my own cans, or not?
Oh, and with this type of attitude, try to ransom me... See what happens. After all, its just a game ;p
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 02:41:00 -
[2]
Depending on what you ore per cycle amount is, giant secure cans might be a good idea.
You can pop your own cans, but a mining ship with drones isn't going to be quite fast enough usually to do it.
|
Fla'Nor
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 03:03:00 -
[3]
My mining Dominix disagrees! Ogres do the job nicely :)
|
Regsamjor
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 03:45:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Regsamjor on 26/07/2008 03:50:27
It strikes me strangely that destroying one's own can give one "jollies".. Don't let emotions cost you ISK, it's actually a minor victory for the flipper when you cap your can..
Here's an idea I employ & have read from other posters recently as well;
Gain a 2nd account & design a character (Minmatar) to fly a Mammoth that trails your miner as the jet cans squirt out the back.. When you jet your first can after a cycle, put in "something useless" (a few rounds of ammo?) and size-small in the can as well.. Keep stationary & mine.
Keep transferring ore from your miner into the jet can & then put the ore into your Mammoth. If a flipper comes by, all that should be in your jet can is "something useless" since you have NOT been leaving ore in your jet can. If the flipper approaches, pull back the "something useless" into your miner & your jet can implodes. As you move from rock to rock, repeat the jet can system.
This seems less complicated than trying to destroy any can and the GSC suggestion in the above post is another solution..
Why Minmatar for your hauler? As you progress in the game, you will want to start killing others out of pure joy & a well-designed Minmatar Char is an excellent platform to design a PvPr.
Work smarter; not harder.
Can flippers that see you do that will normally find someone else that is easier to torment..
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:08:00 -
[5]
Many recommend amarr for hauler alts. The bestower has a very high starting cargo, and it gets a bit better in time (13k m3 at industrial 1 with cargo expander IIS max is around 15km3 ; though the mammoth or interon will beat it in time.)
Depends on what you want to do in the long term with the second account.
When I was still in frigate/cruisers I would find a nice system. Pick one of the least used belts (no cans) and set up a chain of GSCs about 6k from each other all down the belt... I'd fill one and move to the next till they were all full.
Then a couple trips with the industrial to get the ore.
Worked extremely well till I was into the barges, and even then it's semi-doable with the retriever and maybe the covetor. When you get the hulk, you can slap a couple T1 cargo rigs and cargo hold expander IIs on it. Fill it with GSCs (jet and anchor one of them to open cargo space) and hold mine away.
|
Pan Dora
Caldari
Bears Inc
Violent-Tendencies
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 04:40:00 -
[6]
The huge advantage of the amarr its that it take less than 1 hour to be able to fly bestower with cargo expander II. A mammoth wold take a week or so, Itheron V a mounth.
My posts DOES reflect the view of my corp and ally...
..or a mistake they did when let me post. |
Heliosium
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 06:06:00 -
[7]
yeah... I was thinking about creating another account, but I'm not sure if I am coordinated enough to protect both of them at the same time, heh... especially if a real pirate comes along & decides to hassle them both (risking two ships at that point). I think the absolute best dvice would be to simply employ this tactic with a trusted corp-mate, OOOR better yet, turn on a real life friend to EVE & stick together.
Meh, whatever happens will happen, and fortunately I have not been flipped, yet (not been playing long, actually). I'm sure it will happen eventually, and I think that the most likely sequence of events will be that I get the can flipped, grumble to myself, and start a friendly convo with the flipper (heh, happened before with real pirates who popped my pod). I'm surprised at how nice these people are, considering what they do, heh.
Not that I am rushing to their defense, but maybe pirates are just regular, friendly players who are so jaded with EVE that this is the only thing they can do to have fun. Intelligent conversation just MIGHT be a refreshing break from the inane banter in local or corp chat. MAYBE as refreshing as a real fight.
Heh, or maybe I am really reaching, and pirates just like to jump on, and see how many people they can upset and fight as fast as possible. Maybe we should just feel bad for them... I hate being bored. It must really be tough...
Come on, little pirates & can-flippers... Its okay... yeah, there ya go, its going to be aaalright, don't you worry about a thing. What's wrong, little buddy? Are ya bored? Let's talk. I'll help you relieve the boredom for a little while... Everything's gonna just fine. Shhhhh, don't be scared; it'll be okay. What are you upset about little frigate? Tell me all about it. Don't worry because I'm bored, too... of mining. We can just talk. I usually charge by the hour, but I'll give you this first session, free!
|
Joe Starbreaker
AnTi.
Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 07:11:00 -
[8]
You can pop your own cans but it seems kind of silly, and if the can flippers are the worst kind (the ones doing it for pleasure instead of business) they'll probably enjoy seeing it. All you're really doing is denying the income to those pitiful souls desperate enough to have to find sustenance from others' rubbish. Since it's only trash to you (you jettisoned it) I say let them have it.
|
Heliosium
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 07:16:00 -
[9]
And of course, that will be the first thing they point out in local ("why did you pop your own can, noob?"), but I'm sure we all know better...
|
Tzar'rim
|
Posted - 2008.07.26 08:16:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 26/07/2008 08:19:23
Tbh it's not a good strategy because (at least in my case) flippers don't give a damn about the ore itself, what you DO show them is the "nothing to get here, **** off!" message so that might work because the flipper will go elsewhere. Thing is ofcourse that you still lost your ore and if it's a persistent flipper like me (I take my time) he'll come back 15 minutes later after doing his round (depending on your mining speed/ship) and approach you again to either 'force' you to destroy it again or be stolen from.
The better solution is to not get caught with your pants down in the first place, don't mine solo and think up strategies that make it highly unlikely your cans can be flipped. There's a number of options and they do not neccesarily involve secure cans.
If you DO want to do it then 'prime' your cans, that means use 1 drone (in your case) to soften up the can so it's on low HP needing just a little nudge to be destroyed, then start mining and if you feel you need to destroy the can it just takes a second from your drones to do so.
|
Oweim
Gallente
Sephray Industries
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 01:45:00 -
[11]
I will only jetcan mine inside mission pockets (deadspace) right now 
|
Toshiro GreyHawk
|
Posted - 2008.07.27 03:17:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 27/07/2008 03:25:28
A few comments;
1) It would absolutely be worth while to deny the can flipper the ore. He's playing the game but so are you. If you can't protect it - then deny it to him. Good point about prepping the can. Of course ... to deny persistent can flippers - don't be in that particular belt when he comes back. In fact - if you are solo jet canning - don't be anywhere there is any sort of traffic in the first place.
2) It is better though to keep the ore yourself. Here - as mentioned - team up with a buddy or an alt and team mine. THIS is the way to really do it and not just because of can flippers. There is no comparison between team mining and solo mining for hauling in the ore. If you've got a Hulk ... then you have a big enough cargo hold to BE your own hauler - but - why stop your lasers to haul it back if the hauler can do it for you? Now ... if you've got all your mining crew in Hulks ... then that's a good reason. But spending time hauling is a good use for a mission running alt when he's not running missions for you. If you mine in .8 and below, put a tractor beam and salvager on the hauler so he can salvage the rats your barge's drones kill.
3) The "useless" item I use to keep the can open is a book mark.
4) Any number of times - I've had some guy make a run at my can. I pull the book mark and pop the can in his face - but don't trash talk him - and he leaves to go pick on someone else. We were playing the game - and I just beat him. No need to rub it in - I know it and he knows it. Trash talk him - and he just might decide he's been insulted enough to war dec you.
5) In any case can flippers are usually only after the fight. If they flip your can and you just let them have it and go off somewhere - they may not even take your ore. Of course another tactic they use is to leave wrecks and cans laying about hoping someone will steal from THEM so they can blow them up. So watch out for that side of it too.
6) Make at least two tabs for your over view. One with the asteroids in it and one without. Only have the view with the asteroids in it open long enough to target a new set of asteroids then go to the view without the asteroids cluttering it up so you can see it as soon as anyone else comes into your belt. Do a look at them, move your POV around to the stern of their ship and see where they are headed. Watch their distance from you. If they start closing the distance on you - and your Look from their stern POV shows them headed for your can - then do what you've got to do. Better by far here to be pulling a book mark on an empty can than blowing up ore that could be safely inside the hold of your hauler.
7) It is actually better in a lot of ways to have your own alt account do the hauling. He's always there and always willing to do it.
|
Daemeon Fyral
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 04:52:00 -
[13]
yeah i had my first experience with can flippers just the other day, and i'll admit he ****ed me off, i had about 2 hours worth of mining in that can. wound up loosing two ships because of my temper and him being a better pvper. but, there was a small victory in it for me, since he taught me a valuable lesson and gave me the push i needed to pick up a hoarder, came back and was able to recover about half of my ore while he was jetting back and forth to unload his ill-gotten goods
|
Gregor Vernof
Minmatar
Toddlers Throwing Tantrums
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 05:38:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Gregor Vernof on 28/07/2008 05:42:14
Edited by: Gregor Vernof on 28/07/2008 05:40:52
Edited by: Gregor Vernof on 28/07/2008 05:38:21
Your welcome Daemeon Fyral. Glad to see you saw that as the educational experience it always should be. Trust me, there are lessons to be learned every time you log in, especially for those of us playing on the far side of the law. As they say, there is always someone bigger, better, and meaner than you just around the next Asteroid Belt.
From this "can-flippers" perspective it isn't about griefing or ruining the other players game play. Sure there are many that are in it just for the kicks and the kill stats, but I'd hazard a guess that there are many of us who have decided that thievery, pirating, and other less "legal" activities are going to be the "role" we set our characters. I personally have set myself with the goal of actually scrapping out a meager "living" from the ore I can steal, modules and dropped items i can grab from your wreak, and even the salvage from it. Call it roleplay, call it whatever you like, it's just another side of the huge sandbox that is EVE.
There as been some very good advice in how to counter "can-flippers," Mining with an Alt Hauler being probably one of the best for high-sec (A tactic I have long employed with my "Mains"). Do what works for you and your means, playstyle, and play-time.
Now a word of caution to all "Can-Flippers" out there: CCP has designated the 12 racial starting areas as off-limits to any activity that could get a new player to criminally tag themselves to you so you can kill them. Likewise, just stealing from their can outright without flipping it thereby tagging you to them in the hopes that they will attack you so you can kill them is also prohibited. And lastly targeting a new player as they leave the starting areas station in the hopes that they will panic and fire on you thereby invoking CONCORD to kill them is also officially considered Griefing. I have had this comfirned in mail, conversations, and petitions with CCP GMs and ISD individuals.
I operate outside of these "starting systems" now. It's not worth the possible problems trying to figure out how stealing/attacking an established player in those areas might possibly get a new player into trouble. And honestly I have taken to actually convo'ing new players of less thana couple of days if they are in the racial starter ships and warning them that "stealing" from one of my cans they are eyeballing while I'm around the location (geez, some just don't get it though....).
Edit: damn it next time I need to use the "previiew" option before posting, there that should be easier to read....
|
Mara Rinn
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 06:35:00 -
[15]
My anti-can-flipper mechanism was described earlier: bookmark the first asteroid you come across, drag the bookmark to your hold, then jettison the bookmark. The hauler drags ore out of this can as soon as the miner dumps it.
Keep the can open, so if someone flips it you don't go accidentally pulling stuff out of their can.
|
Shanur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 07:35:00 -
[16]
Mining in mission areas is the best advice i can give. Can flippers hardly ever take the trouble to probe down missioners. The thieves that do, tend to be after salvage and aren't usually equiped well to take advantage of can flipping instead (salvage thieves prefer fast frigates with 1 or 2 salvagers equiped and rely entirely on making a quick getaway for defense).
Second is using a hauler buddy (or alt, although i'd prefer the cooperative solution as this is supposed to be a multiplayer game after all) to make constant runs while you keep the can open with a bookmark. That way, the most ore a flipper can steal would be a few cycles worth. And shrugging off his attempts to bait you by completely ignoring his flipped can is likely to frustrate him into going somewhere else (any thief that flips the can rather than just nab the ore and make off with it is indeed after agressing you and doesn't care much about the ore itself other than as a resource you are after that he can deny you).
|
Sannah Ur
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 08:29:00 -
[17]
 Originally by: Shanur
Second is using a hauler buddy (or alt, although i'd prefer the cooperative solution as this is supposed to be a multiplayer game after all) to make constant runs while you keep the can open with a bookmark. That way, the most ore a flipper can steal would be a few cycles worth. And shrugging off his attempts to bait you by completely ignoring his flipped can is likely to frustrate him into going somewhere else (any thief that flips the can rather than just nab the ore and make off with it is indeed after agressing you and doesn't care much about the ore itself other than as a resource you are after that he can deny you).
Yup, that's what I do nowadays. I started a hauler alt (can now fly Iteron III's but I'm training her to V's) that drags the ore to the hold and takes off with it. So at most I lose 2000m3 of veldspar which takes me 3 minutes in my retriever anyway. Before I had that alt, I got really nervous each time someone warped into the belt I was mining in. Not that I ever had someone steal from me of flip a can, but still.
|
Gealbhan
Caldari
Infernal Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 10:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Heliosium
steal the contents, and provoke miners into starting a fight.
This.
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar
AA Mining
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sannah Ur
Originally by: Shanur
Second is using a hauler buddy (or alt, although i'd prefer the cooperative solution as this is supposed to be a multiplayer game after all) to make constant runs while you keep the can open with a bookmark. That way, the most ore a flipper can steal would be a few cycles worth. And shrugging off his attempts to bait you by completely ignoring his flipped can is likely to frustrate him into going somewhere else (any thief that flips the can rather than just nab the ore and make off with it is indeed after agressing you and doesn't care much about the ore itself other than as a resource you are after that he can deny you).
Yup, that's what I do nowadays. I started a hauler alt (can now fly Iteron III's but I'm training her to V's) that drags the ore to the hold and takes off with it. So at most I lose 2000m3 of veldspar which takes me 3 minutes in my retriever anyway. Before I had that alt, I got really nervous each time someone warped into the belt I was mining in. Not that I ever had someone steal from me of flip a can, but still.
I wind up using the GSCs for transfers. Nothing like getting can flipper whinging about it in local, especially when you go "Dude, it's a GSC not a jet can... you can't flip our transfer can"
And then I make sure I'm on 500m orbit of said can with my miner. Some try to bump ya.
|
ManofFace
Caldari
K.O.R.
Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:30:00 -
[20]
Kind of off-topic but still related partially to cans.
I always found it amusing to MWD macros away from their jet cans in a battleship. Always funny to watch them limp back each time, screw up their scripts too :)
Or you can do the ol' switcharoo which is fun too.
-
To err is human,
to get caught is just plain stupid.
-Anonymous |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |