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Is the rapier/muhin now gonna be useless?

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CommmanderInChief	Posted - 2008.07.27 11:58:00 - [1] I guess the anti nano ship is not going to be much use anymore, i think CCP doing this nerf (which I agree something needed to be done) will now kill of HACS and some recons rapier/muhin even curse perhaps..
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.27 12:01:00 - [2] actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower.
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.27 12:06:00 - [3] Originally by: Stab Wounds actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower. I'm using my 50% webs on my rapier yeah. The rapier has taken a huge nerf. Before, it could web down to 1% of previous speed. After nerf it's webbing down to 25% of previous speed. This is the equivelant of equipping 1x stasis webifier I and going out with your rapier, atleast nearly. You cannot fit 3 webs without sacrificing tank/mobility.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.27 12:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Euriti Originally by: Stab Wounds actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower. I'm using my 50% webs on my rapier yeah. The rapier has taken a huge nerf. Before, it could web down to 1% of previous speed. After nerf it's webbing down to 25% of previous speed. This is the equivelant of equipping 1x stasis webifier I and going out with your rapier, atleast nearly. You cannot fit 3 webs without sacrificing tank/mobility. How many ships are going to be 4x faster than a rapier with a T2 MWD? I'm guessing virtually none. You can easily web them;; they can't web you. You dictate range and speed. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.27 12:28:00 - [5] The MWD delay will make them very powerful in gate camps I suspect. People already fit them to be fairly fast so even if you can only slow them down to 25%, the rapier/huggin is still going to be a whole lot faster and his MWD will have been idling so no delay for him.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.07.27 12:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Euriti Originally by: Stab Wounds actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower. I'm using my 50% webs on my rapier yeah. The rapier has taken a huge nerf. Before, it could web down to 1% of previous speed. After nerf it's webbing down to 25% of previous speed. This is the equivelant of equipping 1x stasis webifier I and going out with your rapier, atleast nearly. You cannot fit 3 webs without sacrificing tank/mobility. How many ships are going to be 4x faster than a rapier with a T2 MWD? I'm guessing virtually none. You can easily web them;; they can't web you. You dictate range and speed. This. I thought it would be obvious to any moron, but appearantly it's obvious to all morons except the queen moron: Euriti. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
ApaKaka Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.07.27 12:31:00 - [7] Standard Inty doing 4k after patch. Rapier webs it with one web: it does 2k Rapier webs it with two webs: it does about 1.5k due to stacking penalty of webs. So, yeah, it's useless after patch. The inty will just coast out of webrange, and the rapier will have no sort of tracking to pop it.
Bo Bojangles Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.07.27 13:02:00 - [8] I'll still fly a Muninn probably but I don't know about the Rapier/Huginn. There's just no HP on them in the first place, and when you take away that speed, well I'm imagining they're just not going to survive even those not so large camps, with the Rapi getting decloaked all the time. Pretty expensive ship to fly around with no survivability.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.27 13:05:00 - [9] Nothing changes. . .faster ships will still go faster, slower ships will go slower and webs will still be great. ---- GO BLUE!!
Broegitte Bardot BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 13:05:00 - [10] i bet T2 will have 60%..... alt of Roemy Schneider (probably lacking game time again)
chromez0r Gallente Dead 2 Rights	Posted - 2008.07.27 13:16:00 - [11] Current situation: rapier within scraming range = dead as they would be webbed after patch: rapier within scraming range = dead as they wont have the mwd and will be webbed. either way if you're within scraming range you'd be screwed unless the target was made of fail >_>
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.27 13:48:00 - [12] Triple-painter Rapiers rolling along with missile-pukers. Better nerf painters too. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Tashiell Gao Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.07.27 13:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Euriti Originally by: Stab Wounds actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower. I'm using my 50% webs on my rapier yeah. The rapier has taken a huge nerf. Before, it could web down to 1% of previous speed. After nerf it's webbing down to 25% of previous speed. This is the equivelant of equipping 1x stasis webifier I and going out with your rapier, atleast nearly. You cannot fit 3 webs without sacrificing tank/mobility. How many ships are going to be 4x faster than a rapier with a T2 MWD? I'm guessing virtually none. You can easily web them;; they can't web you. You dictate range and speed. Before the "in-disscussion" nerf: Why do you use Rapier? -to slow down fast ships by a vast scale so that they could be hit. After seeing your post: Why do you use your rapier? -So that i can run away not losing my little ship. Tashiell Gao, Minmatar Inside.
El Mauru Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:14:00 - [14] Only thing about rapiers is that they won't be able to speedtank as well anymore- people will still fit for speed to dictate range at minimum and rapiers will still be the #1 choice to slow them down. Just no more rapier solo roaming :-P -
Selous Ooops Inc. Infinite Innovation	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis How many ships are going to be 4x faster than a rapier with a T2 MWD? I'm guessing virtually none. You can easily web them;; they can't web you. You dictate range and speed. Oh I get it now , you are introducing a rule where rapiers are only allowed to be engaged by and to engage 1 ship at a time ? damn I knew I was doing something wrong by holding multiple shps at a distance .
kessah State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:24:00 - [16] this nerf's fantastic.
Captain Falcord Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:31:00 - [17] Ermmm what nerf? I haven't been at home so I missed lots of things, can I have link please? ---<---@ JackFalcord
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Selous Originally by: Malcanis How many ships are going to be 4x faster than a rapier with a T2 MWD? I'm guessing virtually none. You can easily web them;; they can't web you. You dictate range and speed. Oh I get it now , you are introducing a rule where rapiers are only allowed to be engaged by and to engage 1 ship at a time ? damn I knew I was doing something wrong by holding multiple shps at a distance . It matches your rule whereby rapiers can only be flown solo. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Alex Ravenshaw Capital Produce Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:36:00 - [19] The vaga need not be afraid of those rapier and huginns now. woohoo!
Voicelessly	Posted - 2008.07.27 14:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Bellum Eternus This. I thought it would be obvious to any moron, but appearantly it's obvious to all morons except the queen moron: Euriti. hugs
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Alex Ravenshaw The vaga need not be afraid of those rapier and huginns now. woohoo! Keep thinking that. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.07.27 15:14:00 - [22] Originally by: Captain Falcord Ermmm what nerf? I haven't been at home so I missed lots of things, can I have link please? Check the latest dev blog: "Speed rebalanced" in Eve Info Portal. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Xiamar	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:09:00 - [23] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Originally by: Alex Ravenshaw The vaga need not be afraid of those rapier and huginns now. woohoo! Keep thinking that. He's right. Vaga will still be very fast 50% web wont slow it down much, can out damage a huginn....dead huginn.
Wasted Mind Gallente Syntech Research and Development Lords of the Damned	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:12:00 - [24] Funny how all these ships worked fine before anyone even knew what a nano was and yet now they are suddenly doomed?
Aria Seniste	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:13:00 - [25] The webs start at 50%, scaling up to 60%, according to the blog. Too lazy to redo the math, iirc it evens out to an 85% reduction in speed. This, combined with the overall, ACROSS THE BOARD speed reduction.. will make a difference. You're not slowing them down as much, but they're not as fast to begin with. You have to look at the big picture of the patch, not just one detail.
Aenis Veros Caldari Alphaflight	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:16:00 - [26] Edited by: Aenis Veros on 27/07/2008 16:17:18 Originally by: Wasted Mind Funny how all these ships worked fine before anyone even knew what a nano was and yet now they are suddenly doomed? Perhaps it was because they used to stop people from getting back to the gate and jump through? Or perhaps because they were able to make a ship slow down to a halt and be possible to track/kill? Now you need a blob of webs to do that and all the big alliances will rejoice.
Amrann	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Stab Wounds actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower. That is ridiculous. A little math will show why: Assuming an engagement range of 15 KM against a MWD-ing target, a Rapier using 2 60% webs and a 24 KM disruptor will be able to reduce an enemy's velocity by approximately 80% (first web drops speed to 40%, second to 16%) and prevent them from warping to safety. This takes 3 medium slots. A Lachensis in the same engagement envelope with a single T2 warp scrambler will reduce the enemy's velocity by 80% (assuming that post-nerf, T2 MWDs give a 500% speed bonus; the actual value will be larger than this and this also fails to account for skills, so the actual decrease will be closer to 90%) and will likewise prevent them from warping, using A SINGLE MEDIUM SLOT. It is now better than the Rapier at the Rapier's job. Now, assume the target involved is a post-nerf, 8KM/second interceptor. It can orbit the Rapier at a rate of 8000m/s 0.16 = 1280 m/s. At 15KM this is equivalent to 0.085 radians/second- easily fast enough to avoid the recon's main battery of artillery (3 turret slots and only 1 missile slot). If it can manage to close the range, this gets nothing but worse. Assuming the Rapier can dictate range (and anyone with a brain will have a setup faster than 1300 M/s) and moves to the extreme of its disruptor range, the resulting orbital velocity becomes approximately 0.05 radians per second- still safely above the tracking speed of T2 720s. Pack Warrior IIs and pray. Contrast this with the current enviroment- A 12 KM/s per-nerf 'ceptor, when double-90% webbed, Has its speed dropped to 120 M/s... a veritable sitting duck for artillery at any range. If ABs actually gain a role in PvP, the Rapier/Huginn might* be a very effective counter to such ships, but overall, it seems clear that the current plans are an extremely heavy nerf to Minnie recons. Ad hominem flames are great... but please, someone refute the math here?
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Amrann Originally by: Stab Wounds actually they will be somewhat overpowered after nerf because everyone will be slower. That is ridiculous. A little math will show why: Assuming an engagement range of 15 KM against a MWD-ing target, a Rapier using 2 60% webs and a 24 KM disruptor will be able to reduce an enemy's velocity by approximately 80% (first web drops speed to 40%, second to 16%) and prevent them from warping to safety. This takes 3 medium slots. A Lachensis in the same engagement envelope with a single T2 warp scrambler will reduce the enemy's velocity by 80% (assuming that post-nerf, T2 MWDs give a 500% speed bonus; the actual value will be larger than this and this also fails to account for skills, so the actual decrease will be closer to 90%) and will likewise prevent them from warping, using A SINGLE MEDIUM SLOT. It is now better than the Rapier at the Rapier's job. Now, assume the target involved is a post-nerf, 8KM/second interceptor. It can orbit the Rapier at a rate of 8000m/s 0.16 = 1280 m/s. At 15KM this is equivalent to 0.085 radians/second- easily fast enough to avoid the recon's main battery of artillery (3 turret slots and only 1 missile slot). If it can manage to close the range, this gets nothing but worse. Assuming the Rapier can dictate range (and anyone with a brain will have a setup faster than 1300 M/s) and moves to the extreme of its disruptor range, the resulting orbital velocity becomes approximately 0.05 radians per second- still safely above the tracking speed of T2 720s. Pack Warrior IIs and pray. Contrast this with the current enviroment- A 12 KM/s per-nerf 'ceptor, when double-90% webbed, Has its speed dropped to 120 M/s... a veritable sitting duck for artillery at any range. If ABs actually gain a role in PvP, the Rapier/Huginn might* be a very effective counter to such ships, but overall, it seems clear that the current plans are an extremely heavy nerf to Minnie recons. Ad hominem flames are great... but please, someone refute the math here? Rapier will have better range. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.07.27 16:33:00 - [29] Originally by: ApaKaka Standard Inty doing 4k after patch. Rapier webs it with one web: it does 2k Rapier webs it with two webs: it does about 1.5k due to stacking penalty of webs. So, yeah, it's useless after patch. The inty will just coast out of webrange, and the rapier will have no sort of tracking to pop it. way to ignore the fact that the rapier will be going 2000m/s with an afterburner.

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