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CSM show your worth (wrt to nano nerf)

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Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.07.28 04:01:00 - [1] Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 04:03:21 Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 04:03:05 Latest dev blog... augh my god. Nozh makes Zulupark look good. The current comments thread is at NINETY SEVEN pages after three days. The AGAINST thread in Assembly Hall is at 30 pages. Represent the community opinion. In most reasonable and knowledgeable people's opinions, the only needed nerfs are bringing polycarbons in line with the other rigs or the module equivalents. And perhaps some minor weakening of pirate implants or skirmish links. In any case, even if more substantial changes are thought to be required by CCP, this is totally the wrong way to do them. Make small changes then assess their impact. Changing so much at once is a total nightmare for balance, and is asking for truly legendary bugs to be ironed out. The proposed changes in their current form will: Completely screw over Minmatar Heavily damage Gallente blaster boats (can't get or stay in range) Massively indirectly boost Caldari missile boats as their missiles will hit almost everything. And finally leave Amarr largely unaffected in their bugged Locus-rigged battleships destroying everything within sight. The game will turn into who has the largest blob, with ECM as the one remaining wildcard. Sub BS T2 ships will become largely usless. Please get on at anyone in CCP that you can to DRASTICALLY scale back or scrap these changes. We (the real pvpers) will love you forever. You will be the JFK of Eve. :D
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.07.28 04:01:00 - [2] Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 04:05:38 Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 04:03:21 Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 28/07/2008 04:03:05 Latest dev blog... augh my god. Nozh makes Zulupark look good. The current comments thread is at NINETY SEVEN pages after three days. The AGAINST thread in Assembly Hall is at 30 pages. Represent the community opinion. In most reasonable and knowledgeable people's opinions, the only needed nerfs are bringing polycarbons in line with the other rigs or the module equivalents. And perhaps some minor weakening of pirate implants or skirmish links. In any case, even if more substantial changes are thought to be required by CCP, this is totally the wrong way to do them. Make small changes then assess their impact. Changing so much at once is a total nightmare for balance, and is asking for truly legendary bugs. The proposed changes in their current form will: Completely screw over Minmatar Heavily damage Gallente blaster boats (can't get or stay in range) Massively indirectly boost Caldari missile boats as their missiles will hit almost everything. And finally leave Amarr largely unaffected in their bugged Locus-rigged battleships destroying everything within sight. The game will turn into who has the largest blob, with ECM as the one remaining wildcard. Sub BS T2 ships will become largely usless. Please get on at anyone in CCP that you can to DRASTICALLY scale back or scrap these changes. We (the real pvpers) will love you forever. You will be the JFK of Eve. :D
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.28 09:43:00 - [3] The latest CSM meeting on August 3 has this as no.1 to meet/discuss about. Go look. Also, redundant post. 5 mins of looking at page 2 and 3 for it would have sufficed. Heck, its still on page 1. -
Shinoon Aqerha	Posted - 2008.07.28 11:21:00 - [4] Sorry madam please add reasons to your assertions of consequence. You ain't a prophet.
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.07.28 12:19:00 - [5] Alright. I was venting a bit. I have made several posts in the devblog discussion thread about why the changes are overdone.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:28:00 - [6] I don't believe what the devs decide to test on the test server should be open to the Senate's issue list. Especially when: *Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.* Is the very first sentence in the dev-blog. I think jade is just going to further embarrass himself when he brings up the subject with CCP, and CCP's response is: *Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience.*
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.07.28 21:39:00 - [7] Good thing there is a 110-page thread of players input categorically stating DO NOT WANT then isn't there.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.07.28 22:26:00 - [8] No that thread isn't feedback, cause most of those posts were posted before the changes went to sisi. And "against" isn't useful feedback. CCP will be looking at this thread for usable feedback, as they should. The speed rebalance has many different things rolled into it. -Ship class speed adjustment, which is mostly a universal frigate speed/mass/agility buff, and some cruiser and above speed nerf. -General speed/mass/agility module nerf, to slow down max speeds universally. -Mixing up tactics with the retinkering of Webbers, Scramblers, MWDs, and ABs. If you think for a second that ALL of this will be scrapped, well I think you'd be mistaken. If you think the CSM is going to provide ccp with anything more useful than the info that is already being given by sisi testers, then I think you are mistaken. Jade intends to use the thread he linked as evidence that 0.0 sov should be fixed before speed is addressed, which from what I've seen, very few people share that concern. For most eve players, things like speed tanks and DDDs are much more important than POS shot mechanics. Especially now with FW, more and more players are getting into pvp, and FW doesn't even involve the same type of sov, but speed tanks and un-trackable nano-tanking ARE major concerns.
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.07.30 21:02:00 - [9] 35 pages of DO NOT WANT there. You have no idea what you are talking about. Just stop typing.
Eleanor DeAquitaine	Posted - 2008.07.31 03:20:00 - [10] And the worst thing is that no one really wanted to destroy speed and nanos, they want the ability, if they fit for it, to counter it without nanoing themselves... Such as by fixing webifiers... There needs to be a long range but much lower speed reduction webifier... Instead, amongst the changes is a 50% nerf to web strength with NO increase in range! Stupid. Very stupid. Did I mention the proposal is stupid?
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.31 04:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Eleanor DeAquitaine And the worst thing is that no one really wanted to destroy speed and nanos, they want the ability, if they fit for it, to counter it without nanoing themselves... Such as by fixing webifiers... There needs to be a long range but much lower speed reduction webifier... Instead, amongst the changes is a 50% nerf to web strength with NO increase in range! Stupid. Very stupid. Did I mention the proposal is stupid? I said this in your other thread Eleanor. The speed nerf is not final. They put alot of changes on the test server to see which ones worked and which ones break the game. This will be a multi-step process don't shit yourself.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.07.31 16:33:00 - [12] The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.07.31 17:09:00 - [13] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 31/07/2008 17:09:37 Originally by: Verone The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. Yet people keep bugging us ingame about it . I can't count the amount of convoes I have gotten, because of it. And people are always disappointed in my answer EDIT: And oh, very few people actually seemed to actually read the very first line of the dev-blog.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.31 17:46:00 - [14] Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 31/07/2008 17:09:37 Originally by: Verone The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. Yet people keep bugging us ingame about it . I can't count the amount of convoes I have gotten, because of it. And people are always disappointed in my answer EDIT: And oh, very few people actually seemed to actually read the very first line of the dev-blog. I guess bright yellow wasn't good enough. Next time they should try red or something. Maybe a rainbow - that would get people's attention.
Aypse Aypse's Holiday	Posted - 2008.08.02 14:31:00 - [15] Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 31/07/2008 17:09:37 Originally by: Verone The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. Yet people keep bugging us ingame about it . I can't count the amount of convoes I have gotten, because of it. And people are always disappointed in my answer EDIT: And oh, very few people actually seemed to actually read the very first line of the dev-blog. Actually, you seem to be the one who has failed to read the first line. It says that its subject to change according to player input. If players are contacting the CSM to voice their input.....seems to me that they have a clear understanding of what the first line says. The CSM's objective is to represent the players concerns, as you well know, and therefore they have every right to expect you to listen to their concerns. In fact, if you are simply ignoring their concerns in favor of your own priorities, it is you that is not living up to expectations of being a CSM and not them that is misusing the CSM. Reducing the mechanics that reward blobbing: Eve-O Forum Link
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.02 14:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Aypse Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 31/07/2008 17:09:37 Originally by: Verone The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. Yet people keep bugging us ingame about it . I can't count the amount of convoes I have gotten, because of it. And people are always disappointed in my answer EDIT: And oh, very few people actually seemed to actually read the very first line of the dev-blog. Actually, you seem to be the one who has failed to read the first line. It says that its subject to change according to player input. If players are contacting the CSM to voice their input.....seems to me that they have a clear understanding of what the first line says. The CSM's objective is to represent the players concerns, as you well know, and therefore they have every right to expect you to listen to their concerns. In fact, if you are simply ignoring their concerns in favor of your own priorities, it is you that is not living up to expectations of being a CSM and not them that is misusing the CSM. Truth. And its why we made the speed issue number 1 agenda item on sunday. There is very significant player sentiment that the nano-nerf is too much, and would badly damage the 0.0 game at the moment by promoting blobbing and removing a counter. We need to be discussing this and using any influence we do have to ensure the speed-changes are more reasonable and appropriate buffs to guerilla warfare are made at the same time the overall speed penalty comes in. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.03 01:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Jade Constantine Truth. And its why we made the speed issue number 1 agenda item on sunday. There is very significant player sentiment that the nano-nerf is too much, and would badly damage the 0.0 game at the moment by promoting blobbing and removing a counter. We need to be discussing this and using any influence we do have to ensure the speed-changes are more reasonable and appropriate buffs to guerilla warfare are made at the same time the overall speed penalty comes in. I am not going to reiterate too much of the post that I made above. So I'm just going to say that to me, it seems that only the polycarbs need reining in, and a few stacking penalties added or adjusted. The implants should be left alone. Why? Because it's not the fits or rigs that are the real problem. The Microwarps are. Take away the MWDs' enormous speed factor, and/or try to sync up ship tracking and missile speeds and explosion velocities. Certain Frigates and Interceptors should be able to outrun standard missiles, a few Cruisers be able to outrun cruise missiles, etcetera. But the extremes of speed that are right now need to be cut, clipped and balanced out.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:15:00 - [18] Originally by: LaVista Vista And oh, very few people actually seemed to actually read the very first line of the dev-blog. Of course we read it. It's subject to change based on player input. Why do you think players are doing so much inputting? ------------------ Fix the forums!
Moku'Jihn	Posted - 2008.08.04 14:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Verone The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. You tell people to adapt, but refuse to do so your self. If you want people to adapt, you must be ready to do so yourself. EvE will always change for better and worse.
Mavi Gioia	Posted - 2008.08.04 17:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Moku'Jihn Originally by: Verone The CSM are showing their worth. Hopefully they'll continue to do so and ignore the babies who'd rather whine and cry than adapt to the game's changes. You tell people to adapt, but refuse to do so your self. If you want people to adapt, you must be ready to do so yourself. EvE will always change for better and worse. Exactly. To borrow from Pattern, "Should you be able to catch that, which you are unable to trap or unwilling to outmanoeuvre?" Game is getting nerfed down to your level, rather than you stepping up.
Andartha	Posted - 2008.08.06 00:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Jade Constantine Truth. And its why we made the speed issue number 1 agenda item on sunday. There is very significant player sentiment that the nano-nerf is too much, and would badly damage the 0.0 game at the moment by promoting blobbing and removing a counter. We need to be discussing this and using any influence we do have to ensure the speed-changes are more reasonable and appropriate buffs to guerilla warfare are made at the same time the overall speed penalty comes in. The CSM voted against the nano nerf on Sunday. My understanding was that once you voted against an issue, you didn't bring it up again?
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.08.06 00:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Andartha The CSM voted against the nano nerf on Sunday. My understanding was that once you voted against an issue, you didn't bring it up again? That WAS the CSM's understanding yes. Jade likes to try to change the rules when he doesn't get his way. Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe. -- Illaria's CSM
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.06 02:28:00 - [23] Edited by: Farrqua on 06/08/2008 02:29:23 You know if you really step back and look at what you are doing. It does not make a lot of sense. You are **ed because Nozh whacked the nano's with a Nerf sledge. I think it is a BIT heavy handed, but seriously how can you throw a logical argument at CCP when you have no f'n clue what they are actually going to change. You do not have any of their data. You do not sit in the room with them having discussions about what works or does not. Hey your not a DEV. I would not second guess a guy that likes to swing that damn nerf bat. Its like trying to do the same job twice. Don't blow it the first time around by **ing them off to the point they tell you to go get bent the next time you bring it up. The only reason I see this is getting pushed through is because this issue has high visibility and will help in the re-election process when it comes around again.
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Farrqua Edited by: Farrqua on 06/08/2008 02:29:23 You know if you really step back and look at what you are doing. It does not make a lot of sense. You are **ed because Nozh whacked the nano's with a Nerf sledge. I think it is a BIT heavy handed, but seriously how can you throw a logical argument at CCP when you have no f'n clue what they are actually going to change. You do not have any of their data. You do not sit in the room with them having discussions about what works or does not. Hey your not a DEV. I would not second guess a guy that likes to swing that damn nerf bat. Its like trying to do the same job twice. Don't blow it the first time around by **ing them off to the point they tell you to go get bent the next time you bring it up. The only reason I see this is getting pushed through is because this issue has high visibility and will help in the re-election process when it comes around again. Sisi. Oh look I just demolished your argument.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:53:00 - [25] Edited by: Farrqua on 06/08/2008 14:54:05 Really. So tell me what are Nozh findings. What has he come up with. Have you ever noticed when they do a big test on sisi it usually is not the same as when it hits TQ. Or some of the content never hits? So you are guessing.
Darius JOHNSON	Posted - 2008.08.06 17:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Farrqua Edited by: Farrqua on 06/08/2008 14:54:05 Really. So tell me what are Nozh findings. What has he come up with. Have you ever noticed when they do a big test on sisi it usually is not the same as when it hits TQ. Or some of the content never hits? So you are guessing. This would be because the DEVS would like the PLAYERS to TEST THE CHANGES on sisi then PROVIDE THEM WITH FEEDBACK DIRECTLY so that they can make a more informed decision. That's just a crazy shot in the dark though and not at all exactly what the devs have asked for... Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe. -- Illaria's CSM
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2008.08.08 20:25:00 - [27] Yes, and numerous people have been testing on sisi and have stated that the nerfs are too much, and as bad as they sound on paper.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.08 23:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Yes, and numerous people have been testing on sisi and have stated that the nerfs are too much, and as bad as they sound on paper. Yep as soon as Nozh gets his information from those players that are testing it and hopefully make some adjustments. Then we can bring up an "ISSUE" with the CSM as to the specific issues we would like them to reconsider. It makes it much easier to address specific issues that they plan after the SISI patch testing, then trying to bum rush the DEVS with out even knowing where they are in the process. You would only have to create one draft and a very poniente draft of proposal than guessing on half of it on what they plan to introduce to TQ or not. Tl:DR Present a clear and focused "ISSUE" to the CSM on the confirmed changes to be intoduced to TQ after the SISI testing.
Vandrion Gallente RABBLE-RABBLE	Posted - 2008.08.12 15:15:00 - [29] Edited by: Vandrion on 12/08/2008 15:16:39 CCP will nerf what they want to nerf regardless of player feedback. It is just the way it is. I happen to agree with these changes. This is by no means the only change that has had a few of the player base upset. Those old school players will remeber the change to missles and the addition of a boat load of skills that still don't boost them back to pre-nerf. Drones....yep been nerfed too....carriers...been nerfed too. Don't complain...Test it...provide your feedback after testing and roll with the punches.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:05:00 - [30] EVE development is not a democracy, and thank <insert deity here> for that.

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