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Conrad Davanev
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Posted - 2008.07.29 22:01:00 -
[1]
I am trying to get the elationships between these three straight in my own mind. This is a new character and long term I plan to run Angel missions with him. Altohough not intending to get into the RP aspects of the game very much quite yet, I would like to develophim "realisticaly".
Following the events in the book we see the Thukkers nd Elders as closely linked and having been so for some time, hence the new, better standing with the Republic. If not exactly friends they are no longer enemies. Sure the Thukker are often on the wrong side of the law but they show a major committment to the Minmatar race.
How does this tie in with their very close standings with the Angels. The cartel as a criminal organisation, an enemy of the Republic and not least a group which keeps slaves of presumably mostly Minmatar origin (given the cartels main operating areas). The only organisations I can work for without harming my Angel standings are Amarr and Caldari ( and almost khanid), hardly Elder friendly and all definitly anti thukker.
I realise that the Thukkers and Angels had to cooperate to some degree as 0.0 entities but surely the outing of the Thukkers as allies of the Elders should have changed this dynamic ? perhaps moving them to at least neutral to the Angels. I understand the in game need for a semi-legitimate faction that helps players gain standing with the criminal factions but something in the interanl logic of this relationship just does not work for me, am I missing something ?
As Caldari merc if I work for Thukker mix should I view that as simply working for the Angel connections within the Tribe and not realating to the ongoing
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.30 02:42:00 -
[2]
Collected info on the Cartel can be found here. Not sure how much this will help, but. . . .
It's worth noting that the Angel Cartel actually seems to do business with the Republic -- the Angel complexes in Minmatar space, unlike the complexes of other pirate factions, seem more like legitimate businesses. I've heard that there is evidence that the Republic gives some covert support to the Cartel, for exact what purposes, I'm not sure -- but it wouldn't surprise me is RSS had some ties. So the Thukkers being revealed to be closer with the Republic than was thought wouldn't necisarily mean that relations between them and the Cartel would sour.
On a side note, if you do want to try getting into the RP aspect of the game at some point, the Ghost Festival corporation are excellent people.
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Conrad Davanev
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Posted - 2008.07.30 05:43:00 -
[3]
Thanks for that.
I had thought of contacting Ghost festival but their skill point requirements are way out of my league at the minute.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.30 07:02:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
Since Ghost Festival is currently in a formative stage, applicants of all levels of experience and skill will be accepted. However, all pilots, regardless of division and specialization, will be expected to be able to field a combat-capable cruiser at need, either with the primary character or with an alt, as soon as possible after hire.
Taken from here. Depending on how new your character is and what past experience you have you may already meet those requirements. In any case you are welcome in our public channel "Ghost Festival". Or drop by "The Skyhook" for a drink.
To answer your question, my guess is that the Thukker - Angel standings didn't change because by supporting the Elders the Thukker didn't harm the Cartel. I am pretty sure the Thukker even want to keep up the good relationship. In the elder conflict they appeared to me as mercenaries sticking up for their race. I could be totally wrong in this assumption though. Still reading through the novel so may not yet have read info that is in there.
Diary of a pod pilot |
Conrad Davanev
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Posted - 2008.07.30 17:36:00 -
[5]
Part of my problem with the Thukker/Elder/Angels situation stems from the fact that my reading of the Thukker/Elder relationship in the novel is a little different to yours.
I don't have the book to hand so can't give an exact reference but I recall fairly early on when the Ambassador first meets the Elders they or his bodyguard describe how the Thukker have been sheltering them and assisting them for a long time. Then you get a major effort by the Thukker to assist in the attack on the Amarr, my reading of which suggested something more than supplying mercs to pad out an already large Elder force, something closer to an all out tribal effort.
Also the Thukker troops at the end did not strike me as being Mercs but as being genuinely believers in the cause.To me this indicates a serious commitment
by the Thukker tribe as a whole, or at least something close to the whole tribe, over many years. If this is indeed the philosophical position of the Thukkers then their links to the Angels are problematic at best.
The Angel Cartel, as represented by ingame standings are unlikely to be friends of the Elders. Neutral standings to the Amarr, Caldari and the Khanid indicates to me that they simply don't care about the Minmatar slavery issue. Slave traders and owners themselves, operating in Minmatar space the majority of their victims must in fact be Minmatar. Before the apparent commitment of the Thukkers to the Elder cause was revealed in the book I could see them and the Cartel working as allies if not genuine friends. Life in 0.0 and as unwanted visitors in Republic space would foster that relationship.
Now however that looks less plausible. If the Thukker are committed to the Elders and through them to the greater Minmatar cause their relationship with the Angels looks untenable. From the Angel point of view the Thukkers cannot look like reliable business associates.
Now I could rationalise some of this by regarding Thukker Mix and Trust Partners as being effectively Angel /Thukker joint ventures, sperate in someway from mainstream Thukker affairs. The Angels standing gains from
running Thukker storylines are big enough to justify this. Maybe these two corps represent just one wing of the Thukker tribe, a wing not interested in the Elders crusade and separate from those committed to the new cause. However the Elder loyalist aspect of the Thukker tribe would then lack in game representation.
As I said in my first post there is a logic for the Angels/Thukker link from the game mechanics prespective but I just find it hard to justify.
(Thanks for the info on Ghost Festival, the link I looked up must have been older as it talked about 8 mill or so SP minimum which is still months away for me. I will look into the public channel at some point. Although I have
been playing for over 2 years, this character is only a few weeks old. My old main has been permanently retired as he never really got going as a character, just as a collection of 20 mill or so SP. I plan on RPing this one properly once I get a real feel for where this character is headed. At the moment he is a simply a gun for hire with underworld connections, dissatisfied with the Caldari state and looking out for number one.)
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.31 06:53:00 -
[6]
Should have picked my words better, I didn't actually read the part about the Thukker in the novel yet. Actually it is probably going to take me a while to dig through it at the speed of 10 pages before my ride to work arrives. I'll defenately get back on this discussion once I've read the relevant information. What I posted before were just assumptions I had.
Diary of a pod pilot |
Camperific
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.08.21 03:22:00 -
[7]
Okay i havn't read the book but i can say that the thukker being close to the Elders and the cartel is still viable.The thukker in these days of eve are not a united tribe but have fragmented down clan lines.Indeed if you read the description for thukkers you will see that many no longer even see themselves as members of a tribe at all.
As to the fact that Angels have good relations to both the thukker and some republic groups it's worth noting that the cartel started as a group of brutor and thukker mercenarys providing muscle for the other factions,notably the serpentis organisation (and one wing 'the guardian angels' still do)
Hope that helps.
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Silver Night
Caldari
Naqam
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.08.26 20:13:00 -
[8]
There is a lack of uniformity to a lot of the prime fiction. While both the Book and the publicly available information on the Cartel and Thukkers is from a primary source, were I you I would go ahead and rank the public info ahead of the book. There are serious continuity problems with fairly basic stuff, much less something relatively subtle like this.
Eve could really use something like this guy.
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The Clown Man.
GLS Mr. State
Caldari Patriot.
Sansha's Nation Supporter
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.08.27 08:01:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Myrhial Arkenath on 27/08/2008 08:02:38
Would an enemy of my enemy is my friend theory apply here? A certain ammount of Minmatar and the Thukker too disagree with the way things are run in the Republic. They want the Elders to make their return and get back to the tribal way of life. The Angel Cartel provides a "better" alternative than the Republic and at the end of the day everyone needs money to put food on the table and because of that the Thukker are allied with the Cartel?
Don't got the book with me at the moment either so can't check the details. But this theory makes sense to me.
Edit: That offer sounds interesting Camperific, would it count for us too (assuming you were offering it to the OP)? If so I'd gladly discuss the details of this ingame.
Diary of a pod pilot |
Camperific
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.08.28 10:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath
Edited by: Myrhial Arkenath on 27/08/2008 08:02:38
Edit: That offer sounds interesting Camperific, would it count for us too (assuming you were offering it to the OP)? If so I'd gladly discuss the details of this ingame.
Of course it does 
Lets not forget the Republic government has also always had strong links to the criminal undrworld.In it's fledgling days this underground and black market were the only ways for them to get reliable information and much needed supplies.
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Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.09.02 12:45:00 -
[11]
Thukkers do indeed seem a little 'confused'
Amicable business relations towards the Cartel and the Republic does make sense if the neutralish stance was maintained - which it now patently isn't ...
Not just the assistance given by the Elders - but also the whole Ammatar issue .. exactly why are a significant portion of Thukker stations in a region governed by those they really don't get on with at all ?
I imagine Cartel management is casting few perplexed frowns at the Thukkers cheering on the Republican cause and wondering if business relations with them are still viable :)
True, there ought to be at least one 'middleman' faction that allows a way in for those that wish to work for the Cartel [as likewise Serpentis and Intaki] - but tbh - Ammatar look like better candidates to fulfill that role now compared to Thukkers to get in the Cartels good books - they are neighbours too after all, and Angels have never had much problem with the Amarr Empire itself either ... |
Nakatre Read
Caldari
Jamieson-Read Industrial Group
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Posted - 2008.09.02 13:59:00 -
[12]
I've been following this discussion from a distance. I've been an Angel Cartel RP'er for quite some time, and having both worked for the Cartel agents in Curse as well as Thukker agents in Empire, I can say that their standings relationship is far from balanced.
I noticed that faction standing boosts from Angel storylines with regards to the Thukker Tribe were not even half as large as the Angel standing boosts from Thukker storylines. Why is it that the increase of standing for the Cartel is so high?
There are many theories and as Silver Night has pointed out, PF certainly does lack in important issues. In my opinion, the Thukkers are more in bed with the Cartel than it appears. The criminal activities certainly seem to be Angel influences, and their freedom of being able to operate in Republic space can largely be linked to legal fronts. Those 'roid processing facilities that Angel Ship Logs talk about, are of course the Angel Creo Corp Mining Facility complexes you see around. Creo Corp is a legal corporation and aren't necessarily made up of Cartel employees. They are however run by the Angel Cartel "behind the scenes", and acting as a legal source of income without bothering the Republic and perhaps even providing employment for the Matari. What does this say about the Angel Cartel as an organisation? They are smart enough to use others to generate income for them as an addition to old school piracy.
Take a look at Caldari's Nugoeihuvi Corporation for example. One of the megacorps of the State but, as taken from their description, have ties with the Caldari underworld. Once you start doing the Caldari COSMOS you do in fact find out how NOH is not always getting their things done legally. There are also Angel Cartel agents placed in the State, which leds me to believe that their area of operations isn't just limited to Minmatar space - no, they expand. Plus, why wouldn't it be possible that the underworld Nugoeihuvi is involved in, includes the Cartel? Based on what you see in the COSMOS, you 'could' connect the dots, even if they're farfetched.
Now the relationship between the Thukkers and Minmatar Republic is supposedly 'better', yet ingame mechanics don't support this at all. You still kill Republic Fleet vessels while doing missions for the Thukker. I understand the story changes and the game is slow to reflect on it (perhaps the Empyrean Age 1.1 patch completely changes the mission lineup for the Thukkers!) but it is most of what we have. I haven't read through all of the novel yet  and I intend to do so as soon as possible. For now, after all this useless and pointless ranting, I can most definitely say that Thukkers are confused! But so are we, and I think we'd have to wait to see what CCP does about it.
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Camperific
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:29:00 -
[13]
I don't see the Thukker as confused,the Elder fleet may have included Republic vessels but these were mostly made up of groups such as the defients and wern't actually under orders form the Republic government,in fact hte rupublic government were as suprised as anyone.
As for the Thukkers cheering on the republic side,they ain't.They are cheering on the 'lets ****,burn and murder some amarrians'cause.Thukker hatred for the empire hasn't diminished any in the 110 years since the Yulai convention ,in fact they have been the only tribe to keep up attacks on both amarrian and ammatar forces in all that time,which is also one of the reasons they never joined the republic,they were very annoyed about the other tribes not taking their warnings seriously.
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Camperific
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Babel
Thukkers do indeed seem a little 'confused'
Amicable business relations towards the Cartel and the Republic does make sense if the neutralish stance was maintained - which it now patently isn't ...
Not just the assistance given by the Elders - but also the whole Ammatar issue .. exactly why are a significant portion of Thukker stations in a region governed by those they really don't get on with at all
Well for a start the Elder assistance had nothing to do with the republic,the Elders had been hiding amongst the Thukker this entire time.
Considering that then it's likely that the Thukker knew the true reason behind the Nefantar defection and so,under Elder persuasion,agreed to keep at least trade relations open with the Ammatar,and be there to give any assistance to those who wish to leave the mandate,not to mention being in a good place to harasse the ammatar fleet and keep it too weak to ever condsider launching attacks into either Republic or Thukker space.
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