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Kiyoshi Aphelion Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:56:00 - [1] It gives me great pride to release RS.I's first IPO. After weighing the many concerns and advice from several of you, and editing the IPO to reflect these changes, we're finally ready to go public. I want to thank anyone for this. Rendari-Shadowfires Initial Public Offering The IPO will operate as follows, shares will be sold on a first come, first serve basis. 6,000 shares at 1,000,000 isk a piece. If you wish to purchase shares, you may do so by posting a reply to this thread, or you may eve mail or convo me in game. If I am not online, you will receive your shares when I return. PLEASE DO NOT SEND MONEY UNTIL I HAVE CONTACTED YOU THROUGH EVE MAIL OR CONVO. I will be periodically posting the number of shares left on this thread. If there are any questions or comments either of the aforementioned forms of communication can be used to reach me. Thank you all, and good buying!
Kiyoshi Aphelion Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:57:00 - [2] Reserved.
Maestro Del'Tirith Del'Tirith Holdings	Posted - 2008.07.31 23:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 31/07/2008 23:48:06 The document states you will disclose all involved characters...can you disclose characters and the skill sets of individuals who are important to the business model? In other words, can you satisfy this statement: "Once the corporation is established and before shares are distributed via an IPO, all corporation members and officers will be disclosed."
Kiyoshi Aphelion Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.07.31 23:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 31/07/2008 23:48:06 The document states you will disclose all involved characters...can you disclose characters and the skill sets of individuals who are important to the business model? In other words, can you satisfy this statement: "Once the corporation is established and before shares are distributed via an IPO, all corporation members and officers will be disclosed." You're right I apologize. Myself obviously, and my alts. As far as my skillset is concerned I don't feel I need to divulge exactly all of my skills suffice to say that I have 47 million skillpoints. The other involved parties are: Ice D Morpheus Shadowfire gallen2 Fural Varin Tao Raven Blackstar Sargearas As far as their skillpoints and skillsets I've been told by all that they are not willing to disclose this on a public forum, however all characters are open to receiving communication and questioning. Again I apologize.
CornerStoner	Posted - 2008.07.31 23:59:00 - [5] Will an audit be conducted on corp officers and members/pilots? What is the expected/promised ROI? Exit strategy? Are there enough courier contracts to sustain the corp? What other divisions are planned? I'll tentatively reserve 100 shares.
Kiyoshi Aphelion Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:08:00 - [6] Originally by: CornerStoner Will an audit be conducted on corp officers and members/pilots? What is the expected/promised ROI? Exit strategy? Are there enough courier contracts to sustain the corp? What other divisions are planned? I'll tentatively reserve 100 shares. An audit can be conducted by an independent auditor if requested, however I'd no intention of doing one. If you wish to conduct one with an independent party, or auditing corporation, please notify me, however you would need to pay their expenses. All listed personnel participating in this venture have alts in the holding corp. As far as divisions planned, there aren't any specific planned as of now, but we would like to with our board of directors brainstorming constantly, move forward to bigger and better things once we've secured and succeeded with this division. We currently hold 2 private contracts which are fairly lucrative and will be operating on an almost weekly basis, as for other public contracts, there are more than enough to sustain the corporation and return a profit. As for promised ROI, I make no promises on returns. The corp's income will depend largely on our exposure and frequency of contracts. While we try as hard as possible to maintain a perpetual flow of income, there may come a time when our contracts cannot pay as lucratively as before. In terms of ROR per share, each share will return .02% of the total dividend payout. As far as an exit strategy. Should for any reason this venture fail, all corporation assets will be liquidated. Should the capital suffice, the corporation will buy back all shares at purchase price. If any money remains in the wallet, it will be disbursed through dividends. Should the liquidated capital not suffice to buy back all shares, it will be disbursed through dividends to the shareholders. And your reservation is noted...thank you.
Maestro Del'Tirith Del'Tirith Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:09:00 - [7] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 01/08/2008 00:13:48 I would like confirmation that, for instance, you can fly the jump freighter and that your associates can handle protection needs. If there are secondary haulers, I'd like to also have confirmation that they can...well haul. EDIT: Two other questions: 1) could a few of the other folks mentioned post here to confirm? 2) Sargearas seems to have no standings and be sitting in a newb corp all his life. Who is the main?
Roshen	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:38:00 - [8] well i'm posting too comfirm i'm me, and too correct Kiyoshi's spelling its sargeraes.
Finedele Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:42:00 - [9] wasnt there just some days ago a similar ipo? anyway, i am curious how this will go off, good luck
Maestro Del'Tirith Del'Tirith Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Finedele wasnt there just some days ago a similar ipo? anyway, i am curious how this will go off, good luck He posted a 'help me refine my plan a bit' thread, this is the actual offering.
Finedele Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.08.01 00:47:00 - [11] ahh yes thank you, now is the picture complete ^^
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.08.01 02:33:00 - [12] 1. Most of the IPO capital is tied up in 1 ship, that doesn't have 100% insurance. That is a big risk. 2. Investors will want to see that you and your employees can fly these ships. An audit will be mandatory or this won't go anywhere. You will have to organise this. 3. Can you handle security. How do deal with gankers? 4. Do you have any idea of what profits or what you can charge for your services. Without knowing what you can charge for your services and what money you can make is not really a business plan. Look, you have an idea but the details are a little thin on the ground to merit 6B in cash. I would want more detail on why you need a jump freighter. 5. Do you have a contract that requires it? 6. Are low-sec contracts required to make good profits? 7. Why should the pilots get 50% of the comission? If this IPO absolutely requires low-sec transportation to make any sort of return I think this is too risky an investment.
Maestro Del'Tirith Del'Tirith Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.01 02:41:00 - [13] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 01/08/2008 02:43:48 I am frankly very interested, but need my key questions above answered to more satisfaction. In particular I really want to know what sort of figures have been run and what kind of rate of return is forcasted for investors...i.e. lets talk the 'return' side of resk vs. return, or the rest is moot. I will wait to hear more. From cosmoray's post, it would indeed be nice to also hear what kind of breakout you forsee...i.e. are we talking a lot of nullsec hauling for private 0.0 alliance contracts? It somewhat changes the picture.
Arihana Geared Authority	Posted - 2008.08.01 02:42:00 - [14] cosmoray presents most of the questions that I would be curious to get answers on.
Entaran Caldari Excession Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.01 02:54:00 - [15] Reserve 300 shares pending audit. Otherwise nil.
Tiger Punch	Posted - 2008.08.01 03:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Entaran Reserve 300 shares pending audit. Otherwise nil. How 'bout getting a mind of your own.
Fural Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:32:00 - [17] Fural posting as requested.
Roguehalo Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:42:00 - [18] The idea that people are going to lend you 6 billion to buy ships which are then likely to get blown up is about as awful as it comes. This probably isn't a scam but you guys need to learn to make your OWN isk first before coming asking for public funds.
Kiyoshi Aphelion Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:46:00 - [19] Edited by: Kiyoshi Aphelion on 01/08/2008 04:49:48 I apologize for my lateness in responding, I just got home...The pilots mentioned will be posting as soon as they check their evemail boxes. Now to address some of your concerns: As to a shot in the dark on RoR...I estimate between 7-10% per share per quarter, and after meeting with my board of directors we're confident that we can guarantee a minimum of 3% per share. Your fears as to the risk of the majority of the IPO's capital, approximately 65% worth, will be tied up in a Jump Freighter. Your fears are correct in this worry, however we do not anticipate any problems or the loss of the jump freighter before we reach our liquid capital backing of 6 bil back in the wallet. The reason for this being we do not intend on taking any unnecessary risks with the JF. We'd be jumping to secured null and lowsec space if it's being used. In terms of risk vs. reward for lowsec and null sec hauls. The return on such public contracts are much greater than those in highsec, this isn't debatable, it's merely a point of fact, the more risk, the greater the reward. Are we basing our entire revenue on this fact alone? The answer is a resounding no. While the return is great, we plan to play it safe until we reach our liquid capital backing in the wallet, and then take greater risks to increase the dividends paid to shareholders. Can we handle the security? Absolutely, I'm accomplished PvPer as are several of the pilots involved, we've flown together before and work well together. Gankers are not a problem, just the other day we were handling a similar situation with a lowsec haul, and with a bit of patience, we waited him out and they left, it's pure and simple, PvPers, I know because I am one, need pew pew to stay interested, no pew pew, no interest. Do we currently have a contract that necessitates of a JF?...Not necessitates, however the JF would facilitate ease with which to fill this gap, it would make our operations more streamlined, efficient, and safe. In the future, I'm positive we will neccesitate the jump freighter for the simple purpose that business, is already growing. It's only a matter of time before we receive more alliance contracts. Can I fly a JF? Not presently, in 4 days I will be able to do so. gallen2 will also be capable of doing so within a short period of time as well. Why 50% of the reward? Because it's the only way to balance it all out. Most of these pilots, particularly the security ones can make more money ratting than they could hauling if we paid less than that. It keeps the pilots motivated and at the same time secures half of the reward for the shareholders. This commission is up for debate at shareholder meetings in the future, I plan to have this IPO/corp run as democratically as possible. As for an audit, apparently it's what you want, and as potential shareholders you're always right. It's required. If you'd like to suggest an audit, participate in one, perform one yourself, I'm open to discussing it, please convo me or eve mail me in game to handle that. I also have a Ventrilo Server which I would be more than happy to allow shareholders into to listen in on any operations in which we may be participating at that time. Any other questions or comments, please feel free to present them on here, or in private in game. I welcomed all of your points and look forward to hearing from you all and always looking forward to doing business with you all. Edit: Guaranteed percentage per share was entered incorrectly, meant to hit 3 not 4...Sorry.
Varin Tao	Posted - 2008.08.01 04:52:00 - [20] Varin posting as requested.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:10:00 - [21] What is the rate of return "per quarter"?? Rate of return per calendar month in the real world plz.
Kiyoshi Aphelion Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.08.01 05:18:00 - [22] A "quarter" is approximately 90 days. Our first fiscal quarter will end 90 days after the last share is sold.
Ami Nia	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:07:00 - [23] You are getting nowhere. Dividends should be payed weekly, biweekly or monthly. A very trusted player running a very low risk business can maybe get away with about 5% dividend a month. A less known player or a very trusted one with a slightly riskier business will have to ensure at minimum 8-10% each month. If your guaranteed payback is 3% every 3 months, you are not worth an isk. Anyone can get more than trice that much with zero risk by just putting the isks in a bank.
Green Phantom Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.01 06:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Ami Nia You are getting nowhere. Dividends should be payed weekly, biweekly or monthly. A very trusted player running a very low risk business can maybe get away with about 5% dividend a month. A less known player or a very trusted one with a slightly riskier business will have to ensure at minimum 8-10% each month. If your guaranteed payback is 3% every 3 months, you are not worth an isk. Anyone can get more than trice that much with zero risk by just putting the isks in a bank. I have to agree with Ami Nia looking at the interest rate at Ebank which gives 1.5% interest per month, investment in this project would prevent one's self from getting aprpx 1.5% on their investment. I also in the other thread tried to get what the monthly return per share was going to be, you gave me a slightly different answer in terms of the return 1/5000 share/ Your numbers averaged to about 2% return every 100 shares. Are you revising those numbers?
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.01 07:47:00 - [25] The period of 90 days per payout isn't a problem, however given the risks associated with this project a 5-8% ROI equivalent per month will be required. You need to look at your figures, including your salary, so that every 90 days you pay somewhere between 15 and 25%. I'd suggest your 'minimum' ROI is pegged at 15%. Since you're willing to run into lowsec and 0.0 for the contracts, might I suggest you actually determine the terms for these contracts - you should have a pretty large share of the courier contract pie, which means you should be in a position to dictate contract terms and set an SLA for basic turnaround times so customers can get an idea for how long you will take to deliver stuff. If you can do it fast and organised, people will pay a premium. You say you are making an IPO to satisfy the chronic shortages to courier contracts, and you have 2 JF-capable pilots. So scale the operation: I'd suggest you plan around running 2 JF's, 4 Freighters, 4 Blockade Runners and as many Itty V's as you can. Personally I've never seen the point of a Deep Space Transport, so why do you need one? For lowsec freighter running, do you have any Hyena / Rapier webbing alts as well? And of course you will need a nice selection of at least 4 cyno alts. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Ambo Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.08.01 08:06:00 - [26] A minor mistake in your document: Quote: Emergency Liquid Capital û 1,000,000.00 (billion) ISK Now on to the questions. 1) It seems to me that payout for the shareholder is exceptionally low. Even if you hit your 10% per quarter, thats only a little over 3% per month. My minimum is 5% per month for a really secure investment with a trusted party, in this case, a newcomer to MD with a moderately risky business plan, I'd be looking for 8%-10% per month. 2) Getting dividends every 3 months is too infrequent for my taste. 3) Lets look into that 10% per quarter figure a little: 6 bil inital caital, first payment estimated at 600 mil after 3 months. Your break down of profits is: 50% to pilots on the mission. 50% to corp wallet. 7% from corp wallet to you. 50% of what's left to shareholders. (until you get 6 bil isk liquid capital) That translates to: approx 1290 mil to pilots on missions approx 90 mil to you 600 mil to shareholders 600 mil retained profit There are several points that come out of this: a) It's going to take you around 10 quarters (= 30 months = 2.5 years) to get you to your target of 6 bil spare cash. i.e. it's not going to happen. b) Having made lots of courier contracts in my time, I'll make a generous assumption that the average contract is paying out 5 mil isk. That means you need to to 516 contracts per quarter or around 5-6 per day, every day. I was very interested in this, it's well presented, somthing different and pays out %age of profits rather than a fixed amount. However, I just can't see that the business potential is there. Even if you payed out the entire 2.5 bil per quarter you expect to make, it's still a pitiful return on 6 bil and that's before losses and consumables are taken into account. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Monolith Holder	Posted - 2008.08.01 08:14:00 - [27] Edited by: Monolith Holder on 01/08/2008 08:14:59 Originally by: Mr Horizontal Since you're willing to run into lowsec and 0.0 for the contracts, might I suggest you actually determine the terms for these contracts - you should have a pretty large share of the courier contract pie, which means you should be in a position to dictate contract terms and set an SLA for basic turnaround times so customers can get an idea for how long you will take to deliver stuff. If you can do it fast and organised, people will pay a premium. ...Personally I've never seen the point of a Deep Space Transport, so why do you need one?... The real money with deep space transport (ie 0.0) is in finding an alliance that needs logistics support. Contracts to and from 0.0 are sparse as many alliances have their own internal logistics system for members. To make good money in 0.0 transport you need to break into an alliance. Providing a logistics service to an alliance on a contract with specified terms (including how often to expect runs to be made, how much you will charge) is the only way to guarrente income. Another problem you will face as a logistics operation, that until you have built up a good level of trust nearly everyone will want 90-100% collateral for the courier contract. When you are using freighters and jump freighters you can quickly end up needed to provide collateral larger than even your ipo funds can provide. Especially if you are doing 0.0 couriering.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.01 09:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Monolith Holder Providing a logistics service to an alliance on a contract with specified terms (including how often to expect runs to be made, how much you will charge) is the only way to guarrente income. Well given alliances hate logistics generally (they view it as a necessary evil), there is definitely a market to be tapped into. That said however, I also just remembered that they will also need to use Carriers as well as JF's, as carriers are still better at shifting ships, particularly rigged ones that almost all 0.0 ships are. But yeah I'd like to see RSI already having 2 or 3 alliances signing up to the service even before starting up. And yeah 1b covering collateral isn't going to cut it for 0.0 couriering - try a limit of around 5b. And given that a trip to/from 0.0 will be around 10-15m in fuel alone for a JF, 0.0 logistics isn't a cheap thing to do. But obviously there is a huge trust hurdle to overcome if you're new to the game. Alliances are even less keen to trust people than investors are! Secondly a lot of alliances offer buy orders and market stuff on their outposts at about 20% less than empire. If you get access to Outposts, then you can simply shift stuff to and from empire as a trade route. What I meant by Deep Space Transports is the Tech 2 Transport ship like the Occator. Blockade runners like the Viator are brilliant because they're slippery as hell, but a DST doesn't make a lot of sense in the era of JF's. This IPO is definitely a good idea, but does need work. Have you also considered a franchise structure whereby you can hire and use couriers on a freelance basis and/or provide backup to existing logistics concerns in alliances? Logistics requirements can be very 'peaky' in alliances, so being able to concentrate resources to haul a huge amount in a short space of time (for a nice price, ofc), is definitely an idea. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Trading Bunnz Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.01 11:01:00 - [29] I'm not interested in investing, but if you can run escorted shipments and front up 100% collateral, I'll cheerfully be a customer and pay you 0.75% of collateral every run for HIGH SEC. We are talking in the billions for collateral, which likewise means courier fees would be in the 10's of millions, instead of 5m. :) FRPB Shares in Default
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.08.01 12:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Roguehalo The idea that people are going to lend you 6 billion to buy ships which are then likely to get blown up is about as awful as it comes. This probably isn't a scam but you guys need to learn to make your OWN isk first before coming asking for public funds. This

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