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CSM - Time to clean out the stink

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Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.03 22:54:00 - [91] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Malachon Draco I am not a very 'believing' person. I don't do 'faith' until they show me some reason to trust them. Which they haven't. Simple as that. Their ignoring of a significant number of players (this time its me, other times it has been others) in my opinion shows their contempt for us. Well, if they don't respect us enough to keep us informed, then I don't feel obliged to respect them enough to stay polite. I don't owe them any favours, I pay them 15 bucks a month per account and that is all the 'favour' they are entitled to. So you pay $15 for a game. CCP delivers you that service. If yo don't like this service any more, stop paying... But obviously it is not that easy. Because it is clear that you like Eve and wouldn't want it to degenerate into something crappy. But don't you think the devs would like to impove Eve even more? Yes, every major change (and the speed nerf as proposed will be a major change) will induce big emotions. So far CCP always managed to not break their game with the changes they made. Sure, there are many things which could be better gameplaywise. But to think that Eve would die because of the changes? I don't think so. Sure, if one invested billions in good implants and modules such a change is very bad. But that is the personal view. And CCP has a global view. If 500 people would suffer (because eg. high grade snakes) but the other 199500 subscribers will gain ... wouldn't you think it would make Eve better? Sadly someone is always messed up with every patch. So to make the best of it the only solution can be to provide CCP with hard facts based on numbers from sisi and present them in a reasonable form. I am sure they will consider these numbers then. CCP is pushing more people into blobs. That is the effect of these changes. And people who actually live and fight in 0.0 instead of being backseat drivers from Empire know what that means. This is not about highgrade snakes. I dont care if they are nerfed. What CCP is doing is making a gamestyle obsolete. And when that gamestyle is obsolete, there will be just 1 gamestyle left in 0.0 warfare. Blobbing. That is not a problem for me. I can do blobs. We just fought a 230 man Hydra gang with 140ish in our fleet. I think the K/D ratie is close to 100 to 1 in our favour. GG Hydra. But this is not good for the game. Simple as that. And the only frustrating thing is that CCP Nozh has shown himself to be ignorant of a great number of things involving the mechanics he is messing with. I don't mind trusting or at least argueing civilly with someone wwho knows what he is talking about, even if he disagrees with me. But I don't trust people I consider to be idiots.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:07:00 - [92] While this discussion is all very nice, what I really want to know is how come there were only 8 members of the CSM voting? Is it not supposed to be an odd numbered board just so we dont end up with silly ties? I noticed that some attending were designated alternates. Have some of those elected, now that they got their free trip to Iceland, stopped attending regular meetings? Or is something else going on? --
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:09:00 - [93] Originally by: Treelox While this discussion is all very nice, what I really want to know is how come there were only 8 members of the CSM voting? Is it not supposed to be an odd numbered board just so we dont end up with silly ties? I noticed that some attending were designated alternates. Have some of those elected, now that they got their free trip to Iceland, stopped attending regular meetings? Or is something else going on? Damn good questions. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP is pushing more people into blobs. That is the effect of these changes. There is indeed reason that the changes will increase blobbing. But what do you suggest then? CCP is going to change the speed things for the better or worse. I think the only reasonable thing to do is to make well thought suggestions and propose them firmly and with good reason. And you should be happy about this chance! Where else do you have such a change? YOU can change Eve and influence it in a positive way. It might not be much and it might take a while and is work, but yes, it is possible. I don't know any other game where this is possible. Originally by: Malachon Draco What CCP is doing is making a gamestyle obsolete. And when that gamestyle is obsolete, there will be just 1 gamestyle left in 0.0 warfare. Blobbing. That is anyway already the case. And CCP is aware of this, believe it or not. The problem is that there is no benefit from NOT blobbing. As soon as they introduce benefits from not blobbing then the blobs will become much less. And no, certainly not it is only in 0.0 In 0.0 only the blobs are that large that the nodes cannot handle them which adds another problem there. Originally by: Malachon Draco The only frustrating thing is that CCP Nozh has shown himself to be ignorant of a great number of things involving the mechanics he is messing with. I don't mind trusting or at least argueing civilly with someone wwho knows what he is talking about, even if he disagrees with me. But I don't trust people I consider to be idiots. Then either you shouldn't discuss with them or explain them with simple words and examples what exactly is wrong. Not discussing would lead to a development you wouldn't really like so that is not a good option then? That leaves only discussions left as good option. If you think he has no clue about what he is doing then explain it slowly and step by step what exactly is wrong. I usually found people quite reasonable after you break down a complex matter into many small simple matters and then explaining those simple matters each at a step unless the other is a complete dumbhead (and I don't think nozh is such an moron that he wouldn't understand the simple matters). If people don't understand the problem, the problem might be too complex. Break it down into easier parts until they understand it.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:11:00 - [95] Give it up Le Skunk, CCP fail to care and the CSM are there puppets. I feel sorry for some of the CSM tbh, they jumped on teh back of CCP wording "We nolonger care about the forums, lets get the players to just bring us the good ideas from it" just in a larger document. Give a man a hint of power (and a free drinking holiday) and he will kill other men to get it. -V8I-
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:14:00 - [96] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Treelox While this discussion is all very nice, what I really want to know is how come there were only 8 members of the CSM voting? Is it not supposed to be an odd numbered board just so we dont end up with silly ties? I noticed that some attending were designated alternates. Have some of those elected, now that they got their free trip to Iceland, stopped attending regular meetings? Or is something else going on? Damn good questions. Sadly these questions will get ignored in the generall rabble rabble over the other topics in this thread. --
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:16:00 - [97] Originally by: Gnulpie That leaves only discussions left as good option. That would be all good and nice, if it were actually possible to communicate with him. But he has been a big no show. How do you explain something to an idiot who refuses to even show up for a dialogue?
White Ronin Gallente Screenout	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:21:00 - [98] Originally by: Jimer Lins Irrelevant? No, being in the minority doesn't make one irrelevant. c.f. "tyranny of the majority". Actually I believe the quote is more along the lines of "beware the tyranny of the masses" and was in reference to democracy and the ignorance of mob mentality. As to the rest of this thread that I wont read all the way through as it is more of the same crying by those who can only fly ships that they can do so by "buying" it. While I understand so many people are crying over this issue, I think the CSM are actually doin the right thing though maybe not intentionally. Wait and see how it works out cause right now nano is screwing everyone but those rich enough to use it. But the new changes are adding depth and tactics to a game that was beginning to become stale in its pvp approach. So far, only good things have been written about the changes they are testing on SiSi. The game looks like it is expanding, ships are getting fixed and one more "win" button is being removed from the game. AB's now have a purpose while still allowing MWD's to have one as well. AF's look like they finally might have a role instead of just a wasted time sink to get to Hvy Assault ships. Recons are getting a slight edge that will make them effective for experienced players. And you can stand a chance-in-hell without spending 3 billion on implants and rigs and ships. Priceless. Now, if your only argument against these changes is the money you spent on ships and rigs and implants or the fact that now you cant be great cause all you can fly is nano and will cancel your account if these changes happen then by all mean pls leave. CCP wont tell you that but let me spell it out for ya real sweet. Nano is driving people from the game. By removing its abuse you help game population. If you quit then that is more room for someone else who WILL come play this game since it is more then a "win" template game and is more skill and strategy. Adapt or die. But if you are gunna leave, please do it soon and take all your "I spent billions of farmed isk for those implants" and the "I cant pvp otherwise" and those "but I suck at pvp otherwise" people with you so we can move on with making the game better. Jade- Please stop sucking up to the vocal isk ***s. IF anything you should have came here and said it was the smart thing to do by waiting to see how it turned out before saying anything. But you came here claiming disgrace without a shred of reason why the proposed "nerf" was more harmful then good. That is disgraceful. The devs are doing their job. Do yours please. They outlined it for you if you would reread the minutes from Iceland. Get off your knees and do it or quite. But for gods sake stop playing forum *** for political leverage. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:22:00 - [99] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Gnulpie That leaves only discussions left as good option. That would be all good and nice, if it were actually possible to communicate with him. But he has been a big no show. How do you explain something to an idiot who refuses to even show up for a dialogue? With people calling me an idiot all the time, I would find any number of things that I could better spend my time on. Like, cleaning underneath my fingernails. Pealing paint off a wall. Designing text images. Playing EvE. Building stick-figures with paper clips. Reading WoW forums, which are quickly being surpassed in 'lowest average intelligence of posters' by these forums here. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:26:00 - [100] Originally by: Ruze With people calling me an idiot all the time, I would find any number of things that I could better spend my time on. .... Playing EvE. God, if only this were true. Then I'd call him an idiot a lot more often.
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:27:00 - [101] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 03/08/2008 20:27:41 Originally by: Le Skunk Player supports for in game trombones : 36 True fact: I was a tromboner from fifth through twelfth grade. Other true fact: nano mechanics needed a change Therefore: internet trombones > nanoships Sorry you are in the minority with this opinion. And its a democraticaly elected CSM. So im afraid you must pipe down. SKUNK Yeah because everyone that plays EVE posts on the forums. Maybe the minority of the forum ***s but as a whole of EVE we will never truly know. CSM was a horrible idea, but the nano changes were needed. There is/was a reason nano's were being overused and turning into a must. Best counter to nano was to nano, that was unhealthy for EVE. DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!**
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.03 23:38:00 - [102] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Originally by: Lolarina nice troll skunk hi-5 Do you really think hes trolling? Yes
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:01:00 - [103] Ambulate to the Music! Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:03:00 - [104] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Ambulate to the Music! Just what eve needs tbh, what a load of ****ing shit. -V8I-
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:06:00 - [105] Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: Roy Batty68 Ambulate to the Music! Just what eve needs tbh, what a load of ****ing shit. In the one had, it's a shame you won't enjoy it. In the other, I'm glad I don't have to listen to you while I DO enjoy it. (I'm just saying that, since we're getting this development free, we might as well use it.) "The greatest offense is no defense."
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:10:00 - [106] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: Roy Batty68 Ambulate to the Music! Just what eve needs tbh, what a load of ****ing shit. In the one had, it's a shame you won't enjoy it. In the other, I'm glad I don't have to listen to you while I DO enjoy it. (I'm just saying that, since we're getting this development free, we might as well use it.) Walking around in stations I might enjoy, but hanging around in stations playing music on trumpets and other instruments? that fits the discription of eve down to a T. but i'm glad you will enjoy it, I hope I won't have to listen to you while you do. -V8I-
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:19:00 - [107] Nah. While I am hyped about the social climate that Ambulation might bring, being as much a roleplayer as anything else, I'm more looking forward to ambulation because of the later possibilities it could bring. Right now, they don't have any plans of adding combat. But I imagine, as their other game grows and develop, we might at least gets some hand-to-hand fighting in a ring or two. By that point, there will be some CEO's and corporate officers I'll challenge to a fist fight, just because honor demands it ;?j I look forward to Ambulation because of the possibilities. Most likely, it'll fall WAY short of all my hopes and dreams. But I'm a realist, so I expect the worst anyhow. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:19:00 - [108] Originally by: Jimer Lins The "trivial gimmick issues" thing is kind of silly. I mean, you've got an agenda, and some items are going to be less important in the overall scheme of things than others, but still. It's fluff, deal with it and move on; you're a politician and you've gotta deal with stupid shit as well as the real meat. The problem is really that people are saying the CSM failed because they didn't send a concise statement of some kind to CCP on the upcoming speed changes when you can't even get any 3 people to agree on a given aspect of those changes? How can the CSM be expected to make a statement on anything when there's no consensus among the players, no confirmation on what the final changes are, and active development being done on it even as we speak? This. I mean, what can the CSM say? "There is a lot of player concerns about the changes?" - I think they aren't blind. "We think X or Y (if they can't agree on the issue!) should be nerfed/un-nerfed?" - That's infringing on the roles of the balance team for one, and if the CSM cannot agree what should be done precisely (which it most likely can't!), then it cannot make suggestions either. Jade going on to send his own papers is just pushing your own agenda and bypassing the CSM, which IS bad. "We don't think there should be any changes." - Well, CCP does. "Take care that some ships/playstyles don't get nerfed to oblivion." - Well, that's why its on SISI and going to be on SISI for at least a month. I mean, realistically, what can the CSM say? Particularly if not all members agree on it. And, anyway, you've always got to deal with fluff, and fluff is easier to deal with then the preety contested hard stuff - the CSM is a democratic committee. If something is very contested, it will not pass, simple as that, regardless of the good will of some CSM members (and them acting on their own hand is a bad thing; pushing your own agenda instead of being a proper representative of the players who voted you in sucks tbh). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:22:00 - [109] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/08/2008 00:22:30 At any rate, with SISI testing in such early stages, wait and see is the best approach for the CSM anyway. Formal documents/complaints at this stage are silly; they're testing and changing things. By the time your formal complaint gets done, there might be a different situation on SISI. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sicex Blake Industries Collective Asylum	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:26:00 - [110] I do agree that the CSM is damn-near useless, but that may be a fault of the players just as much as the devs who acted like it would call CCP's shots. If people want more out of their CSM, maybe the players need to first put some amount of trust in them - or simply don't expect them to read your minds and have the time to come up with logical problems to overcome. If you are a player that sees an area of EVE that needs major improvement, take it upon yourself to investigate the matter as much as you can. Run the numbers, reproduce the problem, get hard evidence if you can of a problem. Then take all that info - write it down in a post and you can then submit it to the CSM directly. You cannot expect CSM members to be delving deep into all the areas of EVE that all the players think need improvement. That would be a monstrous task - instead bring the issue to their attention with actual numbers and a problem presented in a coherent way. We simply cannot sit back and expect the CSM to be these super-players that suddenly have 36 hour days... Help them, help you. And for the Love of Jebus, why does everyone expect HEAVY Assault Cruisers to be the fastest thing on the block??
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:29:00 - [111] Originally by: Ruze Text I'm all for fistfighting, contract killing and other "dark" things, as it fits into the discription of eve, a cold dark harsh world. Somehow a "enter style of music" band standing around playing songs really isn't Eve imo. But i'll agree, I expect the worst as well it's just a shame that carebears will get there happy happy joy joy rock band wannabe WoW loving dancing crap before we get the bash you over the head with my metal pipe -V8I-
EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:39:00 - [112] CSM sucks.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.04 00:44:00 - [113] I can't really fault the CSM's decision to wait until there's something to discuss before attempting to push the nano nerf discussion to the table, but musical instruments in ambulation is an issue that I don't think the CSM should be concerning itself with. Does this mean that the Features and Suggestions area is defunct now? Should we just fill the CSM voting area with everything we want to say, on the off-chance that it's a slow month and it gets in the top number of voted threads? Pretty ridiculous state of affairs. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.04 01:20:00 - [114] Grade the CSM: F-
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.04 02:18:00 - [115] So, one issue goes somewhere, another, unrelated issue (to the previous), does not. Now, how are these two related? I also find it amazing that these threads are pretty much always made by the forums most well-known whiners. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Redhouse	Posted - 2008.08.04 02:45:00 - [116] I for one welcome our trombone playing overlords
dassit Finis Lumen	Posted - 2008.08.04 02:57:00 - [117] Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP is starting to make the same mistakes SOE did with the CU and the NGE. If they continue to **** up I don't care if they go under. Its a cruel world, isn't it? C'mon man. Please dont be dramatic. The first HUGE difference is that CCP doesnt charge for their expansion. The 30 dollars 2 weeks before changing the game was the biggest effect. Secondly, to do what SOE did CCP would literaly have to take 60%+ of the ships, and races out of the game permanently. I dont see that. I see balancing. Maybe a little heavy handed, but balancing that in the end needs to be done.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.04 03:20:00 - [118] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/08/2008 03:19:54 Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP is starting to make the same mistakes SOE did with the CU and the NGE. If they continue to **** up I don't care if they go under. Its a cruel world, isn't it? Tarminic's law. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.04 05:54:00 - [119] Originally by: dassit Originally by: Malachon Draco CCP is starting to make the same mistakes SOE did with the CU and the NGE. If they continue to **** up I don't care if they go under. Its a cruel world, isn't it? C'mon man. Please dont be dramatic. The first HUGE difference is that CCP doesnt charge for their expansion. The 30 dollars 2 weeks before changing the game was the biggest effect. Secondly, to do what SOE did CCP would literaly have to take 60%+ of the ships, and races out of the game permanently. I dont see that. I see balancing. Maybe a little heavy handed, but balancing that in the end needs to be done. This is not as big as the NGE, granted. But is it that dissimilar in size to the CU (Combat Upgrade) that happened in april 2005? This is a chart of MMO subscriptions, including SWG: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html The first big drop for SWG was the CU. Also there are similarities. The whole CU thing was caused by the fact SOE didn't understand their game. From the stacking of templates (fencer/pistoleer) to the effect of maximizing crafting (2k-3k doctor buffs leading to 85% armor becoming wearable)? How is that noticeably different from CCP getting blindsided apparently by the stacking of speedmodules they themselves introduced? If you look at what CCP Nozh has brought up as practical examples of the problem, and you had to guess whether or not he actually played Eve, what would your guess be? Bottomline, CCP is not inspiring any confidence with the way they are handling this. The devs seem uninformed and are not communicating properly about such a big change.
dassit Finis Lumen	Posted - 2008.08.04 06:40:00 - [120] Originally by: Malachon Draco This is not as big as the NGE, granted. But is it that dissimilar in size to the CU (Combat Upgrade) that happened in april 2005? This is a chart of MMO subscriptions, including SWG: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html The first big drop for SWG was the CU. Also there are similarities. The whole CU thing was caused by the fact SOE didn't understand their game. From the stacking of templates (fencer/pistoleer) to the effect of maximizing crafting (2k-3k doctor buffs leading to 85% armor becoming wearable)? How is that noticeably different from CCP getting blindsided apparently by the stacking of speedmodules they themselves introduced? If you look at what CCP Nozh has brought up as practical examples of the problem, and you had to guess whether or not he actually played Eve, what would your guess be? Bottomline, CCP is not inspiring any confidence with the way they are handling this. The devs seem uninformed and are not communicating properly about such a big change. I view it as CCP unscrewing what they screwed up with the introduction of rigs. Speed is imbalanced in this game IMO. The mechanics affected stop at nano ships...I.E HACs, Recons, and inties. The basics of industry POS, and fleet warfare will remain the same. There is no dumbing down of the PVP mechanics IMO, in fact I think they are injecting back a lot of the tactical decisions you needed to make before you could just outrun everything with nanos. I will agree that they are pretty deep changes in one specific skill set, however Nothing like the core mechanic changes of the CU and the NGE specificaly, and it only really affects one FOTM playstyle. It isnt like they are completely taking drones, or any attributes of any of the weapon systems away. If everyone who only used a unbalanced mechanic exclusively, "speed" quit well then there is less lag for me in all honesty. You all have the right to vote with your pocket book...lord knows that I did with SWG.

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