Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Davies
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:29:00 -
[1]
I don't understand how people are still making large profits these days.
In less then 30 days ferrogel went from 32 000 isk to 22500 isk a unit. Fermionic Condensates went from 52 000 isk to 39 999 isk a unit.
A vagabond went from 90 mil to 67 mil. Building price is 58 mil. So thats 9 mil profit for 2 days of building. (invention cost are included).
That are just some examples i'm posting here.
A good mission runner is earning 100 mil without making his hands dirty. You can make more but i'm talking about the average gamer here. For a mission runner income is always the same, so he is the only one that is taking benefit from this price drops.
I understand that everybody want to sell there stuff and as fast as posible but what you guys are doing is killing the market. If you want to run a industry that is making profit then you don't rush in like a fool. Don't put your stuff on the market if there is 500 mil units allready on the market. Just move your stuff and wait until good direct sells are popping up. 30 days back wen the ferrogel was a 30 k a unit then the market got overrunned by sellers. The direct sell order was around 29k. But people are greedy and want more for it then that 29k. 30 days later those greedy people destroyed the market and now they are getting 22.5 k a unit. You can compair this market to the real-life market... Look at the oil in our world...don't pump more oil up so they can keep the price high. All that bullshit of running out of oil is just to trow salt in our eyes.
Us the same tactics as real-life and each player or corp can get a good price. Don't be a fool by rushing in like a madman. Same is for the tec 1 ships...i don't know if your happy with 400 000 isk profit. A Thorax is going for 5.6 mil a ship. Building price is 5.2 mil a ship. Think about it...goldage for mission runners but dry times for builders. Those people that are destroying are either bad calculaters or just bad players.
All fly safe and think about it..(I'm not speaking to mission runner but to my fellow builders! )
Davies
|
Braaage
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:32:00 -
[2]
Well I know for sure that some people use macros to keep their products lowest on the market. I managed to get someone to drop a Jump Freighter below manufacturing price (adjusting my own JF sell price) and then bought it to sell for a profit
No-one in their right minds would drop prices that low, I did it to see how low they would go :) --
POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EVE Database, Character Generator & more |
Karanth
Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:33:00 -
[3]
Markets are fun, aren't they? In before the Market Discussion brigade.
Warp Speed skill needed! |
Borini
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:34:00 -
[4]
Welcome to the world of competition
|
Braaage
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:35:00 -
[5]
Oh and a word of advice. Just because someone undercut you doesn't mean you have to undercut them, your products WILL sell in the end. --
POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EVE Database, Character Generator & more |
Transmaniacon
Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 11:58:00 -
[6]
When people do the .01 isk undercut, just buy it all up and sell it at your price.
|
Valle Deelite
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:37:00 -
[7]
Well, a couple of things.
The example you use is a ship that is probably declining in popularity because with the upcoming nano nerf it won't be an "I Win" button anymore, so it stands to reason that the price would decline. In eve production, as with real-life business, it pays to pay some attention to what's going on in the world and adjust accordingly.
Component values are just responding to the same forces of supply and demand. If they get bid up to the point that building with them isn't profitable anymore (because T2 ship prices have reached a level of price resistance on the market), the only ones buying them will be speculators, and when those suckers have been cleared out of the market the prices will "crash" back to a level of profitability.
In your example of both ship and component prices dropping, producers won't be squeezed much unless they're holding a lot of inventory. Holding a lot of inventory is never a good idea anyway. Try to keep your operation as inventory lean as you can using "JIT" practices.
|
Rowland sel
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:49:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Rowland sel on 04/08/2008 13:51:36 Edited by: Rowland sel on 04/08/2008 13:51:02 Those 2 ships i used of examples where just random ones :)
I only build tec2 ship in any kind. Not only vagabonds :)
But i'm talking in general.
Welcome to the world of competition <-- thats also true but i'm trying to let people see that they are playing but not making profit. No profit is not the advancement you make in the game. And competition have to stay healty not some mad actions.
|
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 13:59:00 -
[9]
"A vagabond went from 90 mil to 67 mil"
Do you really need that ones explained?
Wherever you went - here you are.
|
Stosh Bodenski
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 14:34:00 -
[10]
HereÆs a response from a different perspective. Yes, players should research like crazy before manufacturing anything to try and make money from it. Players are making bad decisions that are keeping them from making the money they could possibly be making. Yes, their choices are affecting other players that are now not able to make as much money as before. However, I donÆt feel like its realistic to expect any single item to always make a consistent profit. Just like there shouldnÆt be a single ôI Winö ship for PvP or PvE, there shouldnÆt be an automatic ôI Winö item to manufacture for profit. You can almost look at the dropping prices as a ænerfÆ to the amounts of money being made on a single item. Except here it is the market, not CCP managing the nerf process. And it is similar to the real world. If one could manufacture an item to make $10,000 profit per widget, they better make all they can quickly because people that are only making $2,000 profit making a different widget will start making the same thing to make a better profit. I donÆt think there is an ôI winö item to manufacture in either the real world or in Eve. If there was, weÆd all win and stop playing the game because it would bore us to death!
|
|
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 14:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Davies Us the same tactics as real-life and each player or corp can get a good price. Don't be a fool by rushing in like a madman. Same is for the tec 1 ships...i don't know if your happy with 400 000 isk profit. A Thorax is going for 5.6 mil a ship. Building price is 5.2 mil a ship. Think about it...goldage for mission runners but dry times for builders. Those people that are destroying are either bad calculaters or just bad players.
That's a 7% profit. If you got the volume to support that, that's damn good money. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
|
Frenden Dax
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 15:51:00 -
[12]
No it's not, tbh. :S You're not factoring in sales tax and transaction fee.
|
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:11:00 -
[13]
Sorry for not putting in the hypothetical sales tax and brokerage fees, subtract 35k isk.
Wait, that brings us back down to 7.0192307692307692307692307692308% profit down from 7.6923076923076923076923076923077
As you can see I rounded down in the first example to cover those costs. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
|
Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:19:00 -
[14]
7% profit on ship manufacturing is admirable. It can be a very saturated market.
|
Chigger Troutslayer
The Intergalactic Federation New Eden Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 16:24:00 -
[15]
I have a theory on why some people sell stuff for very slim margins "ruining" the market. I occasionally am guilty of it myself. Why would I sell a T1 BS for 500,000K above mineral cost? Because when you get a pile of minerals from mission loot which is easier? Putting up and managing 7 sell orders to get my "full value" out of the minerals? Or build a popular ship and put one sell order on the market, and go run another mission in the time it takes to research and setup those 7 orders (and make 5-20mil in bounties)? Its about opportunity costs and in empire I cant be bothered to worry about making a decent profit margin.
My hats off to you guys earning a living in Empire by manufacturing and building stuff, but its not for everyone.
|
Anndarra Winge
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 18:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Davies I don't understand how people are still making large profits these days.
STOP BUILDING STUFF!!11!
I know that being an industrialist is your game. I'm a trader and I make the isk the old school way: buy low/sell high. But last month, trit prices spiked and even the pirates in lowsec were mining like noobs. Now the market is awash in minerals and the prices are bottoming out and everyone is building stuff - anything to get a decent margin. So the price of stuffÖ is going down.
Me - I'm making a killing these days, between product being sold below (sometimes waaay below) mineral price and buying up super-cheap product that I can store until the markets even out in month or two - I'm in Fat City. (Come on! 7% profit! Are you guys nuts! I don't take my badger out of station for less than 15%!)
Maybe you should rethink your game play. Take a break from building stuff and go out and gank a trader like me or run mission or two.
|
Von Kroll
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 20:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Davies A vagabond went from 90 mil to 67 mil. Building price is 58 mil. So thats 9 mil profit for 2 days of building. (invention cost are included).
At a 67 mil isk sell price, you're making 15% margin. At 90 mil isk sell price, you're making almost 35% margin. You talk about people being realistic and using real-world business decision-making processes in game? What's unrealistic is your profit expectation. Just because someone used to buy it at that price doesn't mean that's what its worth...
|
|
CCP Mitnal
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 05:25:00 -
[18]
Moved to Market Discussions.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang Special Agent Mitnal; Saving the forums one thread at a time! |
|
Ambo
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 07:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Davies Don't be a fool by rushing in like a madman.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ordon Gundar
Caldari Kingfisher Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 08:02:00 -
[20]
There does seem to be an influx of would-be traders at the moment though, as I am finding some rediculously high buy-orders for some items that I have been buying and selling comfortably for a while.
It makes no difference to me really. I just have to wait for their ill-conceived buy orders to fill. It just delays my return for a few days. I just expand my portfolio into another market for a while, and wait for the unstable one to return to sanity!! Fly fast..Rats Die..Buy Low..Sell High- Ordon Gundar, CEO of Gundars Independent Traders - Space (G.I.T.S) |
|
KtoJest
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 10:28:00 -
[21]
Just some general comments on the posts in this thread. I'm a noob compared too many of you and i don't mfg anything (yet). I read the thread to get an idea about the trials and tribs of mfg. Some of the things i may say are probably obvious to everyone except a noob like me.
It seems that a mfg. is caught in the middle. Firstly, s/he is dependent on the raw material mkt and then on the wholesale/retail mkt in order to clear a profit. When raw goods are low in price, everyone buys and starts building. Everyone finishes about the same time and dumps their product on the market. So, in a sense, everyone is in lockstep and the most efficient mfg. gets there first and hopefully makes a profit. The rest see eroding margins and settle for the 7% solution (not the same as Sherlock Holmes did). Then comes the price cutting and pretty soon one is out-of-pocket. If one is in it just for the fun of building a BS,i guess that's ok.In my thinking, the game is not structured for the 'just-in-time inventory mgt.' mode of operation and that means holding inventory, rather than ISK and building and selling after the initial flood of items hit the market and is mopped up (asychronously). I see this pattern repeat itself over and over again. If it's a case of 'i've got to sell this because i need cash to build another on' then i would imagine one is always 'behind the 8-ball'.
Case in point, Shuttles. A round of shuttles came out at about 9k a copy (a month or so ago). The mkt. was flooded with them. You couldn't give them away. Once the initial rush was over, i find that some of the same stations that were dumping them at 9k are buying them at 5x the price (45k). But that means holding inventory and waiting for the mkt. to come to one. It also means moving stock to where the mkt is. Most folks don't fly ships that can carry 500m3, so you go to the customer instead or hire someone to do it for one. Simple items CL-S, comes on the mkt. @ 2.+ ISK/charge. It's an immediate, in station trade at double the price or more. So why did the original seller dump at 2./piece? Undercapitalized? Needed the money to mfg. more? Crash the mkt? Crash it for how long, a couple of hours, a couple of days? It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Then there is price and mkt. opportunity. I imagine the mkt for BSs (the same can be said for all hi-ticket items) is quite limited (relatively speaking) because of the necessary skill levels before one can pilot one and the cost to outfit one properly. So we are talking about a hi-price to buy one and then what, maybe the same amount of ISK to fit one out properly. What is the percentage of players that have the skills/cash in hand? At the station the item was mfg. at? And what trader will drop that much ISK to make 10 to 15% on a trade, assuming s/he has a ship that can carry it.? The risk/reward ratio doesn't make much sense, in my view. Someone posted, 'STOP BUILDING THEM' ...do something else, move the market up and not down, everyone wins. ;)
As a trader, i don't use buy-orders for a number of reasons. First, i'm at the mercy of someone that is going to dump/or not dump an item at my bid price. Second, some of the buy prices are so ridiculous that even the newest of players soon learns that they can put their stuff on the open mkt. for more ISK. There is more than enough 'stuff' out there at a 30-50% discount to be bought and i control the buying. If the mkt. breaks and i've got outstanding buy contracts out there - i lose. Dealing with 0.01 ISK bid differences seems to be a gross waste of time (these are my opinions)
Does it work or am i blowing smoke? I reviewed the latest buy/sell/profit charts, of my trades over the last 6 months. Lowest profit item 65%. Highest profit item 4000%, Average profit 350% (removing the high and the low items). Its working well enough for me, for the moment.
...for what it's worth :) |
Salisuka
Caldari 98.4
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 10:53:00 -
[22]
Moon minerals, modules and ships are totally different things. The module market seems to be doing a bit below average (yes, my average). The ship market is in a tizzy and the moon mineral market ... well I really don't know wtf is going on there.
The entire "speed rebalanced" blog has been over-hyped to the point where you can make good profits off reselling speed mods. I think the majority of the public missed the point that the changes are far away because they require very very careful balancing. Moreover, less speed is good for the market. Less speed = more deaths = more people buying stuff = profit????
As far as ferrogel goes, i'll put on a dress and dance for anyone who can tell me how they make a decent profit at the present raw material prices.
|
KtoJest
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 11:06:00 -
[23]
Quote: As far as ferrogel goes, i'll put on a dress and dance for anyone who can tell me how they make a decent profit at the present raw material prices.
...now there's an interesting offer. have you got nice legs? |
Rowland sel
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 11:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Davies A vagabond went from 90 mil to 67 mil. Building price is 58 mil. So thats 9 mil profit for 2 days of building. (invention cost are included).
At a 67 mil isk sell price, you're making 15% margin. At 90 mil isk sell price, you're making almost 35% margin. You talk about people being realistic and using real-world business decision-making processes in game? What's unrealistic is your profit expectation. Just because someone used to buy it at that price doesn't mean that's what its worth...
True i'm still making profit, but 15 % profit is not high enough. If you look at the time it takes to make a tec 2 ship then 15 % profit is to low. For that 11 mil profit i have i had to work atleast 5 days. Building the tec1 ship, invention of the ship (blueprint), building components and then building the tec2 ship. 5 days for 1 ship at 11 mil isn't worthed anymore to do. And if we all start thinking this way the market will be empty after a while. Its a circle of life and for now there is a ditch in that circle. Well for me there is a ditch :).
And don't focus to much on vagabonds it was a example..i'm still making huge amounts of profit on deamos and istars and other ships, but i just wanted to know how the market can go from perfect to crap. Because i'm thinking futhere then this alone...if moon mats go low like ferrogel that means that they have less isk aswell so less buyingpower for them and so on...
In my eyes its a golden age for traders but hard times for suppliers and builders.
|
Rowland sel
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 12:05:00 -
[25]
And since we are talking about some ferrogel.
2.119.296,00 isk profit a day if you buy all the mats in.
63.578.880,00 isk profit a month
158.600.000,00 isk cost to run a medium pos to make the ferrogel
is 95 mil isk loss... So tell me whats healty about this ?
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 12:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rowland sel And since we are talking about some ferrogel.
2.119.296,00 isk profit a day if you buy all the mats in.
63.578.880,00 isk profit a month
158.600.000,00 isk cost to run a medium pos to make the ferrogel
is 95 mil isk loss... So tell me whats healty about this ?
Towers count for sov, so you have markets awash in mats that are only there to recoup cost for sov towers.
Welcome to the broken mechanics of EVE's T2 market. |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research
|
Posted - 2008.08.05 15:58:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Davies
I was holding lots of T2 and it fell in price
fixed
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.08.06 11:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Braaage Well I know for sure that some people use macros to keep their products lowest on the market.
No-one in their right minds would drop prices that low, I did it to see how low they would go :)
There's a mistake, believing people to be in their right minds. I know someone who had alot of buy orders setup, and playing the market they managed to get someone to raise their prices so hight that he actually built a heap of stuff to sell back to him, and sold back all the items he had bought spread across a region for a nice profit. Had a nice convo with the guy afterwards.
Yes, there are people that stay up playing for 6 hours and eventually make some very silly decisions. Usually they don't have their cost info with them, and sometimes they're just trying to get YOU to undercut them :o
Short answer to this is that there are alot of inventors, and not all are looking at their costs. It's not impossible to find something with good profit to invent, but you need to look for it, you can't just keep inventing the same product and not expect the profit to fall out of it. The proffit falls out of every product eventually as people realise it's there and chase it. Then you get left with some people dumping their inventory bellow cost to raise isk to chase the next big thing.
Patience is key, and making money off other people being lazy is also right up there. ;)
|
Kruntologist
Red Eye .Inc. Rare Faction
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 04:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Chigger Troutslayer I have a theory on why some people sell stuff for very slim margins "ruining" the market. I occasionally am guilty of it myself. Why would I sell a T1 BS for 500,000K above mineral cost? Because when you get a pile of minerals from mission loot which is easier? Putting up and managing 7 sell orders to get my "full value" out of the minerals? Or build a popular ship and put one sell order on the market, and go run another mission in the time it takes to research and setup those 7 orders (and make 5-20mil in bounties)?
This is worth mentioning again. Combining minerals and making decent money now is often better than trying to sell multiple items over a series of days/weeks. Each item is a possible 'bidding war' scenario that I simply CBA to deal with sometimes. On most items I'll gladly accept 20% profit NOW (filling buy orders) instead of possibly getting 25-30% profit in a few days by baby sitting sell orders. Once my wallet got to a certain point I no longer wished to fight for every single last ISK on every single item and simply prefer the 'easy' way since it still makes me a really nice income.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |