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Target Painters - more useful now?

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Daftex Muleson Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.06 10:32:00 - [1] Target painters always seem to get overlooked on the EWAR field in PvP. Don't see many people yelling about their usefulness. But, as there's a lot of talk around Assault Frigs and a general shift to small ships actually being useful post speed nerf, I was just wondering if Target Painters are gonna get used more? Could we see the Hyena or the dear old Bellicose coming into their own to light up these small ships and make em easier to hit?
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:16:00 - [2] Not sure about viability of TP-bonused ships, as they have other roles usually, but TPs will get a boost, because signature factor becomes more important in turret tracking/missile damage determination, now when speeds are reduced and non-MWD ships may appear at battlefields. Only time will tell how useful they will be. I dont expect them to come into use very fast, because mein reason for them not to be used still stays - their effect cannot be seen very well ingame or in EFT. --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
NateX The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.06 11:25:00 - [3] huginns and rapiers? --
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.06 12:47:00 - [4] Target painters are used right now, for hitting fast ships, by people who know how the tracking formula works. Unfortunately that isn't too many. The changes may make target painters more useful for missile ships than they are now, but less speed (and therefore less tracking issues) is going to make them a lot less useful for turret ships. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim! Or was that the other way around?
Jerid Verges	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:22:00 - [5] I use target painters for two distinct reasons. Increase in range, and increase in targetting speed. It's good to be able to lock onto somebody almost immediatly and begin pounding away. Preferably while they're still locking. The unseen effects are also a nice bonus.
nthexwn Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Target painters are used right now, for hitting fast ships, by people who know how the tracking formula works. Unfortunately that isn't too many. So, uh, what's the tracking formula and how does it work?
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:04:00 - [7] Originally by: nthexwn So, uh, what's the tracking formula and how does it work? What it boils down to is that a TP gives a larger effective increase in tracking (for larger guns) due to the signature radius increase than a tracking computer would, making them quite useful for ships with turrets trying to hit ships that are smaller than themselves.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:15:00 - [8] I don't think this powers target painters up at all really, since they are awesome at the moment anyway. I found out when I used a passive shield tank to help a noob on blockade level 3 (in which they had managed to spawn all but the last spawn killing barely anything) and the extra damage I took from those painters... I swear none of them missed a shot.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:23:00 - [9] Originally by: nthexwn So, uh, what's the tracking formula and how does it work? This is the tracking formula. The most common misconception is that increasing signature radius only helps when shooting at smaller targets. This is false, as it is directly equivalent to a tracking bonus, except that target painters are not stacking penalized but tracking bonuses are. The next most common misconception regarding tracking is that either you can track or you can't. This is also false as you will have a wide range for your chance-to-hit, with it being balanced at 50% (not 100%) when your turrets tracking/signature matches your targets. Target painters are most effective when you already have a 30%-50% chance to hit (ie the target is the same size as your guns but moving a bit faster than you can track) as it will provide the largest absolute increase in damage output by adding >17.5% of your theoretical damage to your actual damage. If you are barely able to track (ie 4-6% chance to hit) you will see the largest relative increase (2.4x) but because you are doing less damage the increase is less noticable as you would be going from ~5% DPS to ~12% DPS.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:26:00 - [10] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 06/08/2008 16:28:05 Originally by: Matalino This is the tracking formula. The most common misconception is that increasing signature radius only helps when shooting at smaller targets. This is false, as it is directly equivalent to a tracking bonus, except that target painters are not stacking penalized but tracking bonuses are. The next most common misconception regarding tracking is that either you can track or you can't. This is also false as you will have a wide range for your chance-to-hit, with it being balanced at 50% (not 100%) when your turrets tracking/signature matches your targets. Target painters are most effective when you already have a 30%-50% chance to hit (ie the target is the same size as your guns but moving a bit faster than you can track) as it will provide the largest absolute increase in damage output by adding >17.5% of your theoretical damage to your actual damage. If you are barely able to track (ie 4-6% chance to hit) you will see the largest relative increase (2.4x) but because you are doing less damage the increase is less noticable as you would be going from ~5% DPS to ~12% DPS. And the next most common misconception is that your chance to hit is independent from hit quality. It's not: higher chance to hit = better hits. So the effect is two fold: - More hitting - Better hitting -Liang Ed: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333 for more information -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Justice Bringer Minmatar Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Meiyang Lee Originally by: nthexwn So, uh, what's the tracking formula and how does it work? What it boils down to is that a TP gives a larger effective increase in tracking (for larger guns) due to the signature radius increase than a tracking computer would, making them quite useful for ships with turrets trying to hit ships that are smaller than themselves. So therefore fitting both a Target Painter and a Tracking Computer will reap huge benefits to turret based ships if there are enough med slots to use both. Justice
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:32:00 - [12] Edited by: Matalino on 06/08/2008 16:36:47 Originally by: Liang Nuren And the next most common misconception is that your chance to hit is independent from hit quality. It's not: higher chance to hit = better hits. So the effect is two fold: - More hitting - Better hitting While I did not state that explicitly, that fact is included in my damage numbers. Originally by: Justice Bringer So therefore fitting both a Target Painter and a Tracking Computer will reap huge benefits to turret based ships if there are enough med slots to use both. In gang situations target painters are better as it benefits the entire gang, do not have stacking penalties, and with skill provide a larger bonus. In reverse one-vs-many situtations, such as mission running, tracking computers can be more effective because you do not need to reactivate a tracking computer for each target. Tracking computers also have the option via scripts to increase optimal range if that is prefered.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.06 16:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Matalino In reverse one-vs-many situtations, such as mission running, tracking computers can be more effective because you do not need to reactivate a tracking computer for each target. TP's also help your drones hit. I've found this to be a useful factoid when shooting a battleship with missiles. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:45:00 - [14] I think TPs will become less important. . . ---- GO BLUE!!
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.08.06 18:55:00 - [15] Actually, what a lot of people are seeing on SiSi is that it's now a lot easier for smaller ships to out-maneuver turrets at close range due to the web nerf. I think Target Painters will become far more useful for dealing with people flying under your nose to avoid your turrets: if they're in your face avoiding your guns, they'll be going slow so having a bigger signature radius will make them easier to hit for your fleet-mate sitting a few km away. As a general rule, for turrets, a Target Painter helps you slightly more than a similar tracking-scripted Tracking Computer in terms of hit probability and quality (assuming same skills and item quality). The Target Painter helps everyone in your gang, as opposed to everyone needing to fit a Tracking Computer, but a Tracking Computer works at any range whereas a TP has an optimal and falloff. So if you're sniping, go with the TC, if you're close-to-mid range (~70km or less), go with the TP. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
dust queen Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:48:00 - [16] wait... TPs aren't stack nerfed? i always thought they were...
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.08.06 20:58:00 - [17] Originally by: dust queen wait... TPs aren't stack nerfed? i always thought they were... They are per target, not just per painter. If you have two painters on two different targets, both get full effect. If you or even two different ships have two painters on a single target, the lesser of the two painters gets the stacking penalty. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.06 21:00:00 - [18] Let me think... when you factor in that you can put something else in that slot... No.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.08.06 21:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Bronson Hughes They are per target, not just per painter. If you have two painters on two different targets, both get full effect. If you or even two different ships have two painters on a single target, the lesser of the two painters gets the stacking penalty. Nope There is no stacking penalty for target painters, even when they are focused on the same target. I suggest that you reverify the description in the item database, or reverify the attribute in the data dump. There is no indication of stacking penalties in the target painter descriptions and the data dump lists attributeID:554 "signatureRadiusBonus" as being stacking friendly.
Daftex Muleson Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.07 07:50:00 - [20] So, it seems TP's have always been useful it's just a lot of people don't really understand how they work..... Originally by: Bronson Hughes Actually, what a lot of people are seeing on SiSi is that it's now a lot easier for smaller ships to out-maneuver turrets at close range due to the web nerf. I think Target Painters will become far more useful for dealing with people flying under your nose to avoid your turrets: if they're in your face avoiding your guns, they'll be going slow so having a bigger signature radius will make them easier to hit for your fleet-mate sitting a few km away. As a general rule, for turrets, a Target Painter helps you slightly more than a similar tracking-scripted Tracking Computer in terms of hit probability and quality (assuming same skills and item quality). The Target Painter helps everyone in your gang, as opposed to everyone needing to fit a Tracking Computer, but a Tracking Computer works at any range whereas a TP has an optimal and falloff. So if you're sniping, go with the TC, if you're close-to-mid range (~70km or less), go with the TP. Improving the chance of hitting the stuff buzzing under your nose post nerf was what I was thinking when I posted the question.....have people found that TP's actually help a lot when testing on SiSi?
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Matalino [Nope There is no stacking penalty for target painters, even when they are focused on the same target. I suggest that you reverify the description in the item database, or reverify the attribute in the data dump. There is no indication of stacking penalties in the target painter descriptions and the data dump lists attributeID:554 "signatureRadiusBonus" as being stacking friendly. If you can find a stacking penalty on target painters, file a bug report as there shouldn't be one. Very interesting. I stand corrected, and thanks for setting me straight. This will make for some...interesting experiments in the future.... -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Sonderkommando	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:43:00 - [22] So lets say I am flying a Drake, and have the option of using one SB for faster locking, or one TP.. What would benifit a missile boat more? This would be for Gang FW battles. I would think that a TP would be better, if for no other reason, to help others in Fleet with the use of the TP on target ship. How effective would it be? Thanks
eskr	Posted - 2008.08.10 07:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Jerid Verges I use target painters for two distinct reasons. Increase in range, and increase in targetting speed. It's good to be able to lock onto somebody almost immediatly and begin pounding away. Preferably while they're still locking. The unseen effects are also a nice bonus. Can you please clarify - do you mean it gives you locking time bonus? I thought target painters work for already locked target increasing the chance to shoot it, but does it give you locking speed as well?
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.08.10 10:22:00 - [24] Painters increase your damage when you are fast yourself, THAT is their main purpose. Webbers do NOT help there. They are the tool for hit and run attacks, fast in, fast locking, alpha strike (arty), fast out.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.10 10:30:00 - [25] Although a larger sig radius on a target means it can be locked faster, you have to lock it first in order to paint it, hence it doesn't really help you lock faster. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We are pleased to aim! Or was that the other way around?
adriaans Amarr Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.08.10 10:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Target painters are used right now, for hitting fast ships, by people who know how the tracking formula works. Unfortunately that isn't too many. The changes may make target painters more useful for missile ships than they are now, but less speed (and therefore less tracking issues) is going to make them a lot less useful for turret ships. this, TP's are useful, sadly i mainly fly ships with too few med slots for it :( -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.08.10 14:33:00 - [27] Target painters + artillery = respectable damage. I can hit small ships in PVE much more close to me then I could with the guns by themselves. I've used TP on destroyers to kill interceptors going 13km/s+. They do help out with tracking ALOT. They are also almost mandatory for any Arty Minnie ships. (That ain't right.)
P'uck	Posted - 2008.08.10 15:10:00 - [28] wait what? NO stacking penalty for being tp'ed? ffs! can somebody please verify that? get a corpy to paint you up and read out your sig radius for every painter. pretty please! Because zomg, this changes everything
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:26:00 - [29] Originally by: P'uck wait what? NO stacking penalty for being tp'ed? ffs! can somebody please verify that? I went back and reverified it. As I stated above the item description does not state that there is a stacking pentalty. The attribute in the item database states that there is not stacking penalty. However, there is currently a stacking penalty, both on TQ and Sisi. I filed a bug report: "We are already aware of this problem, and have added your bugreport to the existing issue in our defect tracking system." I don't know if that means that the stacking penalty is a bug or if the description/attribute flag is a bug. But in any case, until they fix it you will get the usual stacking nerf for using more than one, so there is no point using more than 3/4 target painters on a single target.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:53:00 - [30] Originally by: eskr Originally by: Jerid Verges I use target painters for two distinct reasons. Increase in range, and increase in targetting speed. It's good to be able to lock onto somebody almost immediatly and begin pounding away. Preferably while they're still locking. The unseen effects are also a nice bonus. Can you please clarify - do you mean it gives you locking time bonus? I thought target painters work for already locked target increasing the chance to shoot it, but does it give you locking speed as well? If a target painter is on your own ship (and no one else has one) it won't do anything ot affect your own lock time. If a target painter is being applied to a target you are trying to lock it decreases lock time because your ability to lock is based on a comparison of your sensor resolution and the targets signature radius. By increasing the target's signature radius you decrease the time it takes to lock. TP's are honestly fantastically useful in a variety of scenarios. The problem is, since it's a mid slot module most ships simply cannot afford to fit one (caldari are busy desperately trying to wedge tank and whatever else in there, everyone else is fairly shy on slots except minmitar ships tanking armor). Not only do the modules increase your own damage on a target (thanks to either increased tracking leading to more or better hits for a gun ship or larger signature potentially leading to better damage in a missile boat) the also have benefits for your gang (better damage, potentially faster lock times). After the nerf I don't expect I'll really see an increase in their use however - the problem of it being a mid slot module is too difficult to overcome. In all reality it seems that the module is better suited to a high slot than a mid slot given the sheer number of ships out there with utility high slots.

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