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The Carebear and the PvPer.

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Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:27:00 - [1] Eve has a big mix of PvPers and Carebears. But for some reasion you get carebears and pvpers not liking each other. The Pvpers fall into the greifer and soldier styles of categories. Again there are sub categories but I am simplyfying it. The Greifer loves hurting other players, be it suicide ganks, logon traps or whatever cheesy tactic is FOTM. Thats cool after all, since eve is harsh. The Soldier types prefer having good battles. Thats fine as well. Soldiers can be greifers and vice versa. Thats ok. Either way, most of these PvPers tend to work as a corporation, few opt for solo style. They are useally funded or subsadised by their corps. E.G Some rare moons bringing in tens of billions of isk a month can fund entire pvp corps to pvp 24/7. Basically, their are two type of carebear. The industrialist and the wallet padder. The Industrialist is the guy who does all the real industry, such as logistics, building supercaps, pimp POS chains enabling t2 component production etc etc. Ironically enough, most industral players are alts of pvpers, but not always. The wallet padder is mostly a solo style of player who mines, rats/missions and thinks he is cool because he has PElvl5 to produce a Raven from a bpc he got. He exists to chill with people but he and his friends only stays with his corp due to isk. Ultimatly, Industry is all about feeding the PvPers, since without pvpers, eve industry would become oversupplied. That does not mean industry is bad, actually the opposate - industry is very very important. The Wallet padders, however, are neither industry or Pvper. They mostly have been misled by corrupt CEO's and turned into 16th Century Japan pesents who only exist to generate tax's and resources and buid stuff to satisfy more tax income/ego of the Damiyo/CEO. Scammers who relise that contract scamming generates bad will, insted run alt corps with hundreds of wallet padders. The CEO uses social engineering to make himself super trusted. Then he uses slave labor mining ops etc The game is PvP so real industral players are in high demand. All industry feeds pvp so the better the real industry, the better the top level - i.e pvp. So the only question is, how do you convert Wallet padders into true industral players insted of slaves? Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:31:00 - [2] The proletariat must sieze the means of production! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Thule Cult	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:33:00 - [3] 2 biggest cry babies about the high sec ganker nerf... get over it and adapt...
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:47:00 - [4] You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission *****s though. - DesuSigs
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Crumplecorn You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission *****s though. Correct. In terms of a corp though, a Industral players job is to feed the corp's pvpers. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Malcanis The proletariat must sieze the means of production! Hmm… time to stock up on slave hounds.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.08 10:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Crumplecorn You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission *****s though. Correct. In terms of a corp though, a Industral players job is to feed the corp's pvpers. Even within a corp, the PvPer's real purpose is to provide demand for the Industrial players, this just cuts out the middle man. - DesuSigs
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Crumplecorn You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission *****s though. Correct. In terms of a corp though, a Industral players job is to feed the corp's pvpers. From personal experience, by far the most effective "industrial players" are merely alts of very dedicated pvpers. A friend of mine is building his own mothership from scratch...with like two other people to help him with the hauling, he pvps a huge amount, and somehow during all this he and some others supply our entire corp with combat ships through both production chains(including t2 chains) and hauling from jita. Oh and he finds the time to make isk as well(for the said mothership). I find that pvpers that want to tend to learn the industrial side extremely quickly and then proceed to find the most efficient and safe way to do them because they all hate the industrial side(but it is a necessary evil). There are some very good non-pvper alt industrial players out there. For example the various supercap builders that used to exist before motherships became unprofitable. But I'd say the majority are alts of pvpers. The true carebear is the mission runner that sits in highsec bragging how pimp his CNR is in noob corp chat(not to be confused with the L4 farmers that are pvper's alts). There's a lot of those, they're the ones that tend to get ganked and then run to the forums and cry, and who I consider the most worthless section of the eve population.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Gamesguy From personal experience, by far the most effective "industrial players" are merely alts of very dedicated pvpers. True. So the question is how you turn the Wallet Padders, basically players who are slaves but do not relise it, into proper industral players? Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Crumplecorn You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission *****s though. Correct. In terms of a corp though, a Industral players job is to feed the corp's pvpers. Even within a corp, the PvPer's real purpose is to provide demand for the Industrial players, this just cuts out the middle man. I disagree. A pvper's objective is to do what pvpers do. The Demand for the industrial players, or should I say the supply from industrial players is the limiting factor. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)

N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Gamesguy There's a lot of those, they're the ones that tend to get ganked and then run to the forums and cry, and who I consider the most worthless section of the eve population. /signed
SuicidalMerchant Republic University	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:32:00 - [12] I havent actually known any ratters like that. As a bit of a JOAT I never really consider myself to be in any particular crowd. However 1 thing I noticed as a miner was that pvpers were in their own way bigger carebears than I was. Their risk was usually lower and their isk higher. I think it would be wise all around to just remove the stupid pubescent stigma from things all together and focus on the end product. No more "care bear" (cmon, even the name just screams some angsty 14yo who is upset that the stupid rich guy wont acknowledge him) or "griefer". Lets call em as they are. Fighers, workers, and all the slobs in between. A worker might mine, haul or rat. A fighter might roam, camp or participate in fleet. What really matters is effort, dedication, and determination. If he works hard at what he does, for a reasonable goal and he is reaching those milestones, cheers to him. If he is a tool that wants ultrasafe highsec, ultrasafe gank or whatever else where they want the difficulty of a single player game but the notoriety of a multiplayer one, then be discriminatory.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Crumplecorn You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission *****s though. Correct. In terms of a corp though, a Industral players job is to feed the corp's pvpers. Even within a corp, the PvPer's real purpose is to provide demand for the Industrial players, this just cuts out the middle man. I disagree. A pvper's objective is to do what pvpers do. The Demand for the industrial players, or should I say the supply from industrial players is the limiting factor. An Industrialist's objective is to do what Industrialists do. The demand for the industrial players, or should I say the supply needed by the PvPers, is the limiting factor. - DesuSigs
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:50:00 - [14] Your descriptions are not very good, lots of people do a mix of the things in your list, spltting up the different playstyles in categories shouldnt be done.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Your descriptions are not very good, lots of people do a mix of the things in your list, spltting up the different playstyles in categories shouldnt be done. The only relevant thing is the Wallet Padder. I already said people mix things, but wallet padders tend to be unique. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:56:00 - [16] Mission runners bring all the ISK into the game to begin with, I also wonder where shiny faction mods and ammo come from if not from the LP store.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:02:00 - [17] yes and the mission runners bring in too much money into the game.
Kane LeBaiton Gallente Order of the Red Dragon	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo True. So the question is how you turn the Wallet Padders, basically players who are slaves but do not relise it, into proper industral players? You take them under your wing and gently convince them to learn how to PvP. Then, following your description, let nature take it's course
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Steve Hawkings Your descriptions are not very good, lots of people do a mix of the things in your list, spltting up the different playstyles in categories shouldnt be done. The only relevant thing is the Wallet Padder. I already said people mix things, but wallet padders tend to be unique. ah yes sry, still earlier for me.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:10:00 - [20] The problem is the gankers in EVE hide behind game mechaninics which in turn encourages carebears to simply avoid them and remain care bears. Concords role should be reduced to only responding to fights - let gankers go anywhere. But the game should be changed so that anyone with a rep as a ganker is a free target to non-ganker players everywhere. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.

Vladimir Griftin	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo True. So the question is how you turn the Wallet Padders, basically players who are slaves but do not relise it, into proper industral players? Its just the way some people play the game, its a really narrow playfield. To basically just work your way up the ship ladder, run missions to pay for the skillbooks and stupidly expensive faction modules. Its the people who come from accumulation fest type games where they see themselves getting more powerful as they acquire wealth and skills. Unfortunately EVE doesn't work like that and 'Wallet Padders' are rock bottom of the social pile. There's so much more to the game that sadly these people will never see. The moment they lose their CNR it took 2 months to buy they will come to the forums, whine and then quit. I'd say the best way of getting people out of that mindset is to tell them to fully fit out 20 T1 cruisers. Go out and get killed a lot, once you get used to that, your ready to play EVE properly.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:32:00 - [22] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 08/08/2008 12:31:51 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Malcanis The proletariat must sieze the means of production! Hmmà time to stock up on slave hounds. Yes, and send a missive to Comrade God. San Matari Official forums
KhaniKirai	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:43:00 - [23] Also Carebears: -These pvp-ers, that are too attached to their ships, so they never engage or dare to fight out, as soon as the numbers get near even. -These pvp alliances, that are not bothering to put up own stations and defending themself, but instead just keep roaming around for easy kill. They think they are pretty hot pvp-ers, but instead they are just a bunch of weak lazy cowards. They hide in npc stations and low sec, since they cant defend something of their own :D -pvp-ers, 0.0 players, that instead of joining up with smaller alliances, instead pick the BIG ones, so they are basically protected due to the massive amount of members. These carebears are strengthening the problems of the super alliances.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:10:00 - [24] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 08/08/2008 13:12:58 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Originally by: Crumplecorn You are confused on one aspect. The PvPers exist to remove materials from the market, so the people at the top level (the industrial people) have a more dynamic market to play with, with genuine demand to counter their supply. Agreed on the mission ***s though. Correct. In terms of a corp though, a Industral players job is to feed the corp's pvpers. From personal experience, by far the most effective "industrial players" are merely alts of very dedicated pvpers. A friend of mine is building his own mothership from scratch...with like two other people to help him with the hauling, he pvps a huge amount, and somehow during all this he and some others supply our entire corp with combat ships through both production chains(including t2 chains) and hauling from jita. Oh and he finds the time to make isk as well(for the said mothership). I find that pvpers that want to tend to learn the industrial side extremely quickly and then proceed to find the most efficient and safe way to do them because they all hate the industrial side(but it is a necessary evil). There are some very good non-pvper alt industrial players out there. For example the various supercap builders that used to exist before motherships became unprofitable. But I'd say the majority are alts of pvpers. The true carebear is the mission runner that sits in highsec bragging how pimp his CNR is in noob corp chat(not to be confused with the L4 farmers that are pvper's alts). There's a lot of those, they're the ones that tend to get ganked and then run to the forums and cry, and who I consider the most worthless section of the eve population. Question about your friends: When he goes outside does he say "Damn, the star in this system is awfully bright!". To do all of what you described sounds like he's got my available time to play this game beat 5:1. In BoB** the industrial player's job is to feed the PvPers, and yeah, they're mostly alts. Bob is a PvP entity. Stands to reason. My little corp mostly builds stuff and trades. If any PvP gets done mostly for fun. To your corp PvP and imposing your will through PvP means everything, to my corp it's a diversion. Your scorecard is little dots on the map with your alliance color on them. My scorecard is the corp wallet. I think we're both doing OK. You live in no-security 0.0 space, which is in-line with your in game goals and style of play. I live in high-security empire space, which suits mine. If you came to empire it would suck for you. If I went to 0.0 with my little corp it would suck for me. I couldn't do what BoB does. Don't have a big enough organization. Don't have the time to build one. Wouldn't have the inclination (like your friend does) to PvP like a mad-man AND supply a corp with ships AND build my own super-cap. I just don't play that much. I still have fun playing the game though for the 5-10 hours a week that I play. I'm not going to charge out and try to claim 0.0 space. That would be foolish, given that I'm just not that dedicated to game play. That's the point, I think. There's room in the game for me. There's room in the game for BoB. I play EvE because that's so. To the OP, excuse me for saying so, but I think that trying to stratify the different types of players in a game as if it meant anything is a little juvenile. If it's fun, you play, if it isn't (hopefully) you don't. If I "don't like" Pirates/Griefers/PvPers it's because they're trying to take or blow up what I spent my game time trying to build up. It's a legimate conflict of interest.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:12:00 - [25] Id say a higher percentage of PvPers who are also Carebears is much higher than the percentage of Carebears who are PvPers. Which kind of bends the idea that Carebears and PvPers are somehow different in Eve. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Vladimir Griftin	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine My scorecard is the corp wallet. You feel that way now, but once you have masses of ISK and the means to make more easily. Then what do you do?
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:31:00 - [27] Originally by: KhaniKirai Also Carebears: -These pvp-ers, that are too attached to their ships, so they never engage or dare to fight out, as soon as the numbers get near even. -These pvp alliances, that are not bothering to put up own stations and defending themself, but instead just keep roaming around for easy kill. They think they are pretty hot pvp-ers, but instead they are just a bunch of weak lazy cowards. They hide in npc stations and low sec, since they cant defend something of their own :D -pvp-ers, 0.0 players, that instead of joining up with smaller alliances, instead pick the BIG ones, so they are basically protected due to the massive amount of members. These carebears are strengthening the problems of the super alliances. TRI PL BOB anyone? lol
K'uata Sayus Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:33:00 - [28] Most players pay the monthly fee and do what they want. They use the game for fun, relaxation, and a way to phychologically compensate for aspects they are missing (or not getting enough of) in RL. They don't owe anything to other players unless they want to interact with them for comraderie and shared goals. The game for them becomes more complex due to the intricacies of human interaction. If you want to simplify this into box-like categories so that you feel comfortable, then fine. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Vladimir Griftin Originally by: Somealt Ofmine My scorecard is the corp wallet. You feel that way now, but once you have masses of ISK and the means to make more easily. Then what do you do? I already do pretty well. It's a good question, tbh. We're inventing and building jump freighters now, so we've hit the top of the T2 ladder. We can build carriers and dreads but it doesn't look like there's much money in it right now even though we've researched up our blueprints to the optimum. I'd love to get back out to 0.0 one of these days, but every time I read about staring at the login screen for an hour in the middle of a fleet fight and locked up UIs and 15 minute module activations I remember how much I hated that and just renew my my office rental here in Lonetrek. We thought about doing FW, but we figured we'd end up hurting some 13 year old's feelings and being war decced from now on. Not worth the aggrevation. So, we'll just keep flying under the radar, building stuff, running a mission here and there, and piling up the cash. Maybe one of these days they'll fix their broken "end game" and we'll wanna play.


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