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Is EVE too binary (things are on/off) ?

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AltBier Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.08.08 11:59:00 - [1] An example would be cloaking ... you are either undetectable or completely visible. Compare this with a WWII submarine, which was hard to detect but not impossible (and varying depending on how deep/slow/big the sub was). Another example is Warp Disruption ... you can either get away or you are stuck there with no chance of escape (while disrupted). Thoughts? (btw - I'll be ignoring trolls)
Martin Mckenna D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:00:00 - [2] Yes and No ---------------------------------------------
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:02:00 - [3] I think binary beats random tbh, The less unpredictability, the better imo.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:05:00 - [4] Originally by: heheheh I think binary beats random tbh Exactly what I was going to say. - DesuSigs
Wild Rho Amarr Silent Core	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:09:00 - [5] Originally by: heheheh I think binary beats random tbh, The less unpredictability, the better imo. Exactly. Adding random chance nullifies any player ability or strategy as the outcome is ultimately decided by a virtual dice.
Asestorian Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:24:00 - [6] The unpredictability comes from the players. Random chance would only be needed when facing NPCs because they are themselves entirely predictable. In PvP, you have enough on your plate trying to read and predict your opponent's moves, without having to worry about whether your warp disruptor has managed to turn on or not. Also, why are you comparing it to a World War II submarine? Even comparing cloaking in EVE to modern submarines would be ridiculous. --- Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:32:00 - [7] What if there was control instead of randomness? Ignoring any difficulty in managing the UI or programming it, thinking purely theoretically, what about if you had a slider to determine where a module was performing on the scale? If you had a cloak slider based on sensor strength vs calibration delay? (set it low and you'll be visible on the overview, lockable...etc to some ships but when you're ready to strike your lock time is significantly reduced) What if you had a slider on your Disruptor giving you 0.1 to 1 points for cap benefits and every ship had a core stabalisation slider giving them 0 to 0.9 warp core containment for recharge (or some other attribute). If both ships run at minimum the status quo remains, if both ships run at maximum similarly - but if the tackler can reduce his scramble to save cap without the target realising (or vice versa) then the binary feel can be obfuscated (if not actually removed). -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Wild Rho Exactly. Adding random chance nullifies any player ability or strategy as the outcome is ultimately decided by a virtual dice. Just disagreeing with this, random luck is a part of your skill(for the lack of a better word). we are recruiting!
AltBier Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:41:00 - [9] Edited by: AltBier on 08/08/2008 12:42:34 Edited by: AltBier on 08/08/2008 12:41:55 Originally by: Jacob Holland If you had a cloak slider based on sensor strength vs calibration delay? (set it low and you'll be visible on the overview, lockable...etc to some ships but when you're ready to strike your lock time is significantly reduced) What if you had a slider on your Disruptor giving you 0.1 to 1 points for cap benefits and every ship had a core stabalisation slider giving them 0 to 0.9 warp core containment for recharge (or some other attribute). That's kind of what I meant, though it would be better if these things were automatic. The whole 'everything is visible on the overview' is also something which could be looked at. It's not possible to hide in an asteroid field at all unless you are cloaked. Originally by: heheheh I think binary beats random tbh, The less unpredictability, the better imo. Oh I agree, it would be silly to make these things randomly on/off. I really don't know where this 'randomness' idea comes from - certainly not me. Originally by: Asestorian Also, why are you comparing it to a World War II submarine? Even comparing cloaking in EVE to modern submarines would be ridiculous. How so? The point of subs is that they are hard to detect and can go unnoticed.
Wild Rho Amarr Silent Core	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Inertial Originally by: Wild Rho Exactly. Adding random chance nullifies any player ability or strategy as the outcome is ultimately decided by a virtual dice. Just disagreeing with this, random luck is a part of your skill(for the lack of a better word). No it isn't. Random luck is exactly that, it has nothing to do with skill.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:47:00 - [11] Binary beats randomness, true... but GRADUAL beats binary too. The finer the grain of both cause and effect, the better it is. Webs ? They were a problem. CCP decided to nerf their effect. What they should have done is add falloff to webs, but not a chance-based webbed/not-webbed falloff, instead an effectiveness falloff (the deeper into falloff, the smaller the effect). Scrams ? Right now, there's two things wrong. First one is the "infiniscram" that comes from bubbles and targetted warp scrambling, the second one is the way regular scrambling works against WCSs. Personally, I believe the entire warp mechanic and scrambling mechanic should be reworked so that alignment no longer matters at all, instead have a "warp core charge level". Each ship would have a different warp core charge time, WCS would increase it by a percentage, scramblers would decrease it by a percentage - the only difference scrams and WCSs have is how fast you get into warp. ALTERNATIVELY, the change could be dependant on capacitor status (not charging at all under X% capacitor, charging normally at Y% or above capacitor)... so that you could hold somebody indefinitely, but a scram wouldn't be enough... instead, you'd also need some neutralizing... otherwise, you're just delaying the escape. Warp core charge level would be displayed for locked targets like shield/armor/hull is, but with a different colour. Cloaking ? Well... same thing here, but with a twist. Think of a "cloak detection threat" counter, individual for each and every non-cloaked ship nearby, visible only for the cloaked ship. The detection threat rises depending on detector's sensor strength, scan resolution and distance to cloaked ship, plus cloaked ship's radius and cloak type used. If somebody detects you, it DOESN'T decloak you, you appear on HIS overview, and his overview alone. Having you locked will increase the detection rate for all HIS allied/ganged ships. You STILL are cloaked for all others, and you can't shoot. The only way to decloak you instantly for all others is to target-paint you. And so on. _ THE APPRENTICE \|\| mineral balance \|\| nanofix
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Inertial Luck = Skill Your newsletter, I must subscribe! - DesuSigs
AltBier Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Webs ? They were a problem. CCP decided to nerf their effect. What they should have done is add falloff to webs, but not a chance-based webbed/not-webbed falloff, instead an effectiveness falloff (the deeper into falloff, the smaller the effect). Yes, thank you, that's exactly the kind of things I mean.
Asestorian Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:53:00 - [14] Originally by: AltBier Originally by: Asestorian Also, why are you comparing it to a World War II submarine? Even comparing cloaking in EVE to modern submarines would be ridiculous. How so? The point of subs is that they are hard to detect and can go unnoticed. I realise this. The point is that EVE isn't real life. It's very much a game. Not to mention that we're somewhat further into the future in a fictional universe. It's not entirely unreasonable that a technology exists that makes us both invisible to the naked eye and to all scanning and detecting equipment. Real world examples aren't usually the best things to use in the context of a space game set many thousands of years into the future. --- Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
AltBier Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.08.08 12:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Asestorian It's not entirely unreasonable that a technology exists that makes us both invisible to the naked eye and to all scanning and detecting equipment. It is however unreasonable to assume that no counter measures have been developed.
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:04:00 - [16] Originally by: AltBier An example would be cloaking ... you are either undetectable or completely visible. Compare this with a WWII submarine, which was hard to detect but not impossible (and varying depending on how deep/slow/big the sub was). Another example is Warp Disruption ... you can either get away or you are stuck there with no chance of escape (while disrupted). Thoughts? (btw - I'll be ignoring trolls) ECM is random and it sucks when the ranomd is against you. better to have binary :P ---------------------------------- Fighting for Minmatar o7 Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:07:00 - [17] Logging in is too binary. Except on those days when it is chance based. - DesuSigs
Face Palmer Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:20:00 - [18] Subs need to be nerfed TBQFH. That BBQ sauce gives a base +10 tastyness which is way to unbalanced IMHO. CCP NERF BBQ SAUCE NOW!!1!!!11!!ELEVENTYCAPS!!
Asestorian Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.08.08 13:42:00 - [19] Originally by: AltBier Originally by: Asestorian Real world examples aren't usually the best things to use in the context of a space game set many thousands of years into the future. I'd hoped it was clear that I was talking about envisaged game play behaviour. Well, no, it wasn't. But that could just because I've spent too long on these forums and I can no longer tell the difference between all the people who insist that things should change in EVE because real life doesn't work like that, which tend to be ridiculously stupid and bad ideas, and just using real life as an example as how you would like things to work because it's the most obvious and easiest thing to understand --- Quote: EVE is unfair by design.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:24:00 - [20] Not really, in 0.0 my weapons are either on, off or blinking/lagging. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Draeca The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:26:00 - [21] 01001110 01101111 00101110 ___
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Inertial Originally by: Wild Rho Exactly. Adding random chance nullifies any player ability or strategy as the outcome is ultimately decided by a virtual dice. Just disagreeing with this, random luck is a part of your skill(for the lack of a better word). Luckbased abilities are horrible. They tend to be overpowered with good luck and underpowered with bad. But most players only remember the times you had good luck. Wow is a good example of why this is bad. Many classes can with good luck kill you in 2 seconds with lucky crits/procs in a way that is impossible for you to stop. Then the same class with bad luck is a very easy kill. Vote against the nano nerf!
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:31:00 - [23] I love how eve is not as luck based, such as in other mmos.
Viqtoria Caldari Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Martin Mckenna Yes and No Please keep your signature on-topic.
Xevan Templar 7th Batavian Squadron	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:37:00 - [25] Originally by: Esmenet Wow is a good example of why this is bad. Many classes can with good luck kill you in 2 seconds with lucky crits/procs in a way that is impossible for you to stop. Then the same class with bad luck is a very easy kill. One of the best examples would be the old fashon shaman (before BC) and the Retri-paladin, infamously known as the casino-din or 'hit and prayadin' to name a few. 01001001 00100000 01110000 01110010 01100101 01100110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00001101 00001010
Ammon Skycloud Caldari Matari Research Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.08 14:49:00 - [26] Originally by: AltBier An example would be cloaking ... you are either undetectable or completely visible. Compare this with a WWII submarine, which was hard to detect but not impossible (and varying depending on how deep/slow/big the sub was). Another example is Warp Disruption ... you can either get away or you are stuck there with no chance of escape (while disrupted). Thoughts? (btw - I'll be ignoring trolls) It seems people need to be remined about this every now and again. 1. EVE != Real Life (transalation for non geeks, EVE is not real life) 2. EVE is Thousands of years in the future, we've gotten really good at doing things, i.e things allways work, no misfiring guns, no malfunctioning cloaks, no sputtering engines etc.
AltBier Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.08.08 18:00:00 - [27] Ok, just in case some people have somehow missed it ... I am NOT suggesting more randomness and I am NOT suggesting unreliable equipment.
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.08.08 18:01:00 - [28] actualy it is thing are off , on and OMG BURNING UP BECAUSE IT OVERLOADING Quote: down near the station bio mass plant you can buy burgers that are 5% pork and 95% CRAP

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