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Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:36:00 - [1] Yeah, it's another lag post. I am not trying to whine here, no, I've not recently lost a ship to lag, I am trying to spark a positive, constructive dialog on the lag issues that exist in game. CCP, please explain this to me. A lot of effort has been put into making EVE an truly immersive experience. A lot of work was done on many fronts to achieve this objective. The EVE Chronicles, the trailers, Faction Warfare. This has provided a lot of content. So, when I read posts on the forums for people complaining about loosing a ship due to lag in a system with less than 100 people in the whole constellation and their petition was reimbursed for: "Engaging in activity that is well documented to be lag intensive is not a valid reason for ship replacement", Please explain to me how that is am immersive experience? We should not engage in activities within the game using out of game knowledge concerning lag? Last time I checked, that kind of activity was called meta gaming and it takes away from the game environment. When you have to alter your game play to account for shortcoming in a game, such as fixable lag, it just makes things less enjoyable. It takes away from all the hard work that you, CCP, have put into this fine game. Lag is a serious problem that needs immediate attention with immediate positive results for all types of play within EVE, including and not limited to missioning, solo, small gang and large fleet PvP. When you invest time and money in a decent gaming machine as I have, that being a Dell XPS 720 quad core, 4 gigs of ram, 500 gig drive, 512 meg video card and a 8 mbit internet connection), you would think that running a single classic game client would not see a lot of lag, but that's not the case. Please CCP, show us all what is actively being done to address lag in the game. I've been playing for over 2 years now and I would like to continue to play and enjoy the game. /rant off
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:38:00 - [2] just HAD to make another thread didn't you, because it was more constructive right? you know we are just going to drag it down to the depths and use it for out own amusement right? YARR forum piracy is me life Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Ga''len on 10/08/2008 18:45:17 Originally by: Tortun Nahme just HAD to make another thread didn't you, because it was more constructive right? you know we are just going to drag it down to the depths and use it for out own amusement right? YARR forum piracy is me life Yeah, I figured that you all would do that and to be honest, if that's entertaining for you, by all means, I won't stop you. I won't tell you to not do something that by the nature of the game (forum posting is the game in this example) should not be done because it causes lag, even though forums posting is a normal part of this game. All the others changes to this game (Nos, Nano, suicide ganking, etc...), only seem to come about when there are post upon post and thread upon thread either actively, positively discussing the issue or thread after thread of whines. So please, post away and let's get this lag issue resolved.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:44:00 - [4] Crumplecorn should make a new sig: "By clicking this you agree to unconsentual lag" ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:45:00 - [5] but you can tell me that that any resulting loss (ban, being a loss of time) for doing it, will not be reimbursed Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:46:00 - [6] Originally by: Tortun Nahme but you can tell me that that any resulting loss (ban, being a loss of time) for doing it, will not be reimbursed Well, I can tell you that I won't ban you for it, as you are contributing to the thread in a positive way, that being keeping it alive to attract attention to the original post's issue.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:48:00 - [7] but the moment they see my involvement they will ignore the op and enjoy the rambling I've trained derailment up to level 5 XD it took months and months of sitting at the screen watching the skill points add up to do it and I'm not about to let it all be in vain Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:02:00 - [8] LOL. Seriously, what are your thoughts on the lag issues we have been encountering?
Galvatine	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Ga'len LOL. Seriously, what are your thoughts on the lag issues we have been encountering? My thoughts are stay out of high traffic systems and dont expect CCP to reimburse something that is simply impossible to verify (ship loss caused by lag). There are many things that can wrong betwix keyboard and server (and as this post proves, many things that can wrong between chair and keyboard too), and not all of them are under CCPs control
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Ga'len When you invest time and money in a decent gaming machine as I have, that being a Dell XPS 720 quad core, 4 gigs of ram, 500 gig drive, 512 meg video card and a 8 mbit internet connection), you would think that running a single classic game client would not see a lot of lag, but that's not the case. /rant off no you'd think that, anyone who knows anything about puters wouldnt.... Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Touc hmebits Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:12:00 - [11] Originally by: NeoTheo Originally by: Ga'len When you invest time and money in a decent gaming machine as I have, that being a Dell XPS 720 quad core, 4 gigs of ram, 500 gig drive, 512 meg video card and a 8 mbit internet connection), you would think that running a single classic game client would not see a lot of lag, but that's not the case. /rant off no you'd think that, anyone who knows anything about puters wouldnt.... ROFL :)
gimboled	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Galvatine Originally by: Ga'len LOL. Seriously, what are your thoughts on the lag issues we have been encountering? My thoughts are stay out of high traffic systems and dont expect CCP to reimburse something that is simply impossible to verify (ship loss caused by lag). There are many things that can wrong betwix keyboard and server (and as this post proves, many things that can wrong between chair and keyboard too), and not all of them are under CCPs control This tbh, whoÆs to say that Qtrl and Q was not pressed while scrammed in a mission by rats, accidents happen and all that.....
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:15:00 - [13] Lags have long hair and live in Tibet.
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Drunk Driver Lags have long hair and live in Tibet. I think that's Yaks, not Lags. Lag monsters may have long hair, but since the client sometimes doesn't see the screen refresh, you can't see them.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:19:00 - [15] man, I was hoping this thread would shine some light on how the internet works. Little things like how fast your pc can send info to the router/router to several ISP servers which are being used by several million people/ISP to CCP's mainframe which is logging in info of everything that those 100 people are doing/ back to ISP's/ back to you. Now if we were all having a LAN party directly connected to CCP's mainframe then that would be the ****znit.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Ga'len Originally by: Drunk Driver Lags have long hair and live in Tibet. I think that's Yaks, not Lags. Lag monsters may have long hair, but since the client sometimes doesn't see the screen refresh, you can't see them. Sir, I think you are correct. Thanks for the update!
Pindleskin Amarr Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich man, I was hoping this thread would shine some light on how the internet works. Little things like how fast your pc can send info to the router/router to several ISP servers which are being used by several million people/ISP to CCP's mainframe which is logging in info of everything that those 100 people are doing/ back to ISP's/ back to you. Now if we were all having a LAN party directly connected to CCP's mainframe then that would be the ****znit. It should not work, really think about it... imagin if there was no NET, and all the heads of countries sat down and said, i know lets make the internet... IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN lol Just be glad we have what we have, and yeah sometimes u might lose an internet spaceship.. not really anyones fault other than the owner. P. ----this----
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:31:00 - [18] Lag is a technical thing. It'd be great if the servers never lagged, but sadly, that isn't the case. There are some fairly fundamental problems regarding lag, the transmission and processing of data for a large number of people in a single area. You'll note a first person shooter such as counterstrike will start to lag when you get more than about 30 players in the same map / same server / same area. Maybe more, maybe less depending on the game The analogy is that of a ship. It is fine to have 2000 ppl on board, unless they all decide to suddenly rush to one side of the ship, in which case it capsizes You can't make the ship "bigger" unless you rebuild it. You can't have less people on board and you can't really force them all into separate areas or constantly traffic manage them to stop them tipping the ship _______ People like that don't have friends just temporary common interests.
Galvatine	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Lag is a technical thing. It'd be great if the servers never lagged, but sadly, that isn't the case. There are some fairly fundamental problems regarding lag, the transmission and processing of data for a large number of people in a single area. You'll note a first person shooter such as counterstrike will start to lag when you get more than about 30 players in the same map / same server / same area. Maybe more, maybe less depending on the game The analogy is that of a ship. It is fine to have 2000 ppl on board, unless they all decide to suddenly rush to one side of the ship, in which case it capsizes You can't make the ship "bigger" unless you rebuild it. You can't have less people on board and you can't really force them all into separate areas or constantly traffic manage them to stop them tipping the ship QFT
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:34:00 - [20] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 16:35:29 If people are happy enough to accept crippling server side lag that make fleet 0.0 compleatly useless, then whats the incentive on improving it? Lag is so random that anything from 2v2 to 20v20 to 200v200 can bog down to hell. Its a node lottry and if oyu get stuck on a node with a mission runner system, then you are stuffed even if its a 10v10. As per real life, whatever people are willing to accept the pain of, it always gets fixed last, if at all ever. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:35:00 - [21] Good going. Keep the threadnaught rolling. I don't think we should gripe about anything else until it's fixed. It's definately worse than it was a year ago. You never used to see significant lag in a system with ~100 in local. Now you do, and it's pretty consistant, so I don't think it can all be attributed to nodes being shared with some place where there's a fleet fight going on. I suppose the little skirmishes going on all over the place with FW could be contributing. As someone else here who seems to know what he's talking about said, there probably isn't a solution short of a ground-up rewrite of the server code. It never should have been implemented in a single-threaded language (Python). That has probably become an architectural limitation that, short of a complete rewrite, isn't fixable. The only fix is a massive overhaul of the sov mechanics that will require fleets to spread out and engage 50v50 or so over multiple systems simultaneously to succeed. You can't think of it in terms of constraints (limiting fleet size) you have to do it with incentive (i.e. attacking multiple systems at the same time is the optimal strategy). Until this happens, the thing to do IMO is just opt out. Run missions, build stuff, get rich, and bide your time until it gets addressed.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 11/08/2008 16:38:20 Originally by: Pindleskin imagin if there was no NET Don't have to cause I used to live in that time period. Back in the day when kids actually went outside. Originally by: Pindleskin Just be glad we have what we have, and yeah sometimes u might lose an internet spaceship.. not really anyones fault other than the owner. P. I've had cases of lag myself but I tend to use my head when it comes to these things. Like using a L4 Agent NOT in the triangle of doom, avoiding Jita like the festering cest pool it is, and so on. Though in my case it's my crappy ISP. I'm switching to cable this friday and will be doing a dance of joy as I tell my current ISP to **** off.
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:37:00 - [23] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 16:38:41 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Good going. Keep the threadnaught rolling. I don't think we should gripe about anything else until it's fixed. It's definately worse than it was a year ago. You never used to see significant lag in a system with ~100 in local. Now you do, and it's pretty consistant, so I don't think it can all be attributed to nodes being shared with some place where there's a fleet fight going on. I suppose the little skirmishes going on all over the place with FW could be contributing. As someone else here who seems to know what he's talking about said, there probably isn't a solution short of a ground-up rewrite of the server code. It never should have been implemented in a single-threaded language (Python). That has probably become an architectural limitation that, short of a complete rewrite, isn't fixable. The only fix is a massive overhaul of the sov mechanics that will require fleets to spread out and engage 50v50 or so over multiple systems simultaneously to succeed. You can't think of it in terms of constraints (limiting fleet size) you have to do it with incentive (i.e. attacking multiple systems at the same time is the optimal strategy). Until this happens, the thing to do IMO is just opt out. Run missions, build stuff, get rich, and bide your time until it gets addressed. The problem in the past was if you got stuck on a 0.0 fleet battle node, you were stuffed. Even if there was 1 in local you got hit with fleet lag. Since FW, you now have hundreds of smaller battles and CCP lacks teh nodes to deal with it, so 10v10 can give superlag to everyon ein local. Its all a gamble now. Complain, Complain and complain until its fixed. Just like real life, unless you complain, it will never get looked at as importantly as other things. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo If people are happy enough to accept crippling server side lag that make fleet 0.0 compleatly useless, then whats the incentive on improving it? As per real life, whatever people are willing to accept the pain of, it always gets fixed last, if at all ever. It's just that some people's ego is greater than their desire for fun. I don't think that anyone could argue that fleet fights, as they exist now, are fun, so engaging in them comes down to ego. I can manage the mechanics of unplayable lag better than you can, so I win?? I think it's obvious that for some Eve has become more than a game, or, as you're suggesting, nobody would put up with this.
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:38:00 - [25] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now if we were all having a LAN party directly connected to CCP's mainframe then that would be the ****znit. That would be awesome. In response to your first part of your post, I won't even attempt to explain the complexities of a MMORPG's networking interfaces and controls. I simply do not understand them. A LAN however and LAN party games that are very intensive, I do understand. Put simply, a network game running on a LAN is a lot like a fleets of ships in the real world ocean. That fleet will only move as fast as the slowest ship. So, a frigate would have to steam along as slow as the transport ship in the fleet. LAN games and I suspect EVE, encounter the same issue, possibly something like this: Client A updates server Client B updates server Client C updates server Client D updates server Server updates client A Server updates client B Server waits on client B Server waits on client B Server waits on client B Server waits on client B Server waits on client B Server times out connection to client B Server updates client C Server updates client D In this example, Client A has loaded grid and everyone else has to wait until client B either acknowledges the server update or times out. Now image this on a larger scale, a 30 vs 30 gang fight. It's easy to understand how the lag happens. It would be nice if some devs would post here explaining how the server side code handles the client communications. Those protocols may be the whole issue, but we have no way of knowing as we have not heard anything positive from CCP yet on this lovely issue.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo The problem in the past was if you got stuck on a 0.0 fleet battle node, you were stuffed. Even if there was 1 in local you got hit with fleet lag. Since FW, you now have hundreds of smaller battles and CCP lacks teh nodes to deal with it, so 10v10 can give superlag. Its all a gamble now. Spot on. You can see this looking at the map with stats. Lots of little skirmishes all over the place now, so the lag pain is being felt all over the place, not just on the "unlucky" nodes.
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:45:00 - [27] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Its a node lottry That's my new favorite phrase for lag issues. Thanx, that really made my day. Yeah, it's a pain, 10 people in system and modules take over 60 seconds to activate and yet, those sentry guns don't miss a beat, do they?
Ga'len Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Spurty Hmm this is correct, just want to add that many of the packets are 'heavily fragmented' delaying the ack/nak/drop/resend cycle. I have no idea if this is correct, but you may agree, the example does fit the symptoms, doesn't it?
Galvatine	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:51:00 - [29] Its not correct im afraid
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:51:00 - [30] Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 16:52:54 Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 11/08/2008 16:52:07 Server Admin: We need better and newer servers. These blades dont cut it anymore Finance guy: Hmm, that would effect my bonus this year. How busy are the servers Server Admin: Well... out of 100 nodes, 12 are full and the rest are around 20-30% Finance guy: Well, players seem happy to deal with the lag. Come back when its a problem. Till then, I got to put a deposit on my new boat....... Thats the issue right here guys. As long as players are happy to live in lag, then only a stupid Company would make it a priority to fix. A Doctor would heal the most dangerous would first. I do not beleive CCP are aware how bad a issue lag is simply because 80% of the eve population base are happy to accept crippling lag. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)

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