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What would you do to change the wardec system?

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Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:31:00 - [31] Right now wardecs are indeed pay to grief. Pay 2 million isk and you can shoot members of the mining/mission running corp unlimitted (oh i am sure you do it to make eve economy better). Changing the basic of wardeccing however will also probably remove possibility to wardec others in a normal war (where the not normal war is shooting defenseless miners). Best solution imo: Make a build-in possibility in eve to let a merc corp join the war on your side. This should cost the corp that went them on their side when wardecced a small monthly fee + additional cost per enemy ship destroyed.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:33:00 - [32] Originally by: Duby 1 Because they would just make an alt and play it. 2 You cant force anyone who doesnt want pvp to pvp No, but you can force them to become a victim of PvP whether they want it or not. That's one of Eve's trademarks.
Reza Pluss Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:33:00 - [33] Make Crumplecorn's great suggestion a bit more complex: CONCORD wants (as per the dev blog) to make the security level of the system and the person more important when they respond to incidents. Therefore: * Have an average security rating for the corporation * Make the per-ship cost to attacker take into account the two corps' ratings. A -4 vs -4 corp would cost very little per ship, a +2 vs +2 corp would cost more, and a -4 vs +2 corp would cost a huge amount. * Make the per-ship cost to attacker take into account the system's security rating. CONCORD doesn't want wars in 1.0 space, therefore make the cost per ship even more. * If the corp doesn't have the funds to pay the per-ship bills, suspend the war and reduce their sec even further. Hopefully this would reduce the "idle but too cowardly to go into low/0.0" pirate corps in highsec problem.
Duby	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:34:00 - [34] And thats why a lot of people stay in the npc corp. Nothing like starting a new corp and getting wardec by an older corp with 100+ members
Lt Angus Caldari Lt Angus Corp	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:36:00 - [35] unlimited free wardecs Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:37:00 - [36] 1. Increase the cost of creating a corporation significantly (at least 100 million ISK) 2. Allow the defenders a one-time bribe of CONCORD (~50 million) to postpone the beginning of the war for 1 week 3. Create a tangible means for displaying how a corporation can win a war - whenever the corporation starts the war they set out objectives, including: -ISK destroyed -Ships destroyed (by type) -Membership reduced (% or #) -Closing of corporation -Removal of offices 4. When a corporation completes all their objectives or retracts the war without completing them, it can be displayed from the corporate show-info screen as medals. Gives victors bragging rights but also lets a defending corporation shame their opponents by denying them objectives. 5. Allow defending corporations to involve a 3rd party in the war-declaration system through mercenary contracts. They will function the same as an offensive war dec (complete with War Medals) with the exception that they pay no fee as long as the attacking corporation maintains the war. 6. Inhibit corp hopping to prevent war declarations - whenever leaving a corporation at war, players with roles must wait at least 72 hours before leaving the corporation. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Tarminic 1. Increase the cost of creating a corporation significantly (at least 100 million ISK) 2. Allow the defenders a one-time bribe of CONCORD (~50 million) to postpone the beginning of the war for 1 week 3. Create a tangible means for displaying how a corporation can win a war - whenever the corporation starts the war they set out objectives, including: -ISK destroyed -Ships destroyed (by type) -Membership reduced (% or #) -Closing of corporation -Removal of offices 4. When a corporation completes all their objectives or retracts the war without completing them, it can be displayed from the corporate show-info screen as medals. Gives victors bragging rights but also lets a defending corporation shame their opponents by denying them objectives. 5. Allow defending corporations to involve a 3rd party in the war-declaration system through mercenary contracts. They will function the same as an offensive war dec (complete with War Medals) with the exception that they pay no fee as long as the attacking corporation maintains the war. 6. Inhibit corp hopping to prevent war declarations - whenever leaving a corporation at war, players with roles must wait at least 72 hours before leaving the corporation. Ah. Yes, this ^^ Big second.
Reza Pluss Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:41:00 - [38] Originally by: Tarminic Good stuff Good stuff as always. Who wants to write/add to the CSM forum?
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:45:00 - [39] Edited by: Tarminic on 12/08/2008 16:48:09 Originally by: Reza Pluss Originally by: Tarminic Good stuff Good stuff as always. Who wants to write/add to the CSM forum? I was just pondering this, I think I will. EDIT: Assembly Hall thread here: Linkage ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Richard Angevian The Crusaders.	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:49:00 - [40] Good changes: 1. Have conditions other than paying the fee to keep a war valid, IE: if you wardec a 0.0 alliance, you MUST get kills in an area where they have sov or one of their corps has an office or installation (POS) or the war drops. Wars shouldn't be "grief 0.0 alliances in empire", they should require you to "bring it" to your enemy. 2. There needs to be other goals that have to be at least attempted to keep a war going, such as actually achieving kills. 3. There should be a 15 minute aggression timer applied when aggressing in Empire or elsewhere. During that 15 minutes, no "dockupski". Ie: If you attack, you are committed to a fight.

Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:50:00 - [41] Only things that need changing are: - Make wars follow players even if they corp hop. - Allow declarations on NPC corps/boot people from NPC corps once they reach a certain age. - Make deccing alliances cheaper.
Surreptitious State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:09:00 - [42] I would make EVE exactly like a WOW PVP server, except you can attack friendlies and there is no respawn. Seriously. Syrup
Cyd Vicious	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:11:00 - [43] Quote: 1. Both parties must agree -hey, wanna play pew pew? -no -aww common! -no -pretty pleeeeease! -umm ok As long as we attack first -thats not fair! -then no wars -buuuuu *end of convo
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:12:00 - [44] I would add in arena. Make eve more WoW like, that way more ppl will pvp.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:29:00 - [45] Edited by: Gimpb on 12/08/2008 17:29:59 Edited by: Gimpb on 12/08/2008 17:29:22 Have wardecs follow the players of the corps involved, only for the first week though. Decrease the cost to wardec corps/alliances that are the aggressor in other wardecs. Allow players in npc corps that are older than 2-3 months to be attacked by hostile militias. Allow the defender to make the war mutual and perpetuate it for up to 3 months for free. Remove the price difference between alliances and corps, just go with something in between.
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:33:00 - [46] Edited by: Mankirks Wife on 12/08/2008 17:35:45 While I'll agree that many a new corp has folded under the pressure of a wardec from a pirate corp, this is very much a right of passage in Eve - if you want the benefits of having a corp you have to be able to defend yourself. There's already good options (in the form of NPC corps) for people who don't want to deal with wardecs. However if I had to throw out some suggestions to make the system fairer, I'd go with.. 1) Make it cost the same to dec an individual corp as it does an alliance. 2) Create a new type of corp, we'll call it the LLC for the sake of simplicity. LLCs can not be wardec'd, but can not own POS's or own more than two corp offices. LLCs can be converted to normal corps at any time but not vice-versa. EDIT: Plus everything Taramic said ---
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:41:00 - [47] I would change the wardec bribe into a bond held in escrow by concord and paid to whoever wins the war. This bond covers insurance payout of ship destroyed and if you destroy too many enemy ships, you have to either put more money on the bond or retract the war. If you retract the war or surrender, bond money goes to winning corp. This way you still get to pay for grieving, only you are paying the enemy corp for destroying their ships --- "There is no lag in Jita, NEVER!" - Iraqi Information Minister
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Tarminic 3. Create a tangible means for displaying how a corporation can win a war - whenever the corporation starts the war they set out objectives, including: -ISK destroyed -Ships destroyed (by type) -Membership reduced (% or #) -Closing of corporation -Removal of offices -Destruction/removal of a POS This idea sounds like a good starting point. However, I don't think that fame/shame is enough of a mechanic to force people to work for the objectives. I would suggest working off of Akita's idea of double your money. The corp initiating the war sets their objective and pays an initial fee, say 2 mil. The defending corp's objective would automaticly be to deny the attacking corp their objective. If they fail to achieve their objective within 1 week, the fee doubles to 4 mil, then 8 and so on until they either achieve their objective or fail to pay the fee and therefore lose the war. If the attackers win, they can estabish a new objective and continue the war with the fee reset back to its starting level. If the defenders win the war, they receive 50% of the fees paid by the attackers. The victory reward for the defenders is there to encourage them to mount a defence instead of avoiding the fight all together. It also serves as a counter point to the current pay-to-grief as they will be rewarding the defenders if they fail to achieve their objective. The theory is that the war dec system forces the attackers to have a greater reason to attack than simply pay-to-grief, and because of the attackers need to define an objective, provides the defenders with a goal to defend. The biggest challenge will be estabilshing what sort of goals are reasonable objectives for an attacker to aim for, and how they are implimented as a game mechanic. Regardless of how a new system works, people will still find ways to use it as a pay-to-grief service, while others will find ways to dodge around having PvP forced upon them. But atleast we can try to build a system that does something more than bribe law inforcement to ignore abuse.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Tarminic 1. Increase the cost of creating a corporation significantly (at least 100 million ISK) 2. Allow the defenders a one-time bribe of CONCORD (~50 million) to postpone the beginning of the war for 1 week 3. Create a tangible means for displaying how a corporation can win a war - whenever the corporation starts the war they set out objectives, including: -ISK destroyed -Ships destroyed (by type) -Membership reduced (% or #) -Closing of corporation -Removal of offices 4. When a corporation completes all their objectives or retracts the war without completing them, it can be displayed from the corporate show-info screen as medals. Gives victors bragging rights but also lets a defending corporation shame their opponents by denying them objectives. 5. Allow defending corporations to involve a 3rd party in the war-declaration system through mercenary contracts. They will function the same as an offensive war dec (complete with War Medals) with the exception that they pay no fee as long as the attacking corporation maintains the war. 6. Inhibit corp hopping to prevent war declarations - whenever leaving a corporation at war, players with roles must wait at least 72 hours before leaving the corporation. Add an npc corp tax of 25%, and I'm sold on this too. ^^
Grarr Dexx Amarr Avenging United	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:05:00 - [50] Originally by: 5pinDizzy fixed

Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:31:00 - [51] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 12/08/2008 18:33:42 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 12/08/2008 18:32:08 Well, to come up with a solution you have to look at what problem you're trying to solve. I think war decs as they currently exist serve an important purpose in the game. They encourage new players to join up with strong, well run, existing corps rather than everyone starting their own. Eve is a lonely game if you you have 300,000 players in 50,000 corps each with 6 members 4 of which are alts of the two people in the corp. NPC corps serve an important purpose too. They're there for the soloists, though what you can do in them is relatively limited and really only appropriate for a casual/occasional player. Leave war decs alone. FIX BOUNTY HUNTING. If there was a system in the game where griefers ended up with a big price on their heads and 5 people looking to collect waiting for them to undock every time they logged in, there would be little to no issue. The only profitable PvP right now is griefing/pirating. If you want to address this issue YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT PROFITABLE TO HUNT GRIEFERS AND PIRATES. That way, those who want to make their living through PvP would have some other option besides griefing and pirating, and you couldn't really be a hunter without risking becoming the hunted.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:36:00 - [52] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 12/08/2008 18:40:06 Originally by: Grarr Dexx fixed Nice picture. Sorry, am I missing something? I cannot fathom any idea as to what I did to provoke that reponse.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Exxxotic	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:45:00 - [53] what Tarminic said with the addition new players in starter corps are tax free ect 3 months in 25% tax on all income 6 months 50% 9 months 75% 12 months 100% force people out of the starter corps this way, too many poeple hide behind noob corps, when they should be just for new players
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:51:00 - [54] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 12/08/2008 18:39:13 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 12/08/2008 18:33:42 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 12/08/2008 18:32:08 Well, to come up with a solution you have to look at what problem you're trying to solve. I think war decs as they currently exist serve an important purpose in the game. They encourage new players to join up with strong, well run, existing corps rather than everyone starting their own. Eve is a lonely game if you you have 300,000 players in 50,000 corps each with 6 members 4 of which are alts of the two people in the corp. NPC corps serve an important purpose too. They're there for the soloists, though what you can do in them is relatively limited and really only appropriate for a casual/occasional player. The problem that needs solving, if there is one, is to provide more consequences for those who specialize in griefing those who have little to no ability to fight back using war decs. Solution: Leave war decs alone. FIX BOUNTY HUNTING. If there was a system in the game where griefers ended up with a big price on their heads and 5 people looking to collect waiting for them to undock every time they logged in, there would be little to no issue. The only profitable PvP right now is griefing/pirating. If you want to address this issue YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT PROFITABLE TO HUNT GRIEFERS AND PIRATES. That way, those who want to make their living through PvP would have some other option besides griefing and pirating, and you couldn't really be a hunter without risking becoming the hunted. WELL SAID. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:59:00 - [55] Originally by: Xtreem ...force people... So that they have to play the way you want them to play, right? Problem is, bud, this goes against the basic design philosophy of Eve. Eve allows people. It doesn't force people. It provides incentives, and consequences. Nevermind the fact that your proposal would create a giant isk-sink that would have to be balanced out elsewhere, it just goes against the very nature of the game. Now, before you say that there is no consequence to staying in an NPC corp, it's just not so. In an NPC corp your "end game" is level 4 missions, pretty much, and we all know how thrilling and challenging those are. If you want to experience more of the game than that, you have to leave the NPC corp. The reason that they are considering changes to war decs is that the incentive/consequence formula is out of whack. Deccing a 5 man noobish corp provides hours of fun and giggles (or ransom money), with just about no consequences. Its a pretty good bet that when they do come up with a change, it will be on the side providing more consequences to being a habitual war-deccer.
Jen Takhesis Vanguard Venture	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:04:00 - [56] 1) New players stay in war-immune NPC corporations only until they reach two million skill points or three months in game, whichever comes first. Then they get promoted to another NPC corp which is war deccable. 2) No CEO or director roles of the attacking corporation may change nor the occupants of such roles leave the corp while the war is active. Possibly it would be good to have a blackout period for leaving the corp for any other members as well. 3) If the CEO of the attacked corporation leaves the corporation or 90% of the members leave, the attacking corporation is considered to have won the war. 50% of the war fee is deducted from the losing corporation's wallet(s), any remainder is deducted from the CEO's wallet. 4) New corporations cannot initiate nor receive wardecs for two weeks. 5) A CEO who has lost a war by leaving the corp cannot get backing to start a new corporation, nor take CEO nor director roles for six weeks. 6) Cost of wars should be based on a ratio of the average skill points of the top ten pilots in each corporation. A 30mil average versus a 2mil average corporation should cost 15 times as much a more even match. Concord is ok with wars, not corporacide. They require a higher bribe to smooth over the bad press. Tarminic's ideas were also good. The above are just a few ideas, but would go better with additional ideas mentioned, like the objectives and having a cost per ship destroyed.
Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:12:00 - [57] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Well, to come up with a solution you have to look at what problem you're trying to solve. I think war decs as they currently exist serve an important purpose in the game. They encourage new players to join up with strong, well run, existing corps rather than everyone starting their own. Eve is a lonely game if you you have 300,000 players in 50,000 corps each with 6 members 4 of which are alts of the two people in the corp. NPC corps serve an important purpose too. They're there for the soloists, though what you can do in them is relatively limited and really only appropriate for a casual/occasional player. The problem that needs solving, if there is one, is to provide more consequences for those who specialize in griefing those who have little to no ability to fight back using war decs. Solution: Leave war decs alone. FIX BOUNTY HUNTING. If there was a system in the game where griefers ended up with a big price on their heads and 5 people looking to collect waiting for them to undock every time they logged in, there would be little to no issue. The only profitable PvP right now is griefing/pirating. If you want to address this issue YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT PROFITABLE TO HUNT GRIEFERS AND PIRATES. That way, those who want to make their living through PvP would have some other option besides griefing and pirating, and you couldn't really be a hunter without risking becoming the hunted. This, the thread can now be closed.
fazeley Empire Assault Corp	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:43:00 - [58] Open ended wardecs with no specific purpose are a bit odd I think. I think that a wardec should have an objective set which applies to the corp initiating the war-dec. The objective should be linked to the cost of the war and when that objective is reached the war ends. Conversely if the objective is not met after a period of time then a deposit is forfeited by the corp that initiated the war to the corp they decced. A bit of a wager if you will e.g. Corp A decs Corp B Objective: Kill 1000M Base value of ship's or Corp B loses 50% of membership over 20 days Deposit: 100M Objective met - Corp A's deposit is refunded Objective not met - Corp B awarded deposit More creative minds than myself could think of more interesting objectives I would imagine. Surrender conditions etc. etc.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:52:00 - [59] Edited by: Roy Batty68 on 12/08/2008 19:54:34 The entire idea that a bunch of older players war dec'ing a bunch of noobs is a problem to solve is flawed from the outset. Just stop. It's not about griefing. It's about evolving. People have to learn one way or another. It is exactly like some numpty putting all their eve belongings into a cargo expanded badger, with no other mods on it, and AP'ing across regions of space. It's dumb and lazy playing and not something to "solve" other than the player figuring out how to play smarter. A bunch of noobs making a corp is no different. They need to learn. Not be coddled. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Nexa Necis The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.12 20:30:00 - [60] Personally I don't see it needing changing. It depends on what they want done. Apparently they are wanting to stop "griefing" war decs. How does one ascertain it is about griefing? For example, I dec'd a corp because one of their smack talking players had joined them. Instead of booting the player, he said, "Haha come dec me!!!". So we dec him and all their players jump corp. Their players brag about corp jumping and brag about being able to easily escape any consequences of their actions by placing alt placeholders and swapping corps. They already have many outs of war decs. Jump corp legitimately, jump corp using fake corps and alt placeholders, join an alliance that's willing to lend support, hire mercs, diplomacy, pay a ransom/surrender offer or join an NPC corp, or move to low sec or 0.0 where others can maybe help defend you without the need for a war dec. I have no problem if CCP changes it to give them a way to "end" the war. If they do that, they need to give the rest of us a way to win the war. If they allow people to corp hop specifically to avoid war, they're not going to even bother using the new system it sounds like they might be implementing. There are just way too many variables I think to come up with a solid system. Also, those variables are all easily manipulated by the players so there's no real way to know the true parameters to base a system on. I have heard people say that you have to have a certain amount of people in corp and pay fees based on number of players, age of players and such. It's just not accurately quantifiable. People will sandbag and manipulate the numbers so they get results in their favor. I guess the corp initiating the war could do that to, but seeing as the "victims" have all the power when it comes to dealing with the war, I don't see CCP having options for the agressor so much as they will for the victims. I've said before, we've dec'd large corps and alliances and only asked for 150 million to surrender and they refuse to pay. Even with a war going on for over 2 months, they refuse. Even with them losing 5 or 6 billion in ships/mods, not to mention time loss from not missioning or mining in safety. They feel if they pay one then they will be dec'd by a long stream of ne'er do wells looking for a quick ISK payoff. Or it could be a matter of pride or plain stupidity. It's been said a million times, Eve was meant to be a sandbox and unwanted interaction is part of the game. So if you don't like war decs, don't join a corp. If you really need a corp, recruit solid players who are willing to back each other up, have common goals and build yourselves up. Sometimes we dec a corp of 80 players and 50 quit almost immediately. No effort at all. Keep in mind we have like 15-20 people in our corp, so it's not like a 60 man corp decing a 5 man corp. I got a bit off track saying why I think a different system wont work, but here are some of the solutions that might work. I'd say increase the war dec slots to 10, increase the cost accordingly. Make it to where it takes one week to leave corp. That way the agressors aren't wasting ISK and they're getting a fair shot to kill. Put in a in game option where the agressors can put in the parameters of a surrender. Such as ISK or minerals sort of like a contract. Once filled the war retracts immediately. Even with that, there could be shenanigans. Who can determine the price of surrender? I've asked for 50 million from people with faction gear and get told to screw off. What's to say the agressor wont redec in 2 weeks? There are way to many maipulatable variables controlled by the players. Leave it as is. The people who don't want war have more than enough outs. 1. NPC corp 2. Diplomacy 3. Pay surrender/ransom 4. Corp Jump 5. Join alliance 6. Fight back 7. Create alt corps/placeholders and jump nonstop 8. Relocate #7 saves them from all war from 1 corp. That's been shown as a fact.



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