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Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:34:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 13/08/2008 08:01:45
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Hawk's range with faction rockets: 15km
Hawk's range with Javelin rockets: 43km
Harpy's range with neutron blasters and faction AM: 2.5km (+3.1km falloff)
Harpy's range with Null: 6.3km (3.9km falloff)
Yeah, well. Given that rockets have no tracking problems, it's obvious that they should be doing roughly the same theoretical damage as blasters.
U noticed the missile veloc and explo veloc on rockets? Even a AB ship could maybe escape the damage
 In the future, I'd strongly recommend checking the facts before having an opinion. Faction rockets won't get any damage reduction before 3 km/s. Good luck getting any ship to that speed with ABs. And, well. How much damage do you expect a light blaster to do - at any range - against a target going 3 km/s?
Ok the Ab was a bit too much :) And dont tried with small blasters, but with small rails im able to very well hit a 6km/s orbiting crow....
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mikeel
Out of interest. How long have you actually played EVE ?
Hmm, 2.5 years or so. Also, long enough that just about every time I join a corp I get the number 1 killer spot on battleclinic. ;-)
-Liang
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Scimon Tinker
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:23:00 -
[33]
2.5years is enough for my Q then.
Which missile state over the past 2.5 years did you prefer and feel that is most balanced regardless of other weaponry/changes in the game
Missiles pwn everything the bigger they get
Missiles with no skills apart from just missile class
TII missiles PRE precision nerf
TII missiles POST precision nerf
Torps in their various states
Addition of Faction missiles
Defenders/FOF in their current and unchanged state in 2.5years
New changes where Class Vs Class will make the difference ?
im sure ive missed something else but im more a projectile man myself :)
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:41:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/08/2008 18:46:12
Originally by: Scimon Tinker
2.5years is enough for my Q then.
Which missile state over the past 2.5 years did you prefer and feel that is most balanced regardless of other weaponry/changes in the game
Hmm, I rather like how they currently are on TQ actually. My only complaint about missiles has been on Sisi where there simply is no other option for close range gankage. I mean, I *like* my Caldari being amazingly powerful, but I don't want it to happen at the expense of all of my other characters.
To explain my perspective, I've always been a HML/Torp guy, either running a HML Drake or a Torp Raven. Of course, these are (and have been) excellent choices for lowsec combat, which is where most of my Caldari character's combat has been. I mean, I've had my extended trips to 0.0, but they've mostly been on Liang (a drone ***** until recently) and/or my Matari.
My current favorite ship is a toss up between the Tempest and the Cruise Scorpion. And yes I know that both are considered "teh sux"... but who can't help but shout Yarr! in local when they look at the old ***** sway in the breeze?
-Liang
Ed: There are, of course, changes that I'd make if I were in charge:
- Unnerf Precision Heavies
- Make missiles faster, but keep same base range (mitigates delayed damage somewhat)
- Buff explo radius on torps
- Add modules to affect missile explo radius/velocity/speed/flight time
- Make TD's affect missiles
- Remove defenders from NPC's. ;-)
But remember that these changes would be based on *current TQ*, not the absurdity that's on Sisi. With the speed *and* web nerfs, missiles just have nowhere to go except be nerfed (which is probably going to be ruinous tbh)
--
I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
-- Mahatma Gandhi |
Meina Lamia
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:01:00 -
[35]
I lost quite a few AB wolfs to cruise missile ravens in less than 3 volleys. That same ships would be able to orbit any other BS forever without taking any damage (as it should)
I don't think ANY ship should be able to orbit any other ship without the abilty to take some damage and eventually be worn down.
Just Intys and Frigs should last alot longer vs vessels that are many times their size such as BS. And anything Cruiser and down should always be a Clear and Present Danger where as Destroyers are something you just plain avoid if you are Inty or Frig.
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Scimon Tinker
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:02:00 -
[36]
not quite the answer i was expecting but thanks for the reply.
my pref is :
a total unnerf to all precision classes
improve or change defenders to a better form of anti missile (sunburst style maybe)
FoF reworking or removal
I am also happy with the current missile style on TQ maybe some very small tweeks but missiles as they are seem to work. I try not to compare mods and weapons in terms of balance and i fully agree that caldari (missile based) should be awesome at their job. missiles imho work quite well atm
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.08.13 20:06:00 -
[37]
actually precisions should be able to always hit a nanoing target of its class for full dmg (but the missiles should have much lower base dmg than their normal counterpart), but they should not be IWIN against smaller stuff like it is now. precisions are, like the name indicates, for precision not for IBBQ every ship smaller than me.
this is also a problem with webs. a web negate every aspect and advantage of flying a smaller ship. its not like a bigger hull has not already possiblities to fight the smaller one with tank/more slots/bigger neuts and all that.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.13 20:57:00 -
[38]
I think that missiles would be fairly balanced with everything else if two conditions were met. Long range missiles simply can't snipe at range. If this is fixed, there may be significantly more use for HML Drakes and Cruise Ravens... Secondly, aren't long range weapons supposed to be less accurate than short range weapons?
The real concern, however, is the fact that missile tracking uses signature radius and absolute velocity as two separate conditional tracking variables, while turret tracking uses signature radius as a modifier for angular velocity, which is the one conditional tracking variable.
Right now, Johnny Pod Pilot is orbiting me at a certain speed with a certain signature radius. His ship's angular velocity is somewhat lower than my gun's tracking ability, so no tracking reduction. But wait! His radius is lower than that of my gun's resolution, so the sensors won't operate as effectively as it could, so I might get a 10% damage reduction overall.
After that, I launch a missile at him. His ship's absolute velocity is lower than my missile's explosion velocity, so there is no damage reduction. But wait! His radius is smaller than my missile's explosion radius, meaning the missile's guidance system won't see the optimal location to detonate as effectively as it could, so I might get a 10% damage reduction there as well.
But oh noes! Johnny Pod Pilot activated his MWD! He is now going way too fast for my gun to track. However, his overinflated signature radius is an advantage because my sensors can help my gun to track through prediction. I gain back most of the damage output that was lost. I then fire a missile, and he is too fast for the explosion to keep up. However... hey, wait! His overinflated signature radius doesn't help my missile guidance system? Great. I gain back none of the damage output that was lost.
Johnny Pod Pilot explains to us all how missile guidance is broken.
Thanks a lot, Johnny Pod Pilot  .
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.14 09:28:00 -
[39]
then how cruise raven is 2 volleying af?
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Spartan dax
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.14 10:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl
then how cruise raven is 2 volleying af?
I very much doubt that.
Take a Harpy with one med extender and cruise Raven with three BCU's (A ratter). For arguments sake lets say we're using exp ammo for a well rounded 50% resists, standard ammo and my skills. (BS 4 Cruise 4 supports 4)
My volley damage 2900:ish Exp radius 255m
Harpy shields 2411 50% resist, sig radius 44m
The amount of damage that actually connects is 44/255 x 2900 = 500 and then factor in the 50% resist and you'll take 250 points of damage/volley. So almost 10 volleys to kill the shields and with a ROF of 8+ seconds that's quite some time for you to live. Compare that to when a Mega webs you today on TQ.
Even with maxed skills and precisions on the same Raven you'd get 44/150 x 2711 = 795 and the 50% resist which give you roughly 400 points of volleydamage.
Overall I don't think missiles need that much work, in the above scenario My raven applies 72 dps on that Harpy before resists and the maxed skilled one with precisions touches the Harpy with 114 dps before resists. It's the prevalence of buffertanks and that line of thinking that mess things up a bit I think and who can blame them with that much dps flying around and 90% webs making sure they connect?
Basically if you want to kill a cruise raven in a small ship; active tank. You'll even take less damage thanks to not having a sig radius penalty from the extender.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.14 14:46:00 -
[41]
The missiles performance depends alot on the ships and its bonuses theyre used on.
With this in mind, plus the changes presented to us ill try to make a list of what needs changed and what is ok as it is.
Rockets, as a shortrange frigate weapon they naturally werent used much, neither were acs - only blasters stood out but thats mostly thanks to the ships they can be put on.
Id say Rockets are okish, their dmg above small missiles dont really justify the smaller range tho - the only reason to fit rockets is to safe pg and cpu.
How about making rockets more interesting, make them like torpedos - bigger explosion sig then most frigs sig radius, slow and a average explosion velocity but on the other hand more dmg then they do atm.
Standard Missiles seem fine as they are to me, hardly too damaging, but with the speedchanges always hitting they maybe need a explosion velocity reduction so mwding frigs can reduce the dmg, would need to be checked. Cruisers with assault launchers will murder frigs, but so will ruptures with dual 180mm acs or vexors with medium drones.
Heavy missiles let them as they re.
Heavy Assault Missiles - same as rockets, make them more like torps.
Cruise launchers, slower explosion velocitiy as ships are getting slower, but i also would give em the same epxlosion radius torps have.
What they have going for them is their range and low fitting requirements - i dont see them having to be able to slaughter cruisers as they can now.
Torps, adjust explovelo to speedchanges - just plz dont overdo it ;)
Make them slower in general but up their flight time so the range stays the same - so they still have the range advantage over most closerange guns - but the missile advantage of the missile flighttime which you atm just dont feel.
Also change ships missile velocity bonus to flighttime.
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Any good reason for gateguns shooting drones and thus removing dronebased ships from pirating?
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Spartan dax
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.14 15:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Standard Missiles seem fine as they are to me, hardly too damaging, but with the speedchanges always hitting they maybe need a explosion velocity reduction so mwding frigs can reduce the dmg, would need to be checked. Cruisers with assault launchers will murder frigs, but so will ruptures with dual 180mm acs or vexors with medium drones.
This really is the big question, exactly how much damage reduction should you gain from a speedtank? 100%? No obviously not, that's pretty much todays situation which is under scrutiny and will be changed. All that needs to be said is how much damage should a speedtank reduce. The rest is easy.
Personally I like my "Big EXP radius and FAST EX velocity" missile and "SMALL exp radius AND SLOW ex velocity" missile. Would be fun to try it out on sisi.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.14 15:38:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Haradgrim on 14/08/2008 15:37:45
why was this thread moved? it was in regard to the dev post in the game development forum
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Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Jim Raynor
Caldari
Shinra
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Posted - 2008.08.16 10:01:00 -
[44]
Rockets-> Range is fine, DPS could be increased to be honest, considering the short range, they are pretty gimp. Only reason to fit them is for lower fittings.
Standard Missiles->I guess they are okay considering the range. I honestly don't think that rockets or lights are very good at all.
Assault Launcher->I hate this launcher it doesn't seem to really fit in, I know people use it to be able to damage very very fast ships but I don't know it just seems to be a relic of the past. Just doesn't belong in the current missile scheme now that we have the heavy assault launcher..
Heavy Missiles->Precision Heavy Missiles need to have their explosive velocity increased, badly..
Heavy Assault Missiles->Javelin HAM have WAY too much range, a Sacrilege can shoot out to 86km with javelins.. a Cerberus 186km!! That's one amazing SHORT RANGE missile. Also the PG on these could be lowered a bunch (perhaps nerfing the Sacs PG as well) so they fit easier on Caldari ships.. (mainly the caracal/cerb/nighthawk -- drake seems okay)
Cruise->Honestly the DPS on Cruise isn't that great I don't see any reason to nerf them. They are the versatile launcher you give up a lot of DPS to hit smaller targets over torps (well and you gain a ton of range). Honestly I don't think cruise OMGWTFPWN really.. Maybe increase the explosive radius to 350m.. but that's about it.
Torpedoes->I don't see the problem here, they seem to only hit fast ships that have been webbed, ships that are webbed should take damage that's kind of the point of webbing them in the first place. :) They are very good but hardly wtfpwn..
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I'll make a sig later. |
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