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The Slow Agonizing Death Of Small Group Warfare

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Neesa Corrinne Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.13 03:38:00 - [1] I've been playing EVE since just before RMR went live. At that time a small pack of 5-10 people in PVP, especially if a couple of them were in HAC's, was an exhilarating experience. Over time, however, change after change has slowly removed the effectiveness of small gangs and very soon they won't exist at all anymore in the current climate. 1) Warp to Zero. A lot of people would argue that "this change was necessary" and that "any idiot can still get kills... adapt or die... blah blah." It doesn't change the fact that this simple game mechanics did have a drastic effect on small gang PVP. Whether you had to adapt to new tactics or not, it still was a significant change. Gangs had to get bigger now in order to have people on both sides of the gate... the first step in eroding small gangs. 2) Jump Bridges. Small gangs were still fairly viable up until this point. You could send recon's to probe out an alliances weak spot and then send your gang through that hole in their defenses, cause a little havoc behind their front lines and then try to make an escape before they could catch you. Jump Bridges changed all that. Now a gate camp blob of 50 people can camp several chokepoints all at once. All they have to do is leave a scout near the chokepoints and keep their gate camp on one of the gates. Hostiles come into a system near a jump bridge and the whole camp of 50 people simply jumps to intercept. The ability for ridiculously large fleets to camp several chokepoints simultaneously is a huge advantage to blobbers and a ridiculous hindrance to small gangs. 3) The Power Creep. As the game progresses and people accumulate more and more skills and bigger and better ships, the standards for warfare begin to change. At one point a few Battleships at a gate camp meant a bit of planning was needed before engaging them. Now any given corp will have 1-50 capital pilots on standbye to hot drop on them if anything goes down. Planning is barely needed unless the gate camp is fairly sizeable. I remember finishing training for the Vagabond, getting into one and immediately becoming somewhat of a celebrity in my small corp for training one of the best PVP ships in the game. Now it's capital ships online. 4) Need for Speed. The first speed initiative took a little of the edge off of a fast moving guerrilla force. It forced a lot of the ships to make a choice between speed and agility, but most forewent the agility and kept going fast. 5) Upcoming speed nerf. This might well be the final death knell of the small gang. A massive nerfing of speed across the board will eliminate the small and fast guerrilla groups who enjoyed playing EVE by roaming through space quickly and catching people off guard. Personally, I'm in favor of a drastic reduction in speed. I do see the need to make the ships fit back within the parameters of the physics engine, however, with this change and the changes listed above, the small gang will be a thing of the past. Changing the way one or two of the above systems works would make a huge difference in bringing small gangs back into the realm of possibility. For instance: 1) Put a timer on Jump Bridge usage. Being able to use a Jump Bridge as many times as anyone wants with no time limit allows fleets to be anywhere they want any time they want. If a fleet decides to use a JB to engage a small gang, then make it a real commitment. 2) Change WTZ. Bookmarks were bad, really bad. But WTZ was just a cheap cop-out for the programmers. A skill/module/rig based solution to WTZ would have been much better. Give us a skill that changes the "warp-to" deviation to a lower amount, so that people could land, say, 5 km instead of 15 km with maxxed skill level. Give us a low slot module that can help with the deviation or a rig that can help. Using the skill + module or rig would = WTZ... but not for free for everyone. NOTE: I won't be feeding the trolls
Gonada Gallente R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.13 03:54:00 - [2] shaddup whiner, noone wants to hear your pathetic crys of its not fair. if you dont like eve, leave. plain and simple. EvE has come a hell of a long way, put it this way, i remember being in fountain going up against rats with friends in cruisers, cause thats all there was in the game at that time. Please, jump into traffic
Neesa Corrinne Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:08:00 - [3] Anyone still smell that fiery burning smell when they fly too close to Geminate? I was gone for three months, so I'm not sure what happened, but damn that smell is awful.
Rusted Seven Caldari Little Ships Go Vroom	Posted - 2008.08.13 04:20:00 - [4] I've always disliked WTZ because it made the small ships I fly just that much more useless.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.13 06:39:00 - [5] It's odd how so very many people - in different corps - post that they want small gang PvP, yet they can't find any. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 06:57:00 - [6] The REASON why you can't small gang PvP is that there's no objective worth pursuing that can be accomplised by a small gang. Generally speaking, of course. Exceptions exist, but only serve to confirm the rule. So the only remaining (desirable) objective is to either destroy as many enemy ships as possible with as little losses as possible (blobbing on either side) or to capture territory (via, what a surprise, POS warfare, blobbing again). So, no, it wasn't WTZ, it wasn't the JBs, it wasn't the accrual of wealth and skills, it wasn't any of the speed nerfs. It's the complete and total lack of INCENTIVES to make people WANT to go out in lowsec/0.0 IN SPITE of the risks. This way, the only people you are likely to ever encounter are people who are fully aware of the risks but came prepared, and are bored enough to easily camp, because there's nothing else they can possibly want to do. Hence, BLOBS. Give people SERIOUS incentives to enter the lowsec/0.0 belts, give people HUGE incentives to leave the relative safety (and soon, almost complete safety) of highsec, and you MIGHT just get enough people who AREN'T part of a huge powerbloc with an extensive intel network and having serious logistic capabilities, so you MIGHT actually encounter something other than blobs once in a while. _ THE APPRENTICE \|\| mineral balance \|\| nanofix
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.08.13 07:26:00 - [7] ^^ This Although if you keep up on the devblogs, they've stated that the upcoming changes to sov should encourage smaller pvp engagements. And in FW you can always catch solo / small groups plexing, as long as you avoid the main blob. ---
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.08.13 07:29:00 - [8] tl;dr And contract tears please, I'm sure they taste delicious
Rexthor Hammerfists The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.13 07:54:00 - [9] Since moving into lowsec, it might just be the area were located in, i had alot smaller sized fights. The ones with 2-3 bs on each side, apart from the occasional huzzah blob coming up, but i guess youll get to know those and just avoid em. What im saying is, the small gang pvp is still there, you just gotta go and find it. - Any good reason for gateguns shooting drones and thus removing dronebased ships from pirating?
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:10:00 - [10] Edited by: NeoTheo on 13/08/2008 08:10:47 i agree about the points less on the speed part, but on others.(whoa i am in a neesa topic and not flaming - lol ;)) one of the things that bothers me is how many folks you can fit in to one "fleet", id like to see it halfed. that would at least help. (wouldnt solve anything, but at least youd have to form 2 gangs, gangs atm dont tend to move out untill they have the fleet full or 70 folks, so make the amount that can join the fleet less and maybe they will move out to roam in smaller groups). wont help with general 0.0 warfare, but will certainly help in faction warblob. /theo Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage

Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis It's odd how so very many people - in different corps - post that they want small gang PvP, yet they can't find any. That is because in reality, most of the people whining actually want small gank pvp. Those interested in small gang pvp just adapt silently. In fact I believe this speed nerf might encourage more small gang pvp, as at least my willingness to engage with relatively even odd will be much higher when I know that the enemy cannot disengage at will and is likely to take losses even if they win. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:23:00 - [12] small pvp no longer happens for 2 reason: 1. No one is looking for a fair fight. This can be attributed to eve's harsh death penaltys. 2. small pvp doesn't accomplish jack shit in eve anymore. Back when small pvp happened it was because there was only one thing to do in eve... kill eachother. now the one thing to do in eve is kill pos instead of eachother. delete pos, that will fix this entire problem. oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Eran Laude tl;dr And contract tears please, I'm sure they taste delicious This is rapidly becoming the worst meme in eve history. Just stop posting. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Kayosoni oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. Ah, yes, because already having less than 20% of the population spread across more than 60% of the game world isn't thin enough yet ? _ THE APPRENTICE \|\| mineral balance \|\| nanofix
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kayosoni oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. Ah, yes, because already having less than 20% of the population spread across more than 60% of the game world isn't thin enough yet ? are you ******ed? why do you think there is 1000 man fleet fights? 90% of 0.0 systems is shit and pointless to inhabit. Not to mention back when eve was actually FUN to play, there was only 5000 people playing at one time (now there is 25000). so, logically, make eve 0.0 5x bigger and we'll be able to fit the 25000 people in enough space that eve will be fun again. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kayosoni oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. Ah, yes, because already having less than 20% of the population spread across more than 60% of the game world isn't thin enough yet ? are you ******ed? why do you think there is 1000 man fleet fights? 90% of 0.0 systems is shit and pointless to inhabit. Not to mention back when eve was actually FUN to play, there was only 5000 people playing at one time (now there is 25000). so, logically, make eve 0.0 5x bigger and we'll be able to fit the 25000 people in enough space that eve will be fun again. Would be enough if they made all of 0.0 like the NPC home regions, i.e. every system gives the same chances for rats and officers, and truesec only affects minerals anymore. But I wholeheartedly agree that all the non-homeregion 0.0 with truesec below -0.75 does not make much sense and needs fixing. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kayosoni oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. Ah, yes, because already having less than 20% of the population spread across more than 60% of the game world isn't thin enough yet ? are you ****ed? why do you think there is 1000 man fleet fights? 90% of 0.0 systems is shit and pointless to inhabit. Not to mention back when eve was actually FUN to play, there was only 5000 people playing at one time (now there is 25000). so, logically, make eve 0.0 5x bigger and we'll be able to fit the 25000 people in enough space that eve will be fun again. Why is it bad to have a rare thing to fight for? Space needs to be worth something. We just need fighting dynamics that allow us to fight for it in a more meaningful and fun way. I'm much happier that my enemy is right next door. I dont have to go so far to fight him. Would just be nice if we had a reason to fight in anothing but lag-topia. Originally by:** CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
ThroatWarbler Mangrove Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:56:00 - [18] IMHO, it's far more simple than anyone has posted. "Small gang" warfare is becoming less because there are simply more people playing Eve these days. Seeing as numbers are one of the most important parts of any military strategy, people are naturally drawn to fielding as many participants as they can. Thus, numbers have slowly climbed. People like winning and, apart from the occasional "beer fleet", played just for fun, the risk-averse will either seek to establish an overwhelming superiority or refuse to engage. If there is a desire for more small gangs then form more beer fleets. Expect to die but hope to take as many with you as you can. Aim to cost your opponent more isk instead of more ships. Fit odd setups to confuse most gangs who will likely turn out in some cookier-cutter fits. Turn out in single-make fleets for lulz. And so on. Play for fun, not to "win". Don't be a slave to killboards or space-holding. Of course, the chances of the whole Eve community doing that are zero, but I like to be an idealist ;)
Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:57:00 - [19] Rells' alt spotted. --- ---
Arachna	Posted - 2008.08.13 09:02:00 - [20] Totally agree with OP, the sad thing is that ccp is promoting this big lag fests and they make it look in the trailers that its playable... All my rl friends who i started playing this game with left because of this reason.

The Mute Minmatar Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.13 09:15:00 - [21] Neesa, you know I love you. 1) Warp to zero. Best thing that ever happened in Eve. Warp to zero did nothing to hurt small gang pvp and in my opinion helped small gangs. It is so much easier to travel more star systems in a shorter amount of time, so a small roaming gang can roam further in search of a fight. Of course this holds true for 70 man fleets traveling as well but small gangs will always be able to outmaneuver a large fleet. Warp to zero brought us all a bit closer together and the closer we get to each other the more we want to blow each other up. Warp to zero did hurt the pirating profession though as the 15km crawl to a gate was the best time to gank someone. 2) Jump bridges. Agreed, jump bridges are a huge deterrent to roaming 0.0. The ability of large fleets to get behind a small gang, around a small gang and up in a small gang is ridiculous, it really isnt fun when your 5 man gang gets squashed between two 30 man fleets due to a jump bridge. Unfortunately, I also believe that in the age before Jump bridges it was almost impossible for an alliance to patrol and defend their space. Small roaming gangs could come in, kill at will and the defenders would never be able to catch up. Taking and holding space is a chore and really the defender should have some advantages. 3) Power Creep. This is just something we have to live with. Eve Population keeps growing and more people can fly bigger and better ships. That means gangs are gonna get bigger and we all have to adapt. Truthfully the biggest threat to small gang pvp is that Eve is more popular then ever and too many people like the same game that we do. I really don't want to complain that too many people like the game, after all more people means more targets. As for "capital ships online" yeah, I don't really like capitals but considering our corp eats em for breakfast I wouldn't say that capitals are too powerful or breaking the game. 4)Speed. Fast ships do not promote smaller gangs. 40 man nanogangs are typical these days. Speed does not matter, if you got 40 people in alliance channel who want to roam then 40 people are gonna x up. If speed gets nerfed then those 40 people will be in rr BS or Recons but they will still be 40 people. When I first started playing, the record for concurrent users was 14 thousand, these days it's rare to dip below 20 thousand and prime time numbers are over 30 thousand. The reason smaller gangs are becoming rare is that there are just a lot more people online. I agree with you Neesa that we need more objectives that a small gang can complete. We need reasons to split our forces into smaller units. I don't know what the answer is, so until ccp give us some reason to form smaller gangs then we need to find ways to force the kind of fights we want, it is possible and it's all part of the game. -------------------------------------------------- [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you wo
fairimear Gallente S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.08.13 09:16:00 - [22] Edited by: fairimear on 13/08/2008 09:17:13 Small pvp is dead for a couple of very simple reasons. 1. To many people in eve now. Very simple but most overlooked is that every 1 has god dam reinforcements 2 jumps away. Sure you get your kill. but they will get you on your way back out. 2. Ecm pure and simple. ECM in game. 2 types of gang in eve. the ones with ecm and the ones without. Guess who wins. And if you both bring ECM u defeat the point of a small gang as you need more ships to counter it. 3. Pos. Why pvp to keep the hostiles respecting your space when you can pos up. 4. Balance. 1 100mill ship or 1 20mill ship can lock down a entire gang. and let a bigger gang wipe it out. 5. to many people with the same level of ship skills. 6 RECONS these ships are so powerful when you get a couple of them together. No gang of 4 hacs would even consider taking on a gang of 4 recons. To much specialization. Makeing your npc hunters SS.
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 09:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Arachna Totally agree with OP, the sad thing is that ccp is promoting this big lag fests and they make it look in the trailers that its playable... All my rl friends who i started playing this game with left because of this reason. that's because the epicness of huge capital ship fleet battles which in reality aren't playable at all, is what is marketable and makes them money. most of the people who used to play eve when it was a fun more "cs in space" type game have since quit. (not to mention the people that allowed this game to even be as successful as it now is.) ccp really just gives huge slap in the face to all the vets who played eve for its first 2 years. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Malcanis It's odd how so very many people - in different corps - post that they want small gang PvP, yet they can't find any. Generally because the defender will always outnumber an attacking force in their own territory. And with effortless and instant intel + extreme ease of fast travel you will get a defensive force up in a short time. Vote against the nano nerf!
ArmyOfMe Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:20:00 - [25] Originally by: The Mute 2) Jump bridges. Unfortunately, I also believe that in the age before Jump bridges it was almost impossible for an alliance to patrol and defend their space. Small roaming gangs could come in, kill at will and the defenders would never be able to catch up. Taking and holding space is a chore and really the defender should have some advantages. before the age of jump bridges most alliance didnt keep as much space as some do today. holding space should be a chore and if its to hard for them to defend it without jumpbridges it simply meen they have to much space imo
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne 2) Change WTZ. Bookmarks were bad, really bad. But WTZ was just a cheap cop-out for the programmers. A skill/module/rig based solution to WTZ would have been much better. Give us a skill that changes the "warp-to" deviation to a lower amount, so that people could land, say, 5 km instead of 15 km with maxxed skill level. Wow, did a bunch of WTZ whiners step into a time machine together a while back or something? Some crazy deja vu going on the last couple of days. Anyway, as was the case at the time, +5 for wanting to replace necessary bookmarks with a necessary timesinks, and begging for free bubbles on gates. - DesuSigs
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kayosoni oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. Ah, yes, because already having less than 20% of the population spread across more than 60% of the game world isn't thin enough yet ? why do you think there is 1000 man fleet fights? 90% of 0.0 systems is shit and pointless to inhabit. Not to mention back when eve was actually FUN to play, there was only 5000 people playing at one time (now there is 25000). so, logically, make eve 0.0 5x bigger and we'll be able to fit the 25000 people in enough space that eve will be fun again. So, rather than make half of those 90% crappy 0.0 systems worthwhile, you'd prefer to add many times more starsystems overall at the same crap:good ratios ? Please explain your preference. _ THE APPRENTICE \|\| mineral balance \|\| nanofix
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kayosoni oh and make eve have 5x more 0.0 system. Ah, yes, because already having less than 20% of the population spread across more than 60% of the game world isn't thin enough yet ? why do you think there is 1000 man fleet fights? 90% of 0.0 systems is shit and pointless to inhabit. Not to mention back when eve was actually FUN to play, there was only 5000 people playing at one time (now there is 25000). so, logically, make eve 0.0 5x bigger and we'll be able to fit the 25000 people in enough space that eve will be fun again. So, rather than make half of those 90% crappy 0.0 systems worthwhile, you'd prefer to add many times more starsystems overall at the same crap:good ratios ? Please explain your preference. if there wasn't shitty 0.0 to chase people around in to the next system, what would we do??? I don't really have a preference. 90% of 0.0 has always been complete shit. I dunno why it is like this, but I do think it's stupid. honestly there's not enough focus on the features already in solar systems as a means for combat. what happened to random environments that change the "terrain" of pvp? ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:33:00 - [29] whoever says small group warefare is dying needs to go pvp some more. points at akita oh almost forgot can you send me your tears i'll pay
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:35:00 - [30] Making all warps have at least 5km imprecision at max skills (in a completely random direction), slowing down warp speeds/acceleration by a factor of 3 (maybe even 5 overall), increasing cap amounts (both ship maxcap and cap battery additions), cap recharge time and warp cap usage by the very same factor too (much more likely to cap-out during longer trips, but same peak cap amount regen for non-warp purposes) and so on would go a long way in making EVE feel "larger" without actually adding any systems, and you could just buff a lot of the existing systems. Making the JBs not act instantly but rather, say, have a 5 minutes "charge-up" (or cool-down?) phase would be interesting too. _ THE APPRENTICE \|\| mineral balance \|\| nanofix

Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:39:00 - [31] Originally by: Akita T Making all warps have at least 5km imprecision at max skills (in a completely random direction), slowing down warp speeds/acceleration by a factor of 3 (maybe even 5 overall), increasing cap amounts (both ship maxcap and cap battery additions), cap recharge time and warp cap usage by the very same factor too (much more likely to cap-out during longer trips, but same peak cap amount regen for non-warp purposes) and so on would go a long way in making EVE feel "larger" without actually adding any systems, and you could just buff a lot of the existing systems. Making the JBs not act instantly but rather, say, have a 5 minutes "charge-up" (or cool-down?) phase would be interesting too. eve no longer feels big because there are 200 more 0.0 gates that connect all the regions to eachother. eve was big when it looked like this:(btw don't ask me why I have this screens) remove the **ing smuggler gates. add more space behind them, make stuff already in solar systems matter, like the **ing planets which don't mean jack shit maybe. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:40:00 - [32] Edited by: Akita T on 13/08/2008 10:42:42 Originally by: Lord Zoran whoever says small group warefare is dying needs to go pvp some more. points at akita oh almost forgot can you send me your tears i'll pay You know what annoys me more than idiots who just don't know any better ? People who think they know so much but fail to add ANYTHING constructive while only using abused memes. Especially those using "fancy" colours to do so. All you said was "I disagree with thread title", while using many more words. Try adding some content next time, like "I constantly PvP in groups of 2-3-x in <area> and we have no problems encountering smaller groups, we have about <abc> skirmishes daily\|weekly\|monthly". ____ On the issue of the smuggler gates... what if they would need isotopes in order to allow jumping through AND they would have a short charge-up time ? _ THE APPRENTICE \|\| mineral balance \|\| nanofix
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:51:00 - [33] Originally by: Akita T On the issue of the smuggler gates... what if they would need isotopes in order to allow jumping through AND they would have a short charge-up time ? they should require a black ops to operate. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Vistilantus Caldari You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:54:00 - [34] Edited by: Vistilantus on 13/08/2008 10:55:24 If you think small gang pvp is dead, then i'm sorry but, as my corp name suggests, you're doing it wrong. YDIW strive on small gang pvp, it's what we do best. Maybe the difference betwen us is that we don't camp gates for a living. We're a very small, but effective band of pirates that get action whenever we go looking for it. The whole issue on hot dropping is also, mostly, a moot point for us. Check out our videos where we had 2 mom's and a thanatos dropped on us and we lost 0 ships in that engagement. (for the record, we tend not to fly cap ships and none were on our side during the engagement.) Personally, i think pvp in eve has never been as good as it is now. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Vistilantus Personally, i think pvp in eve has never been as good as it is now. HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA. wait, let me login and see how new your character is. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Vistilantus Caldari You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:56:00 - [36] Please do, you will see that my character was first created in January 2004. And i am still the original owner. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Kayosoni	Posted - 2008.08.13 10:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Vistilantus Please do, you will see that my character was first created in January 2004. And i am still the original owner. not old enough. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
MOS DEF 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.08.13 11:24:00 - [38] While i agree with some of your points you overlook the main issue the game had back then. I had WTZ bookmarks for every system in eve. Took ages to open people and places but other then that i had WTZ just like now. Most people i knew back then had these bookmarks. All we had is more server strain from ridiculous amounts of bookmarks. Maybe they simply should've made these bookmarks obsolete and impossible though. About jump bridges: I'd go so far to say that the whole sovereignity system with POS and forced capital and support blobbing ist fundamentally flawed. And no you can't have my stuff. I'll still blow people up wherever i can. ___
Neesa Corrinne Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:02:00 - [39] Originally by: MOS DEF While i agree with some of your points you overlook the main issue the game had back then. I had WTZ bookmarks for every system in eve. Took ages to open people and places but other then that i had WTZ just like now. Most people i knew back then had these bookmarks. All we had is more server strain from ridiculous amounts of bookmarks. Maybe they simply should've made these bookmarks obsolete and impossible though. About jump bridges: I'd go so far to say that the whole sovereignity system with POS and forced capital and support blobbing ist fundamentally flawed. And no you can't have my stuff. I'll still blow people up wherever i can. I think you might not have read all the way to the bottom, cause I actually agree with you. Bookmarks were horrible, and I was also one of those people who had bookmarks for every region I even thought I might travel through. The only thing I don't like is that we abruptly went from warp to 15, to everyone just getting WTZ for free. What I would like to see instead is a skill and a module and a rig that can move you closer to the gate than 15km, but you have to earn it. One person made a comment that it's like a time warp where all the people who were whining about WTZ suddenly came back out of the woodwork. That's actually not the case, what has happened is that we remember how large EVE felt when traveling meant something and now that we've had WTZ for over a year, we realize that it's horrible and makes EVE feel small. When WTZ was implemented there would only be 18,000 people online during peak hours. Now that there are 35,000 people on during peak hours, it makes a lot less sense to "Make EVE smaller".
Neesa Corrinne Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Akita T The REASON why you can't small gang PvP is that there's no objective worth pursuing that can be accomplised by a small gang. Generally speaking, of course. Exceptions exist, but only serve to confirm the rule. So the only remaining (desirable) objective is to either destroy as many enemy ships as possible with as little losses as possible (blobbing on either side) or to capture territory (via, what a surprise, POS warfare, blobbing again). So, no, it wasn't WTZ, it wasn't the JBs, it wasn't the accrual of wealth and skills, it wasn't any of the speed nerfs. It's the complete and total lack of INCENTIVES to make people WANT to go out in lowsec/0.0 IN SPITE of the risks. This way, the only people you are likely to ever encounter are people who are fully aware of the risks but came prepared, and are bored enough to easily camp, because there's nothing else they can possibly want to do. Hence, BLOBS. Give people SERIOUS incentives to enter the lowsec/0.0 belts, give people HUGE incentives to leave the relative safety (and soon, almost complete safety) of highsec, and you MIGHT just get enough people who AREN'T part of a huge powerbloc with an extensive intel network and having serious logistic capabilities, so you MIGHT actually encounter something other than blobs once in a while. For myself, and the members of the old BWL corp (Before CCP disbanded us), the thrill of the game was the fight. We didn't need any other reason to log on every night at the same time other than to saddle up and head into 0.0 for some killy killy. Now, if we do this in most alliance's space, we will get a few jumps in and suddenly find a 50 man gang on top of us via jump bridge, and after the speed nerf (which I still contend is a necessary change) we won't have a snowballs chance in hell of escaping.

Challis Caldari Omega Sector Evolution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:10:00 - [41] Edited by: Challis on 13/08/2008 13:10:18 A problem lies in the fundaments of how EVE is build up, mainly how everything is connected by Stargates. Instead of a huge open universe, you really just get a connestion of dots, with some little things present in each system. But you can only warp to places that either have a BM or are big celestial objects, this also is just a bunch of connected dots. You cant just go off grid easily and get yourself a hideout. If it where possible to warp to much more places off grid small gangs could pirate and terrorise a system, Wars could be fought in a single system, and with thousands of systems, this gives many options. Maybe pos's should be made much more simple, turn them into small outposts your can deploy, and require no fuel, or one simple fuel which doesnt need you to get supplies from half accross the universe to make it run. Ohwell, thing is, this is a great game, but a lot of things could get some change too.
Prof Patpending Warp badgers with guns	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Akita T Making the JBs not act instantly but rather, say, have a 5 minutes "charge-up" (or cool-down?) phase would be interesting too. Yes please implement this immediatly so I can sit at my computer and stare at the pretty nebular in the background while I wait for the JB to charge up.
Red Pepper	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Originally by: Akita T The REASON why you can't small gang PvP is that there's no objective worth pursuing that can be accomplised by a small gang. Generally speaking, of course. Exceptions exist, but only serve to confirm the rule. So the only remaining (desirable) objective is to either destroy as many enemy ships as possible with as little losses as possible (blobbing on either side) or to capture territory (via, what a surprise, POS warfare, blobbing again). So, no, it wasn't WTZ, it wasn't the JBs, it wasn't the accrual of wealth and skills, it wasn't any of the speed nerfs. It's the complete and total lack of INCENTIVES to make people WANT to go out in lowsec/0.0 IN SPITE of the risks. This way, the only people you are likely to ever encounter are people who are fully aware of the risks but came prepared, and are bored enough to easily camp, because there's nothing else they can possibly want to do. Hence, BLOBS. Give people SERIOUS incentives to enter the lowsec/0.0 belts, give people HUGE incentives to leave the relative safety (and soon, almost complete safety) of highsec, and you MIGHT just get enough people who AREN'T part of a huge powerbloc with an extensive intel network and having serious logistic capabilities, so you MIGHT actually encounter something other than blobs once in a while. For myself, and the members of the old BWL corp (Before CCP disbanded us), the thrill of the game was the fight. We didn't need any other reason to log on every night at the same time other than to saddle up and head into 0.0 for some killy killy. Now, if we do this in most alliance's space, we will get a few jumps in and suddenly find a 50 man gang on top of us via jump bridge, and after the speed nerf (which I still contend is a necessary change) we won't have a snowballs chance in hell of escaping. If your coming for some "killy killy" then why are you worried about escaping? If you come into someone's space and they have 50 ships, guess what? You should have brought more ships.
Neesa Corrinne Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Red Pepper If your coming for some "killy killy" then why are you worried about escaping? If you come into someone's space and they have 50 ships, guess what? You should have brought more ships. First troll of the day! Welcome to my thread Mr. Troll. Enjoy your stay, but be warned, I shall not feed you.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne I've been playing EVE since just before RMR went live. At that time a small pack of 5-10 people in PVP, especially if a couple of them were in HAC's, was an exhilarating experience. ... 5) Upcoming speed nerf. This might well be the final death knell of the small gang. A massive nerfing of speed across the board will eliminate the small and fast guerrilla groups who enjoyed playing EVE by roaming through space quickly and catching people off guard. I don't get it You were playing EVE before it turned into Nano-online. You admit it was fun, but you'd know just as well as anyone that it's perfectly easy to survive without going 4km/sec in a HAC Nano blobs are what destroy small gang PvP IMO. No matter what shiptypes you have there's literally nothing you can do if your enemy decides to bring 40+ HACs/Recons; They'll be faster than you, You won't be able to hurt them, You'll die horribly if you attempt to engage them under any circumstances. Skirmish warfare is completely ineffective against such a blob. - Infectious -
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:12:00 - [46] Edited by: Esmenet on 13/08/2008 14:12:09 Originally by: Rawr Cristina I don't get it You were playing EVE before it turned into Nano-online. You admit it was fun, but you'd know just as well as anyone that it's perfectly easy to survive without going 4km/sec in a HAC Nano blobs are what destroy small gang PvP IMO. No matter what shiptypes you have there's literally nothing you can do if your enemy decides to bring 40+ HACs/Recons; They'll be faster than you, You won't be able to hurt them, You'll die horribly if you attempt to engage them under any circumstances. Skirmish warfare is completely ineffective against such a blob. 0.0 is not the same as it was 3 years ago. Vote against the nano nerf!
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:19:00 - [47] Originally by: Esmenet Edited by: Esmenet on 13/08/2008 14:12:09 Originally by: Rawr Cristina I don't get it You were playing EVE before it turned into Nano-online. You admit it was fun, but you'd know just as well as anyone that it's perfectly easy to survive without going 4km/sec in a HAC Nano blobs are what destroy small gang PvP IMO. No matter what shiptypes you have there's literally nothing you can do if your enemy decides to bring 40+ HACs/Recons; They'll be faster than you, You won't be able to hurt them, You'll die horribly if you attempt to engage them under any circumstances. Skirmish warfare is completely ineffective against such a blob. 0.0 is not the same as it was 3 years ago. Neither is high sec and neither is low sec. Yet you you've insisted that suicide ganking in high sec has remained constant throughout the years. Basically scissors says paper is fine but rock needs a nerf. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: Esmenet Edited by: Esmenet on 13/08/2008 14:12:09 Originally by: Rawr Cristina I don't get it You were playing EVE before it turned into Nano-online. You admit it was fun, but you'd know just as well as anyone that it's perfectly easy to survive without going 4km/sec in a HAC Nano blobs are what destroy small gang PvP IMO. No matter what shiptypes you have there's literally nothing you can do if your enemy decides to bring 40+ HACs/Recons; They'll be faster than you, You won't be able to hurt them, You'll die horribly if you attempt to engage them under any circumstances. Skirmish warfare is completely ineffective against such a blob. 0.0 is not the same as it was 3 years ago. Neither is high sec and neither is low sec. Yet you you've insisted that suicide ganking in high sec has remained constant throughout the years. Basically scissors says paper is fine but rock needs a nerf. Lol. Vote against the nano nerf!
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:33:00 - [49] Err... OP has a point but only a minor one. Biggest problem for small gangs is the advent of 2 major things: 1) Jump Bridges (for all the reasons listed) 2) Cyno jammers which allow alliances to safely capital blob anyone who comes to their space with little fear of any retaliation. Personally I hate POS warfare... And the above 2 changes made it even worse. But as to the rest? You are so totally off base it's not even funny. The other points made are so far from true that it's not even funny. .
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:49:00 - [50] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 13/08/2008 14:50:24 Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Akita T On the issue of the smuggler gates... what if they would need isotopes in order to allow jumping through AND they would have a short charge-up time ? they should require a black ops to operate. The should be destructable just like conquerable stations, those two bandaids have far outlived their usefulness. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As

Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.08.13 15:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Since moving into lowsec, it might just be the area were located in, i had alot smaller sized fights. The ones with 2-3 bs on each side, apart from the occasional huzzah blob coming up, but i guess youll get to know those and just avoid em. What im saying is, the small gang pvp is still there, you just gotta go and find it. sorry for thread derail, but... LOL at the implication you just want some good fights but the evil huzzah blob ruined everything. You were camping a ****ing lowsec gate with a HIC and 3 battleships. Exactly what kind of 'good fights' were you hoping for there? You were just sitting there raping anything that came through the gate. Toughen up, come into Syndicate and you'll get plenty of good fights, but you might die. /derail In Syndicate we get near-constant small gang pvp. It's a bit quiet at the moment cause OSS & Warmongers are pretty much dead, but their space will fill up soon enough. Sure, often we call for help and get 20 people X-ing up, but it's pretty difficult to refuse. Most of the time, though, we are in 5 to 10 man gangs roaming or camping, and engaging anything we can; it's a blast. NPC 0.0 is the best.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:06:00 - [52] I keep reading about the death of small groups. Then I log on with my friends and we PvP in small groups.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:43:00 - [53] If you look back on it, small gangs are the true creators of blobs. One gang wanted to beat another gang and they needed just a few more people... and then a few more... and then a few more... and one day, "WHAT THE LAG IS THIS!?" I'm sorry that you whine about it now, but the fact is big numbers help secure more space. I don't see a reason why a small gang should have an impact on large space and big numbers. Small gangs can wander and find other small gangs to fight... simple. I think you guys want to chestpop, fly into the heart of a 2000 man alliance with your 5 man crew, and pewpew until your hearts are content. That is absurd in my mind. Here's a list of what small gangs can do... faction war cosmos complexes lvl 5 missions war deccing low sec gangking 0.0 roaming What is it you EXACTLY want to do that you can't? --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:38:00 - [54] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Here's a list of what small gangs can do... faction war - GANKING cosmos - Not PVP complexes - Not PVP lvl 5 missions - Not PVP war deccing - GANKING low sec gangking - GANK...yeah 0.0 roaming - ALSO GANKING What is it you EXACTLY want to do that you can't? It should be obvious. We want small gangs effective in sov warfare, even in some aggregate part. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:41:00 - [55] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 13/08/2008 18:44:04 Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Vistilantus Please do, you will see that my character was first created in January 2004. And i am still the original owner. not old enough. Oh please. The man has more than enough experience to make a observation over the state of small gang PVP over the years, a observation I happen to agree with. Now if you wish, you and I can sit around and discuss how much better (LOL) the game was back in Beta, otherwise cut the trolling and respect the mans opinion.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne 4) Need for Speed. The first speed initiative took a little of the edge off of a fast moving guerrilla force. It forced a lot of the ships to make a choice between speed and agility, but most forewent the agility and kept going fast. You realize that "The need for speed" initiative was purely about making the game and servers run faster, right? It had nothing to do with in-game concepts. ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Corduroy Rab Xenocidal Uprising	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Malcanis It's odd how so very many people - in different corps - post that they want small gang PvP, yet they can't find any. I think you state the point near perfectly. All change comes from within. Perhaps more people would find small gang PvP if they actually, you know, PvP'd in a small gang.
Aria Selenis Minmatar AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Pithecanthropus Here's a list of what small gangs can do... faction war - GANKING cosmos - Not PVP complexes - Not PVP lvl 5 missions - Not PVP war deccing - GANKING low sec gangking - GANK...yeah 0.0 roaming - ALSO GANKING What is it you EXACTLY want to do that you can't? It should be obvious. We want small gangs effective in sov warfare, even in some aggregate part. This. Small gang roaming loses it's "fun" when it becomes a gank mission. Your only objective, roaming, is to catch miners/ratters off guard, gank them, then get away when the huge defense blob comes at you. You don't get a good fight, because you're sending a partial force into enemy space, where they'll be able to field everyone. Solution? Make "sov" work like influence does on the influence map. It spreads outward based on POS/Outpost/Other statistic holdings. Add beacons similar to complexes to the stargates on "border" systems (These may be sov 1, or sov 0.). Thus, systems can change hands rapidly and dynamically, to small gangs. But stations don't fall in a day, it's only the fringe systems... Then, based on fringe systems controlled, raise/lower the amount of fuel required for POS, the refinery yield of stations, manufacturing/research time at stations, etc... better if more systems are controlled, worse if more systems are lost. Theres a motivation to control your borders. Now: There is a constant threat. It's fairly distant from home systems; both sides will be forced to fight away from their home, rather than one side having a gang and one side having a defense blob. Since the threat is constant, and everyone can't PVP 24/7, these patrol/skirmish groups will replace the currently pointless roaming gangs. Small gangs are encouraged since both sides would be effectively "roaming".. moving about, without mass reinforcements, in smaller groups.. without camping up in a station system. And there you go. Small gangs have an objective, helping control their space and make things run more smoothly (or, to ruin the enemies day ), neither side has a home field advantage, and blobs are thus discouraged. ..Of course, we could make warfare about blobbing 600 people in a station system, shooting the POS, shoot the station, and then the war is over.. ignoring all non station constellations.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.08.13 19:56:00 - [59] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 13/08/2008 19:58:07 I have small gang pvp very often in FW but I often have blob pvp cause it is easy to make one. just ask for pilots in militia or corp chat and suddenly your gang is @50-100 size. I also often see random (5-10 in size) groups from own/enemy militia fighting outnumbered in low sec. I dont think the game is the problem, it is the player behind the pc. there are small scale fights ingame, you just have to look for them, not just sit @the belt and screaming for a fight in local, because then all those wannabe pirates will warp in with the blob because they want those easy kills to compensate the lack of whatever.


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