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Harvash Lonewolf Logistics	Posted - 2008.08.17 22:12:00 - [1] Ok, I have only recently dove into manufacturing and such over the last few months, so perhaps I just don't understand the reasoning. Why is it that every Installation HAS to have a 14-40 day wait to research something? Yes, I know, limited slots, don't give the player everything at once, etc. BUT: If the # of slots was based on a reasonable amount given a certain number of players - doesn't that change; a lot? Good grief, how bout you can rent a lab with your office for Cost Multiplier + 1 Lab per Level of [Insert whatever current skill you think works] as option, kinda like a Public vs. Private deal. I mean, somethings gotta give. I have a lowly frig BPO in research right now - and it will be ready in 39 days, thats just silly tbh. Yes, I have looked around for lower times, yes I have found some but I have worked in two different regions quite a bit - and frankly, I just think its outta hand. And no, I don't wanna put up a PoS, for crying out loud I want to research prints, not run an airport. Anyhoo, thanks to all that read this. Its meant to be constructive, and if it doesn't change, imma not gonna go emo or anything - just wondering the "why" angle.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.17 22:41:00 - [2] Originally by: Harvash Yes, I have looked around for lower times, yes I have found some but I have worked in two different regions quite a bit - and frankly, I just think its outta hand. And no, I don't wanna put up a PoS, for crying out loud I want to research prints, not run an airport. A POS is CCP's way of "fixing" that issue. If you don't want to deal with waiting, all you have to do is grind your standings high enough, build up some cash to buy the components then keep its ravenous mau fueled. Or you can contract for someone else to research it for you in their POS. Honestly, I would prefer that they got rid of NPC station slots all together but let player Corps rent their excess slots out to the public. Player run market and all As it is NPC slots cost less thanks to fuel prices, if you open more slots you might as well take High Sec POSs out of the game. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Johnathan Roark Caldari Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.17 22:50:00 - [3] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Harvash Yes, I have looked around for lower times, yes I have found some but I have worked in two different regions quite a bit - and frankly, I just think its outta hand. And no, I don't wanna put up a PoS, for crying out loud I want to research prints, not run an airport. A POS is CCP's way of "fixing" that issue. If you don't want to deal with waiting, all you have to do is grind your standings high enough, build up some cash to buy the components then keep its ravenous mau fueled. Or you can contract for someone else to research it for you in their POS. Honestly, I would prefer that they got rid of NPC station slots all together but let player Corps rent their excess slots out to the public. Player run market and all As it is NPC slots cost less thanks to fuel prices, if you open more slots you might as well take High Sec POSs out of the game. I would love to see that. Maybe not removed, but increase the base cost. POS-Tracker 2.1.0 Hosting
Pooka Caldari United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2008.08.18 00:35:00 - [4] And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT BRING THE BRIGHT STAR BACK!!!
Johnathan Roark Caldari Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Pooka And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. There are alliances setup to where you create an alt corp and research your bpo from the alt corp. POS-Tracker 2.1.0 Hosting
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.08.18 01:57:00 - [6] Edited by: Clair Bear on 18/08/2008 01:58:01 Wait times in any of the outposts I have access to: 0 days,. Wait times in public labs in Curse: 0 days. Risk, reward, blah. In addition, check contracts. Plenty of corps make it their business to research and sell pre-researched BPOs.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.18 02:59:00 - [7] Originally by: Pooka And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. The current system with with alliances is already completely risk-free. The POS lab is used as the installation for the job, but the lab owner never gets access to the BPO. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Baka Lakadaka Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.08.18 06:01:00 - [8] I'd like to see it possible to rent out POS slots to the public. This would make it easily profitable to run a POS, reduce queue times and cause some competition for high-sec moons. I foresee a time when even manufacturing slots will have a long wait time, if the player base keeps growing. Making it possible to rent out POS factories could be a viable option to offset this. ______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University. Now Recruiting.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.08.18 07:06:00 - [9] Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 18/08/2008 07:13:34 Me I think the simple solution to this problem would be to allow you to rent out POS slots. Even a small tower can have a couple of labs but each player can only use 11 slots so why not let other players pick up the slack; for a price of course. Adds new source of income as well as lessens wait times for research slots. Really though I would like to be able to rent out all my services. Rent out the factories Is not using. Allow people to pay to store things in my hangars and use the refitting arrays the only caveat being if they fail to pay up I impound their stuff (like corp hangars in station. No money? no access to the goods) -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.18 09:06:00 - [10] Its already addressed in a devpost/blog. We will get some dynamic prices on slots soon. Just like offices. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Commander Koen	Posted - 2008.08.18 11:12:00 - [11] join ZZZ alliance, all the research slots in the wooorld. seriously, we got a few hundred corps in it, so alot of slots!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.08.18 13:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Johnathan Roark Originally by: Pooka And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. There are alliances setup to where you create an alt corp and research your bpo from the alt corp. I might point out that T2 BPOs require materials to be researched, and thus can not be done via a research alliance alt corp. You can set up your own corp with standings or pay someone else to get you a corp with those standings, that you then take control of, keeping your BPO safe. People are spoilt though, a 30 day wait is far better than the old system, let alone places with less than a week wait. It used to be that you could not queue things up at all, and you rented slots like offices, so ALL labs slots were taken up, and new players were unable to research AT ALL. Even if you were willing to wait. Personally I would use the public slots in lowsec, much shorter waits. Or setup a POS, which costs, but solves the wait issue.
Atlas Elestra Titan Mining LLC	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Lord Fitz I might point out that T2 BPOs require materials to be researched, and thus can not be done via a research alliance alt corp. I'm pretty sure you can just supply the needed materials as well as the BPO. As for the trust issue....I found someone who researches my BPOs. I started her off with Ammo BPs and moved up to the more expensive BPOs. Hence Building trust and a business relationship. Plus if your really nervous about it you can use more restrictive contracts...
DeODokktor Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2008.08.18 23:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: Johnathan Roark Originally by: Pooka And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. There are alliances setup to where you create an alt corp and research your bpo from the alt corp. I might point out that T2 BPOs require materials to be researched, and thus can not be done via a research alliance alt corp. You can set up your own corp with standings or pay someone else to get you a corp with those standings, that you then take control of, keeping your BPO safe. People are spoilt though, a 30 day wait is far better than the old system, let alone places with less than a week wait. It used to be that you could not queue things up at all, and you rented slots like offices, so ALL labs slots were taken up, and new players were unable to research AT ALL. Even if you were willing to wait. Personally I would use the public slots in lowsec, much shorter waits. Or setup a POS, which costs, but solves the wait issue. I used to sell lab slots and offices way back when the moon was still half lit ;P... ahh, those were the days! as far as the "I wouldnt trust my t2 bpo with a corp to do research on it" uhhhhhh... no new t2bpo's are getting seeded (not even replacements afaik) so It's doubtful the person who said that was doing anything more vivid than dreaming ;)... The truth is this (simple as it may be).. a TON of items are perfect with 5 days worth of research, many things are virtually no waste after a week or two worth of research, copying is only done because people want to try inventing 30gazillion different items!... People excessivly use the slots, IF more slots were opened up then they would just see more people doing me:100 battleship prints.. Simple fix for it all... CCP need to allow POS slots to be opened up to the public!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Atlas Elestra Originally by: Lord Fitz I might point out that T2 BPOs require materials to be researched, and thus can not be done via a research alliance alt corp. I'm pretty sure you can just supply the needed materials as well as the BPO. As for the trust issue....I found someone who researches my BPOs. I started her off with Ammo BPs and moved up to the more expensive BPOs. Hence Building trust and a business relationship. Plus if your really nervous about it you can use more restrictive contracts... Not unless you give the BPO to someone in the corp with the POS. Which I think is the issue, no matter how much you trust someone in this game, it's always a risk. Sometimes that risk is well worth taking, sometimes it isn't.
Marara Kovacs	Posted - 2008.08.19 12:07:00 - [16] I think the whole point is that eve is supposed to be player driven as much as possible so pos research is encouraged, but at the end of the day you have several options: Wait your turn in highsec, go to a lowsec obviously risky but less or no waiting, join a research corp, get your corp into a research alliance or pay someone to research for you (get collateral for your bpo). I have a research corp that people have joined for exactly that reason, and am still recruiting, I am also thinking of joining New Eden Research Alliance, who offer a very good service.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Pooka And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. Nope, we dont expect you to have to do that, try reading around the subject a bit before you post, you cant get standing and get a high sec POS yourself.
Harvash Lonewolf Logistics	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:36:00 - [18] What about addressing the idea of rental units with offices and such. Appropriate limits , costs and modifier ofc, that way folks with a PoS still benefit but the newer or less "connected" guy can still get in and do his thing. This seems the only point not addressed in this thread, and was a big part of my original post. Thanks
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:01:00 - [19] Seriously, I don't see what the problem is. You could just convo me or one of the many other people that provide research services and we can satisfy all your research needs immediately. I can either do the research for you or bring one of your alts into my corp to do the research yourself. Or you could join one of the research alliances, like ZZZ, and carry out your research through them while keeping your BPOs in your own corp hangars. Alternatively, if you have the isk to do so you can set up your own POS. If you insist on ignoring all of the alternatives available then you can just wait in line for NPC slots. But that's really just a problem with you as an individual rather than the system as it stands.
Arra Lith HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:57:00 - [20] There is already option for POS labs to set them public and set isk amount for install cost and usage cost. The only problem is that option is bugged and its bugged since POSes was introduced to game :) You can select public-available pos-located lab slot, but when you try to install job there from station (with scientific networking skill trained ofc) it gives error that you dont have access to lab hangar. That access shoudnt be required - all mats and bpo should be taken from station and output produced to same station blueprint was taken from. Maybe its time to fix it ? So players can rent their labs and make money from running hi-sec pos.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2008.08.20 09:20:00 - [21] The bug is that the lab slots appear as available, not that they don't work. POSes are corp/alliance assets and can only be used my corp/alliance members. That was always the intended functionality. So the solutions to your problems it to: 1) Join a corp with a POS 2) Join an alliance with a POS 3) Set up your own POS 4) Make an arrangement with a POS owner to do the research for you Ultimately there are plenty of research slots available with no queues, you just need to work within the existing functionality rather than waiting for a change that may never come. If you want some research done, just convo or eve-mail me.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Arra Lith That access shoudnt be required - all mats and bpo should be taken from station and output produced to same station blueprint was taken from. The possibility of losing any outcomes / BPCs / required materials is the risk you pay for the reward of getting that research done faster. This game is all about risk/reward. Removing the risk would imbalance it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:16:00 - [23] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/08/2008 12:17:29 Originally by: Steve Hawkings Originally by: Pooka And you expect me to trust another player with my T2 BPO. No thanks I will wait in line at the NPC stations. would be nice if CCP opened more slots based on the player base. Nope, we dont expect you to have to do that, try reading around the subject a bit before you post, you cant get standing and get a high sec POS yourself. So every would be inventors should get faction standing to 5 or more and finance a individual POS? Maybe you have missed that but inventing in a POS require to have the items in the POS hangar, so you can't do that with a POS from a different corporation. Then there is the whole copy part of the labs operations, that don't work for people outside the corporations. There are plenty of changes to do before removing public labs slots can be implemented. And changes that CCP don't want to do.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Bad Bobby Seriously, I don't see what the problem is. You could just convo me or one of the many other people that provide research services and we can satisfy all your research needs immediately. I can either do the research for you or bring one of your alts into my corp to do the research yourself. Or you could join one of the research alliances, like ZZZ, and carry out your research through them while keeping your BPOs in your own corp hangars. Alternatively, if you have the isk to do so you can set up your own POS. If you insist on ignoring all of the alternatives available then you can just wait in line for NPC slots. But that's really just a problem with you as an individual rather than the system as it stands. Good advertising, but not really true. No one with some experience in EVE has so much trust that he will give his datacores and decryptors to complete unknown for invention or join a corporation and put his belongings in a common hangar. There are workarounds, but it still require a level of thrust in strangers that is not sane in EVE.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:59:00 - [25] You are crazy if yo trust someone you met in EVE.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Venkul Mul No one with some experience in EVE has so much trust that he will give his datacores and decryptors to complete unknown for invention or join a corporation and put his belongings in a common hangar. Very disingenuous argument mate. Of course no one is going to trust a stranger, that would be outright foolish. However there are many who provide research services that have long standing credibility in regards to handling high value bpo's belonging to other people. Or are you saying that everyone who provides such services are to be automatically distrusted for distrusts sake? If so, I'll put my reputation up against your paranoia any day. Of course I've had my reputation a lot longer so ... ... PS: At the end of the day, research is key. Do it yourself on the bpo in question (and wait for the slot to open - someday) or simply do it on the contractor you may be interested in. In either case, make educated choices instead of fearful or spontaneous ones.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Venkul Mul No one with some experience in EVE has so much trust that he will give his datacores and decryptors to complete unknown for invention or join a corporation and put his belongings in a common hangar. There are workarounds, but it still require a level of thrust in strangers that is not sane in EVE. Working with others is an important part of realising your potential in EVE. If you can't form trust based relationships with other EVE players then once again the problem is with you as an individual and not with the game.
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:18:00 - [28] They could use an increase in rental cost. The system as designed would work but the costs are just so low now that they're more or less negligible. If they increased the cost to rent those slots considerably, the cheap slots would still have a long wait but the expensive slots would be more available for those willing to pay for the luxury. It seems like that's how it was originally designed but over time I guess the cost has just become so small that the system doesn't work as intended anymore. This wouldn't put player POSs out of business either, they'd still be faster and might end up cheaper too.
Bad Bobby Ugly Toys Zzz	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Gimpb They could use an increase in rental cost. The system as designed would work but the costs are just so low now that they're more or less negligible. If they increased the cost to rent those slots considerably, the cheap slots would still have a long wait but the expensive slots would be more available for those willing to pay for the luxury. It seems like that's how it was originally designed but over time I guess the cost has just become so small that the system doesn't work as intended anymore. This wouldn't put player POSs out of business either, they'd still be faster and might end up cheaper too. Increasing the cost of the slots really doesn't solve your problem. It simply removes the NPC slots as an option for entry level players due to price. The simple fact is that there is no problem. Any kind of research you want done can be done without any wait using the system as it stands. It's just that you have to use player run facilities rather than NPC ones, which is exactly how the game designers intended it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:52:00 - [30] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/08/2008 15:04:16 Originally by: Bad Bobby Edited by: Bad Bobby on 20/08/2008 14:22:34 Originally by: Venkul Mul No one with some experience in EVE has so much trust that he will give his datacores and decryptors to complete unknown for invention or join a corporation and put his belongings in a common hangar. There are workarounds, but it still require a level of thrust in strangers that is not sane in EVE. Working with others is an important part of realising your potential in EVE. If you can't form trust based relationships with other EVE players then once again the problem is with you as an individual and not with the game. In any case this is largely irrelevant to the original post. For a person who just wants to put a few runs of ME on a BPO, you simply make an arrangement which excludes trust as a factor. The following options are all suitable: 1. You ask me to provide you with a researched BPO. I contract one over to you researched to your exact specifications, you pay me isk. 2. You contract your BPO over to me for collateral. I do the research and then contract it back to you for the collateral plus my research fee. 3. You join ZZZ, keep your BPO in your own corp hangar and research through ZZZ labs with no possibility of theft. All of these provide the original poster with what he requires without trust or fuss. And as already stated, don't work on copies, invention and T2 BPO. Return to square 1. Research in labs other people own (for those jobs) require trust and in EVE trust require to work with a player for a relevant period of time, not on a "per job" relation. Originally by: Bad Bobby The simple fact is that there is no problem. Any kind of research you want done can be done without any wait using the system as it stands. It's just that you have to use player run facilities rather than NPC ones, which is exactly how the game designers intended it. You see, Bobby, this statement, is exactly why I will not trust you. You are avoiding mentioning all the potential troubles and risks. As already pointed only the corporation owning the POS can do several kinds of research. Seeing how you are downplaying this give me little faith in you.

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