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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.19 01:02:00 -
[1]
I was under the impression that the CSM was formed after the t20 incident and one of their duties would be a type of oversight committee on CCP so that the players would not feel betrayed or cheated in such a manner. I bring up this issue with that idea in mind.
TL:DR version
A Daisho Syndicate member was caught in an isk-seller/isk-farmer organization
He alludes to account sharing but denies it
Said members account was banned and Titan taken by CCP
His friend claims that legal action is underway
I would like CSM to do their investigatory role (if they have one) or for either CCP or the CSM to give the players some closure on the matter. I'm not lawyer, not even an internet lawyer so CCP may not address an on-going legal matter, but maybe the CSM can wiggle around that? Either way, I want answers! I want the truth! |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 01:02:00 -
[2]
I was under the impression that the CSM was formed after the t20 incident and one of their duties would be a type of oversight committee on CCP so that the players would not feel betrayed or cheated in such a manner. I bring up this issue with that idea in mind.
TL:DR version
A Daisho Syndicate member was caught in an isk-seller/isk-farmer organization
He alludes to account sharing but denies it
Said members account was banned and Titan taken by CCP
His friend claims that legal action is underway
I would like CSM to do their investigatory role (if they have one) or for either CCP or the CSM to give the players some closure on the matter. I'm not lawyer, not even an internet lawyer so CCP may not address an on-going legal matter, but maybe the CSM can wiggle around that? Either way, I want answers! I want the truth! |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.19 01:04:00 -
[3]
Lastly, I am not a Daisho alt or whatever. Either CCP brings down the proof-hammer on this guy or else we get drama from CCP, either way I will get enjoyment out of this. I like reading the posts by people claiming innocence and then CCP crushes them by confirming they are isk sellers.
I anxiously await more rofls dramas. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.19 01:04:00 -
[4]
Lastly, I am not a Daisho alt or whatever. Either CCP brings down the proof-hammer on this guy or else we get drama from CCP, either way I will get enjoyment out of this. I like reading the posts by people claiming innocence and then CCP crushes them by confirming they are isk sellers.
I anxiously await more rofls dramas. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.19 02:02:00 -
[5]
The CSM does not have an investigatory role - they're an advisory council, not forensic auditors. |
Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.19 03:11:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 19/08/2008 03:12:31
There's actually a video on You Tube of the leaders of Daisho in a hot tub, smoking crack with Britany Spears, Amy Winehouse, and Three un-named third-world Isk sellers. You can actually hear one of them saying "here's your thousand dollars, dude, flying that Titan is going to be soooo awesome." Hang on, I'll try to find the link for you.  |
Hesod Adee
Militants of Xen
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Posted - 2008.08.19 04:36:00 -
[7]
If there really was a lawsuit, they would at least be able to say which court it was filed with, maybe even give some way to reference their specific case.
From those links in the OP I gathered the following:
- Someone takes ISK from an account that isn't his.
- He gets banned for it, and for looking like an ISK seller. (and we only have his word that he didn't buy it)
- He had a Titan on that account which was lost because of his stupidity.
- Makes noise about a lawsuit, but doesn't give any information.
So unless he proves that a lawsuit exists, the matter looks closed to me. As proof goes, I'll settle for a scan of the document the court gave him to confirm that the lawsuit was filed with confidential information (like his name, address and phone number) blanked out. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.19 04:51:00 -
[8]
Please, leave the drama in CAOD, or Eve General at worst. I want no part of it. |
Mia Archer
Amarr
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:21:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
The CSM does not have an investigatory role - they're an advisory council, not forensic auditors.
Yet this is the precise thing that the CSM was advertised as being, an insight into the internal workings of CCP for the players in the wake of the T20 incident and the drama caused by it.
The fact that the CSM is now nothing but an advisory council on new changes which tbh they have no buisness advising about as the small number of ppl on the CSM council can never properly represent the opinions of several thousand and from the looks of many of their posts far too many of them are guided by their own personal agendas over what the players really feel is warranted.
So you have in effect brought the drama from CAOD yourself by stating that the CSM is something other than what it was supposed to be. |
Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:23:00 -
[10]
Come on. This was a funny troll, but we're not really taking it seriously, are we?
Lets use our brains for a second here. Under what conditions does CCP, as a matter of course, take assets and/or isk away? Under what conditions do they ban accounts?
In the first case, it's because you bought isk, right?
In the second case, it's because you sold isk.
Player A gets 40 BILLION isk from player B whose alliance has been collecting it as "rent". Player B turns around and gives it to his alliance, who buys a Titan with it.
CCP sees an unusual, inexplicable transfer of 40 BILLION isk, follows the money back to its origins, and, hmmmm... what have we here? Isk sellers. Looks like both player A and player B are wholesalers, who brokered a large isk purchase by an alliance, doesn't it?
Of course, player A says that player B is a friend of his who just gave him the isk for no good reason. I'll bet in 5 years that's the first time CCP has ever heard that from an isk buyer/seller .
You have to understand that CCP can NEVER see the money side of an isk for money transaction. All they can see is isk moving around for no good reason. When they see that, they look at the accounts involved to see if there is a pattern of it. When they find that there is, they:
1) Remove the isk/assets from the buyer.
2) Ban accounts that look to be in the seller chain.
Which, from the look of it, is exactly what they did here. Moral of the story boys and girls is that if you get caught with your paws on 40 BILLION isk that came from isk sellers, you'd better have a better excuse for how you got it than "my friend gave it to me".
Are we done with this now?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mia Archer
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
The CSM does not have an investigatory role - they're an advisory council, not forensic auditors.
Yet this is the precise thing that the CSM was advertised as being, an insight into the internal workings of CCP for the players in the wake of the T20 incident and the drama caused by it.
The fact that the CSM is now nothing but an advisory council on new changes which tbh they have no buisness advising about as the small number of ppl on the CSM council can never properly represent the opinions of several thousand and from the looks of many of their posts far too many of them are guided by their own personal agendas over what the players really feel is warranted.
So you have in effect brought the drama from CAOD yourself by stating that the CSM is something other than what it was supposed to be.
Even giving them the largest powers, CCP could allow them to audit a employee activity, not a audit of player activity.
There are several privacy law that will make that illegal and in game considerations (seeing as most of the CSM members are part of some alliance) to make that unwise. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mia Archer
Yet this is the precise thing that the CSM was advertised as being, an insight into the internal workings of CCP for the players in the wake of the T20 incident and the drama caused by it.
The fact that the CSM is now nothing but an advisory council on new changes which tbh they have no buisness advising about as the small number of ppl on the CSM council can never properly represent the opinions of several thousand and from the looks of many of their posts far too many of them are guided by their own personal agendas over what the players really feel is warranted.
So you have in effect brought the drama from CAOD yourself by stating that the CSM is something other than what it was supposed to be.
Even if the CSM has an accountability role, that would only kick in if you're suggesting that CCP is corrupt in this instance, and I don't think anybody on either side is alleging that. I'm sure those who have been banned are alleging incompetence, but I wouldn't think they're saying things like "CCP just banned us because the GM responsible for bannings lost a ship to my Titan".
Furthermore, if 9 can't represent 250k effectively, how the hell can 435 represent 300 million? I admit, it's probably a stretch to call Congress "effective", but the point stands.
Also, what's wrong with people being guided by their personal agendas? As long as they're open about those agendas during the election, and from what I recall they all were, then that's what they're supposed to do. Jade, for example, got elected primarily on his vision of a different kind of 0.0 combat. Whether you think those changes are good or not, a plurality of Eve players liked them, and elected him to represent them and their favour towards those opinions. If he didn't follow through and attempt to advance those ideas, he'd be betraying everybody who voted for him. This is the whole point of electing representatives - you campaign on how you're going to act in representing your constituents, and (ideally speaking) are an honest enough fellow to actually act that way after being elected. It's the only way voters can make a sensible decision. |
OMGJITA
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:56:00 -
[13]
would be nice for the CMS's to ask CCP to put the incident to bed, however frankly dashi lost all right when they started taking money off farmers, especially if it was for rent, but i dont know the full story - but that activity is even worse than buying isk, your actaully helping the folks that have bought isk.
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Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:02:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Qual on 19/08/2008 15:05:38
Originally by: Mia Archer
The fact that the CSM is now nothing but an advisory council on new changes which tbh they have no buisness advising about as the small number of ppl on the CSM council can never properly represent the opinions of several thousand and from the looks of many of their posts far too many of them are guided by their own personal agendas over what the players really feel is warranted.
So, who did YOU vote for? I voted for Steel, and he is doing a fine job by my account.
If a democracy like this is supposed to work, people need to be invested in the election process and actually vote for someone they think can represent them well.
If your representative aint doing a bang job, vote differently next time.
Edited for clairity |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.19 15:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: OMGJITA
would be nice for the CMS's to ask CCP to put the incident to bed, however frankly dashi lost all right when they started taking money off farmers, especially if it was for rent, but i dont know the full story - but that activity is even worse than buying isk, your actaully helping the folks that have bought isk.
CCP is worse than ******, got it. |
Hardin
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Posted - 2008.08.19 16:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mia Archer
The fact that the CSM is now nothing but an advisory council on new changes
I just want to clarify something here.
CSM did meet with CCP's Internal Affair's team while were were in Iceland.
We had a presentation from them and then we had a Q&A session.
Several members of the CSM took the opportunity to ask very probing questions and we got very honest and straightforward answers.
From my perspective CCP HAVE put their house in order post the whole T20 scandal and EVERYONE in the company is now HIGHLY aware of the consequences of their ingame actions. Indead some staff members I talked to during our trip do not even play EVE anymore because they feel too much 'pressure' moderating their ingame actions.
The Internal Affairs team are consulted regularly by CCP employees regarding their action ingame and what does/does not cross the line and are now expected to play the game with a higher code of ethics than the majority of 'normal' players do!
In addition to providing CCP 'players' with advice on what is an isn't acceptable in game the Internal Affairs team also conducts its own checks on the ingame activities of staff members accounts/IPs.
I am not going into detail on how these checks are conducted - we were sworn to secrecy - but to my (albeit non-techie) viewpoint they seemed fairly comprehensive.
While I will not guarantee that a new 'T20' episode or similar will not happen again (sometimes people do stupid things) I am a lot more confident that the chances have been significantly minimised - certainly no staff member seems unaware of the potential consequences.
I would go as far to say that from what we were told about the policies and systems put in place post-T20 that CCPs model would be an example of best practice in the MMO industry - but as I have not had an insight into how other MMO operators maybe I am wrong.
Anyway in summation while CSM is more focused on game development issues and providing CCP with player feedback/response/feelings we have not totally abandoned our 'oversight' role.
However, with regard to the specific incidents that prompted this thread I will not comment at this stage as the dust hasn't settled as yet...
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