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Xanadu Grey Aurora Security Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.19 05:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Xanadu Grey on 19/08/2008 05:58:28 I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. Vulture becomes a drake, Eos a Myrmidon, etc. Seems possible to me as fleet command ships are generally less offense based- tier II field command ships would be a bit overpowered. i just thought of that and had to share it EDIT: sorry wrong thread
Viqtoria Caldari Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.19 06:24:00 - [2] wrong forum, wrong thread, wrong suggestion! in fact i don't know why I would invest in you, i'm out!
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads Ouroboros Cross Combine	Posted - 2008.08.19 06:46:00 - [3] It'd be great to get the tier II BC's into a tech II class, but I'd hate to see the fleet ships changed... The Damnation is so hot as it is now (I know, it's all about me now, isn't it... ).
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:04:00 - [4] My suggestion would be this: Nighthawk use the Drake hull. Absolution use the Harbinger hull. Sleipnir use the Hurricane hull Eos use the Myrmidon hull. Seems to fit more with the t1 hulls.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. This has been suggested and shot down so many times that it's highly annoying to see it surface yet again. In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Changing the model would mean you have to also change the blueprints to use the new base hull, you change the base price of the ship, you change the invention lines too, you introduce just way too much disruption. If anything, you can ask as much as you like to get NEW T2 ships based on the tier 2 hulls.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Serj Darek My suggestion would be this: Nighthawk use the Drake hull. Absolution use the Harbinger hull. Sleipnir use the Hurricane hull Eos use the Myrmidon hull. Seems to fit more with the t1 hulls. Hey, your sig is back. Congrats. OnT: I think it would be bad, simply because it's too much work for a simple graphical change (to make it truly worthwhile, the hulls would need to match the T2 bonus, and I don't know that that translates well). Instead there should be new T2 ships that use the new hulls; that way everyone wins.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.19 07:38:00 - [7] Touch my black hawk and die!
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. ... In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Didn't CCP "just change the model" on the Cheetah and other cov-ops ships? Personally, I thought the HICs should be the Tech 2 - Tier 2 battle cruisers and require Interdictors skill too but that's just another bugbear.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Kade Jeekin Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. ... In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Didn't CCP "just change the model" on the Cheetah and other cov-ops ships? Personally, I thought the HICs should be the Tech 2 - Tier 2 battle cruisers and require Interdictors skill too but that's just another bugbear. With Cov Ops they just changed inconsistance that could not be fixed prior to introduction of Magnate.
Algia Knightstorm	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Kade Jeekin Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. ... In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Didn't CCP "just change the model" on the Cheetah and other cov-ops ships? Personally, I thought the HICs should be the Tech 2 - Tier 2 battle cruisers and require Interdictors skill too but that's just another bugbear. With Cov Ops they just changed inconsistance that could not be fixed prior to introduction of Magnate. That doesn't change the fact that they did indeed, do it. So it is very obviously possible and NOT as hugely difficult as you would suggest.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:42:00 - [11] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 19/08/2008 10:42:53 changing a model requires, from dev point of view as i've done this work : - Creating new model. - Rendering that model to all blueprints etc. - Creating all the things needed for the model(collision bubble etc) - Changing the model. - Changing the model to all blueprints, market windows, etc. - Testing the model through(all) things. - Making sure MOST people WANT the model changed. It's not AS big a job as one might think, but it'll effectively be a job that takes a better part of the week for a modeller alone.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:45:00 - [12] I don't understand why some want a model change for existing ship that already have good, nice models, instead of wanting a new kind of T2 battlecruisers using the tier2 model. It would also screw up with the bonuses of the T1 ships. The Drake is obviously a missile boat. You want to put 10 guns on the model? It would require a model reworking, at the very least. Besides, tier2 BC aren't called "the poor man's Command Ship" without a reason. The gap in performance between, say, a Harbinger and an Absolution, is a bit too small to justify the T2 name. Unless you want to buff the hitpoints and DPS of command ships?
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:54:00 - [13] You're essentially losing one ship and gaining another ship that if you stay true to the ship bonuses and fit setup as you would have to for it to make sense then you could end up with some ridiculous ships. I mean, who the hell wants a tech 2 drake?
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:19:00 - [14] Edited by: Suze''Rain on 19/08/2008 11:21:46 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 19/08/2008 10:42:53 changing a model requires, from dev point of view as i've done this work : - Creating new model. - Rendering that model to all blueprints etc. - Creating all the things needed for the model(collision bubble etc) - Changing the model. - Changing the model to all blueprints, market windows, etc. - Testing the model through(all) things. - Making sure MOST people WANT the model changed. It's not AS big a job as one might think, but it'll effectively be a job that takes a better part of the week for a modeller alone. Erm, as a modeller, no, I'd say half of that is tripe. the models already exist, and would require a reskinning, which for the commandships is predominantly a texture alteration. as CCP, like any other sane studio will have the masters of the tier2 BCs still extant as maya binaries, I'd estimate that the metrics for the conversion of all art assets would probably take in the region of 1 day. per model, for one medium-junior artist. Tops. if it were creating from scratch, I'd say much longer, but that's not needed in this case as the master files are extant. and AFIK, blueprint and icon renders are pretty much procedurally generated by the engine, and therefore instant to change too. gameplay balance if you use the stats from the teir 2 hulls would of course, be much harder to work on and might take a long time of testing, but the physical art asset is an afternoon's work.
Siberys Gallente Nebula Sharks	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Siberys on 19/08/2008 11:20:15 Harbinger is more combat than prophecy. Plus black prophecy > black harbinger
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Suze'Rain Edited by: Suze''Rain on 19/08/2008 11:21:46 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 19/08/2008 10:42:53 changing a model requires, from dev point of view as i've done this work : - Creating new model. - Rendering that model to all blueprints etc. - Creating all the things needed for the model(collision bubble etc) - Changing the model. - Changing the model to all blueprints, market windows, etc. - Testing the model through(all) things. - Making sure MOST people WANT the model changed. It's not AS big a job as one might think, but it'll effectively be a job that takes a better part of the week for a modeller alone. Erm, as a modeller, no, I'd say half of that is tripe. the models already exist, and would require a reskinning, which for the commandships is predominantly a texture alteration. as CCP, like any other sane studio will have the masters of the tier2 BCs still extant as maya binaries, I'd estimate that the metrics for the conversion of all art assets would probably take in the region of 1 day. per model, for one medium-junior artist. Tops. if it were creating from scratch, I'd say much longer, but that's not needed in this case as the master files are extant. and AFIK, blueprint and icon renders are pretty much procedurally generated by the engine, and therefore instant to change too. gameplay balance if you use the stats from the teir 2 hulls would of course, be much harder to work on and might take a long time of testing, but the physical art asset is an afternoon's work. A reskinned model is still a "new" model, it needs to go through all the hoops and tricks as a "brand new model". You odn't need to create the hull, but the paint etc need to be replaced in all files and such. If you've worked in game projects, you know it's not just "an afternoon work". Especially with a game this size, can't even imagine. Ofcourse i don't count automation into it, like blueprint etc, but it's still work.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Suze'Rain the models already exist, and would require a reskinning, which for the commandships is predominantly a texture alteration. The problem is that the models don't already exist… at least not as such. Most (I hesitate to say "all" because I haven't compared them all) T2 variants have slightly altered models compared to their T1 base hulls — even though it's usually just in the form of added prongs and pods — but they can't just be done by a simple texture change. Yes, they can go back to the base model and add bits and bobs to it, but simply firing up PS is not enough.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Algia Knightstorm Originally by: Darth Felin With Cov Ops they just changed inconsistance that could not be fixed prior to introduction of Magnate. That doesn't change the fact that they did indeed, do it. So it is very obviously possible and NOT as hugely difficult as you would suggest. Nobody said it would be DIFFICULT. It's just a matter of a couple of data fields. The issue is it would be DISRUPTIVE, when it doesn't NEED to be.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Suze'Rain the models already exist, and would require a reskinning, which for the commandships is predominantly a texture alteration. The problem is that the models don't already existà at least not as such. Most (I hesitate to say "all" because I haven't compared them all) T2 variants have slightly altered models compared to their T1 base hulls ù even though it's usually just in the form of added prongs and pods ù but they can't just be done by a simple texture change. Yes, they can go back to the base model and add bits and bobs to it, but simply firing up PS is not enough. Good point, one that eluded me even
Wild Rho Amarr Silent Core	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Algia Knightstorm That doesn't change the fact that they did indeed, do it. So it is very obviously possible and NOT as hugely difficult as you would suggest. The main difference is it's not just changing the model, the stats would need to be readjusted and balanced so the new ship matches up with it's tech 1 counter part (for example a drake won't have all the turret points the vulture has and won't share the same t1 base bonuses that the Ferox has that are applied). Even just making sure the new model has the correct number and placement of turrets takes time. It's not an impossible task but it's a time consuming one simply for the sake of aesthetics.
GallenteCitizen20080615 Gallente Federation War News	Posted - 2008.08.19 11:59:00 - [21] i like my EOS .....DONT CHANGE IT it been nerfed anough dont need it being some crappy myr ship hull make another t2 BC but leave it alone the next thing you might see is a huge commandships protest gang come looking for ya
Korizan Oort Cloud Industries Ultionis Quietus	Posted - 2008.08.19 12:01:00 - [22] Edited by: Korizan on 19/08/2008 12:02:12 Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: Algia Knightstorm That doesn't change the fact that they did indeed, do it. So it is very obviously possible and NOT as hugely difficult as you would suggest. The main difference is it's not just changing the model, the stats would need to be readjusted and balanced so the new ship matches up with it's tech 1 counter part (for example a drake won't have all the turret points the vulture has and won't share the same t1 base bonuses that the Ferox has that are applied). Even just making sure the new model has the correct number and placement of turrets takes time. It's not an impossible task but it's a time consuming one simply for the sake of aesthetics. Well they did just change the skin with the helios. It definitely was not an adjustment to match a different hull. So They could do it if they wanted and leave the stats as is. Command ships are fine the way they are now we have already done the whole command ship adjustments game.
Neesa Corrinne Dark Destiny Inc. Send More Paramedics	Posted - 2008.08.19 12:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. This has been suggested and shot down so many times that it's highly annoying to see it surface yet again. In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Changing the model would mean you have to also change the blueprints to use the new base hull, you change the base price of the ship, you change the invention lines too, you introduce just way too much disruption. If anything, you can ask as much as you like to get NEW T2 ships based on the tier 2 hulls. That's funny, cause I could have sworn I logged into the game one day and found that my Cheetah looked suspiciously like another ship! I guess it's only ok when this happens to frigs tho, cause we all know no one really flies them anyways. :P
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. This has been suggested and shot down so many times that it's highly annoying to see it surface yet again. In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Changing the model would mean you have to also change the blueprints to use the new base hull, you change the base price of the ship, you change the invention lines too, you introduce just way too much disruption. If anything, you can ask as much as you like to get NEW T2 ships based on the tier 2 hulls. Not half as annoying as seeing you post yet more crap.
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:08:00 - [25] Edited by: Suze''Rain on 19/08/2008 13:12:34 Originally by: Sheriff Jones A reskinned model is still a "new" model, it needs to go through all the hoops and tricks as a "brand new model". You odn't need to create the hull, but the paint etc need to be replaced in all files and such. If you've worked in game projects, you know it's not just "an afternoon work". Especially with a game this size, can't even imagine. Ofcourse i don't count automation into it, like blueprint etc, but it's still work. yes, I have worked on plenty of titles the size of eve. (edit: and shouldn't be skiving off work replying in eve's forums ) and I'd argue that, certainly comparing say, the nighthawk to a ferox, the adjustments in texture are pretty much an afternoon's work - particularly as I'd be amazed if CCP dont have an art bible outlining the pipeline, and from a master file there's really only a few minor adjustments need to be done. the primary detail in normal/gloss, and even specular maps are pretty much all already there, in the master files, unless CCP are secretly village idiots. And I know they're not that. and a lot of the model part addons are separate elements "tacked onto" the existing hulls, rather than new geometry. infact, I pretty much recall poking around ccp's .tri files and finding the t2 parts which are presumably xrefed onto the hull points defined within the existing geometry. so there's very little actually 3d work to be done. Now I've not done the metrics for CCP's pipeline, but I'd be absolutely stunned if those adjustments would take a week. a day might be a bit fast for everything to be put together, if there are stopping points, but I know I've worked on products where that scale of adjustment in an art asset would be set as a day's work.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:11:00 - [26] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 19/08/2008 13:14:35 Originally by: Suze'Rain yes, I have worked on plenty of titles the size of eve. Now I've not done the metrics for CCP's pipeline, but I'd be absolutely stunned if those adjustments would take a week. a day might be a bit fast for everything to be put together, if there are stopping points, but I know I've worked on products where that scale of adjustment in an art asset would be set as a day's work. Would like to hear, out of interest, on what titles But, on the point, i did say better part of the week, meaning 3(slightly over) days as i take into consideration the artwork, implementation, possible code problems etc. Usually, there's a touch of coding work to be done in these kind of changes too. Not to mention that i think there's some text changes involved too. The "pimping out a ship" might be 3-4 hours work, but not the whole thing. The "modeler alone" part in my original was wrong though.
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Would like to hear, out of interest, on what titles well, I'm NDA'd on half of them so not on a forum. poke me ingame when I'm not working and I might give you a list.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Suze'Rain Originally by: Sheriff Jones Would like to hear, out of interest, on what titles well, I'm NDA'd on half of them so not on a forum. poke me ingame when I'm not working and I might give you a list. Interesting as NDAs don't apply to saying "i worked on this" after release But do send an EVE-mail about 'em.
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9 Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Xanadu Grey Vulture becomes a drake. You get my Vulture changed to a pathetic missile ***** and I'll join Sheriff in hunting you down!
Suze'Rain Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Interesting as NDAs don't apply to saying "i worked on this" after release there's at least one where I was'nt an artist but a tester (RSI from 3ds max, like everyone else, so off work) that has me NDA'd for another 5 years after release.... and I'd not say who 'cos I swear to you that if they threw the NDA at me I'd be in hospital at a month just from the ******* weight of the documentation I had to sign. grumble
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. This has been suggested and shot down so many times that it's highly annoying to see it surface yet again. alot like your posting...
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2008.08.19 13:59:00 - [32] Is it too much to ask for some completely new models please, I am getting kinda tired of rehashing all the old ones.
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:18:00 - [33] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 19/08/2008 14:19:29 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xanadu Grey I think it'd be nice if fleet command ships were changed to tier 2 battlecruisers hulls. This has been suggested and shot down so many times that it's highly annoying to see it surface yet again. In a nutshell, no, you CAN'T "just change the model". Changing the model would mean you have to also change the blueprints to use the new base hull, you change the base price of the ship, you change the invention lines too, you introduce just way too much disruption. If anything, you can ask as much as you like to get NEW T2 ships based on the tier 2 hulls. Um... actually all it'd be is a flag in the database that switches out which hull is created when you make the ship ;) Oh and change the graphic on the BPO/BPC for the ship ;) You wouldn't actually be changing the requirements etc. Remember... everything in EVE is just a DB entry... all they'd have to do is change the hull linked in the DB to the other hull and... voila... new ship.... oh and they'd probably want to give it a different paint job (which is just a skin). So it's not as hard as you seem to think. Stop thinking of hard coded games. EVE isn't hard coded, well... very little of it is... it's all DB calls. Edit: I do agree with another poster though.... wrong forum...
PR Hough Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.08.19 14:18:00 - [34] First of all make the EoS into a ship that's worth flying before changing it's hull.
Dosgar Caldari Rude Boys Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.19 20:16:00 - [35] Originally by: Viqtoria wrong forum, wrong thread, wrong suggestion! in fact i don't know why I would invest in you, i'm out! lmao
Mire Stoude Cash Money Brothers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.19 20:35:00 - [36] Edited by: Mire Stoude on 19/08/2008 20:36:36 Originally by: Akita T no, you CAN'T "just change the model". My helios would disagree with you, sir. I like this suggestion. The Eos is more like a T2 Myrm anyways.

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